Trusted and Trustworthy AI

In 2016, I wrote about an Internet that affected the world in a direct, physical manner. It was connected to your smartphone. It had sensors like cameras and thermostats. It had actuators: Drones, autonomous cars. And it had smarts in the middle, using sensor data to figure out what to do and then actually do it. This was the Internet of Things (IoT).

The classical definition of a robot is something that senses, thinks, and acts—that’s today’s Internet. We’ve been building a world-sized robot without even realizing it.

In 2023, we upgraded the “thinking” part with large-language models (LLMs) like GPT. ChatGPT both surprised and amazed the world with its ability to understand human language and generate credible, on-topic, humanlike responses. But what these are really good at is interacting with systems formerly designed for humans. Their accuracy will get better, and they will be used to replace actual humans.

In 2024, we’re going to start connecting those LLMs and other AI systems to both sensors and actuators. In other words, they will be connected to the larger world, through APIs. They will receive direct inputs from our environment, in all the forms I thought about in 2016. And they will increasingly control our environment, through IoT devices and beyond.

It will start small: Summarizing emails and writing limited responses. Arguing with customer service—on chat—for service changes and refunds. Making travel reservations.

But these AIs will interact with the physical world as well, first controlling robots and then having those robots as part of them. Your AI-driven thermostat will turn the heat and air conditioning on based also on who’s in what room, their preferences, and where they are likely to go next. It will negotiate with the power company for the cheapest rates by scheduling usage of high-energy appliances or car recharging.

This is the easy stuff. The real changes will happen when these AIs group together in a larger intelligence: A vast network of power generation and power consumption with each building just a node, like an ant colony or a human army.

Future industrial-control systems will include traditional factory robots, as well as AI systems to schedule their operation. It will automatically order supplies, as well as coordinate final product shipping. The AI will manage its own finances, interacting with other systems in the banking world. It will call on humans as needed: to repair individual subsystems or to do things too specialized for the robots.

Consider driverless cars. Individual vehicles have sensors, of course, but they also make use of sensors embedded in the roads and on poles. The real processing is done in the cloud, by a centralized system that is piloting all the vehicles. This allows individual cars to coordinate their movement for more efficiency: braking in synchronization, for example.

These are robots, but not the sort familiar from movies and television. We think of robots as discrete metal objects, with sensors and actuators on their surface, and processing logic inside. But our new robots are different. Their sensors and actuators are distributed in the environment. Their processing is somewhere else. They’re a network of individual units that become a robot only in aggregate.

This turns our notion of security on its head. If massive, decentralized AIs run everything, then who controls those AIs matters a lot. It’s as if all the executive assistants or lawyers in an industry worked for the same agency. An AI that is both trusted and trustworthy will become a critical requirement.

This future requires us to see ourselves less as individuals, and more as parts of larger systems. It’s AI as nature, as Gaia—everything as one system. It’s a future more aligned with the Buddhist philosophy of interconnectedness than Western ideas of individuality. (And also with science-fiction dystopias, like Skynet from the Terminator movies.) It will require a rethinking of much of our assumptions about governance and economy. That’s not going to happen soon, but in 2024 we will see the first steps along that path.

This essay previously appeared in Wired.

Posted on December 15, 2023 at 7:01 AM62 Comments

Comments

Nerijus December 15, 2023 7:42 AM

If the likes of Russia, Iran, Hamas, etc. have their way, then there will be none of what is described in this article…

Agammamon December 15, 2023 10:35 AM

“It will start small: Summarizing emails and writing limited responses. Arguing with customer service—on chat—for service changes and refunds. Making travel reservations.”

The future is personal chatbots arguing with customer service chatbots over a refund, forever.

Humanity a billion years dead and our machine descendants fill the stars in order to turn everything into chatbots in order to demand/deny that refund.

Clive Robinson December 15, 2023 10:44 AM

@ Bruce, ALL,

Re : Where First, then where.

“It will start small: Summarizing emails and writing limited responses. Arguing with customer service—on chat—for service changes and refunds. Making travel reservations.”

Nope…

With LLM’s and ML it will “start big” with Internet search engines, as the latest form of “grab all PPI for Profit”.

And it will “stay big” by being used in Infrastructure systems to replace manpower…

It’s when it can turn off the water, sewarage, gas infrastructures then shutdown communications killing most vehicles and signalling infrastructure and finally by time delay payloads the electrical grid, that we will finally know we’ve made a rather stupid mistake in puting profit before survival.

Estimates give a 95% loss of civilian life within 3weeks to 3months in the West if there is another Charington CME event[1].

Fortunately for society at the time of the Charington Event it was not based on information transfer by electronics, and there were very few ElectroMechanical devices. So in the main society was barely effected.

At the time of the Star Fish Prime experiment which gave the eye brow raising EMP event, whilst there was an electrical grid and it was significantly effected quite a way out. Again electronics by semiconductors was not realy a big thing back then. Much of the comms infrastructure was either lightning protected POTS “electromechanically switched” phones or thermionic valve/tube based radio systems, with highly tuned rejection circuits. Not so today, which gives rise to a new set of sofar untested issues[2].

In fact as we are seeing with the conflict to the East of Europe and now down in the Middle East, Cyber-warfare is the latest game in town.

The chances are that every piece of malware ever written and deployed has ended up in an LLM training set. Now add ML and a few unrestricted questions and you can see where that might go and more rapidly than nearly everyone can imagine.

At the moment LLM and ML systems “can not think” in the way humans can, and any potential concept they have of the world is near zero. However humans asking questions will cause ML systems to “tune” in that direction… So people asking about malware will “amp it up” and there is a good chance a “tail spin” effect will happen…

So I predict that ML will bring about significant potential for cyber-attack within a half decade at most.

What remains to be seen is which nut-job “Directing Mind” puts in place the required conditions for it to have very real negative effects on society.

Remember on mass we are “Three meals from hunger”, “Three days from death by dehydration”, and oh “three hours from hypothermia” in the shodily built homes in one quater of the Northern Hemisphere in winter as those in Texas found out.

Just about everything physical these days only moves with the correct information being communicated. So just flicking the off switch on comms will effectively paralyse First World society in less than three seconds. And start all those other clocks counting down…

Hope everyone has a happy “Winter Solstice” this year… It could be your last.

[1] This is especially true in continental North America and quite a few second world nations where most of the infrastructure because it was “done on the cheap” is above ground where it is in the charge field zone and thus gets massive currents induced that are sufficiently “Direct Current” that transformers and the like that take a year to three to replace ordinarily will get fried.

[2] Contrary to what many say CME events are rather different in their characteristics to EMP events. As EMP are “fast” events unlike the “slow” CME, there are basic techniques that can be used to significantly limit EMP events that “CME just won’t see” as it trundels through burning up by I^2R effects rather than zapping holes in those nano-thin semiconducter junctions by just fast rise voltage effects.

JonKnowsNothing December 15, 2023 11:04 AM

@Clive, All

re: Scraping and Fencing

  • Scraping

Google has started to delete vast amounts of data from “abandoned” postings in their data stores. Blogs, video, commentary will be deleted with zero recovery.

It is not really as they claim, that it’s dead information and they want to reclaim disc space; it’s that they do not want any other AI web crawler to harvest it.

  • Fencing

It may not be new news, but I read that Google will stop storing geolocation data in the current format. The change may take a while to implement. They are going to move the geolocation data store onto individual devices rather than holding it on their servers.

The first impression is that this is to prevent geofence warrants. Since Google won’t have the data on their servers they cannot provide the “inside the fence” data to 3Ls.

Of course, there are several foggy bits.

The 3Ls already have the geolocation data and can get it from other sources, they just do not want to advertise that ability and use Google for parallel construction. So there must be some $$$ dispute in play and/or perhaps an EU problem.

The other foggy bit, is that the location data is on the device. So all devices Android based will carry a full panoply of where it has been. If you add in some bio-metric identifiers Bob’s Your Uncle.

  • During the Dec 37 event in the USA, ExP-T did not always use his own device to post commentary. It’s known and documented that ExP-T often grabbed another device to communicate with his followers.

Clive Robinson December 15, 2023 11:24 AM

@ Godelfishbreath,

Re : A Karen by any other name.

“AI Karens anyone?”

It was once pointed out to me before the term “Karen” was thought of, that micro managers and similar only had two purposes,

They went on to say,

“Of some use to cyclists, if buried in neat rows face down with their arses in the air as somewhere to park a bike. Or as a hazard warning to those who deemed living in society had benifit.”

Apparently society says you are not alowed to bury Karen’s in this way as that would constitute a health hazard.

Some people realy do take the potential joy out of life 😉

Canis familiaris December 15, 2023 11:52 AM

@Clive Robinson

…and a Happy (Northern Hemisphere) Winter Solstice to you as well. I hope the New Years treats you better than the last one.

As for communication and Carrington events: a lot of current telecommunication is connected together by optical fibre. In my naïvety I’d hope that could reduce susceptibility to Carrington.

However, power networks necessarily use conductors. Is it technically feasible to install cut-outs that detect a Carrington event and isolate transformers? Losing service for the duration of the event, but being able to restore once the transient event is over could make a big difference to survivability. In my naïvety, I’d hope that power distribution organisations would have done this, or there is some sort of government mandate that they do.

The other long conductors affected would be oil, gas, and water pipelines, and railways.

What sort of length of conductor is likely to cause problems in susceptible equipment? I can see a problem if the induced current in mobile phone base station antennas or in mobile phone antennas themselves causes damage.

Canis familiaris December 15, 2023 12:22 PM

‘https://web-archive.oecd.org/2022-10-18/99884-46891645.pdf

Geomagnetic Storms

Schieb, P. A. & Gibson, A. Geomagnetic Storms, Office of Risk Management and Analysis, United States Department of Homeland Security, report IFP/WKP/FGS (2011)

Abstract

The present paper considers prospects for a future global shock caused by an extreme geomagnetic storm and its effect on critical infrastructure for electrical power and satellite-enabled communications, navigation, and monitoring. Following a brief review of the phenomenon and selected risk assessment examples, the paper describes a “worst reasonable case” scenario, potential consequences, and the current state of efforts to mitigate vulnerabilities and consequences. Many such efforts are operational measures relying on adequate warning. In addition to operational and infrastructure hardening measures, mitigation opportunities exist in the form of international cooperation to address critical “bottlenecks” in the replacement of extra high-voltage transformers.

Large Boat Enthusiast December 15, 2023 3:42 PM

Robotic replacement of White-Collar Jobs

ChatDev was shown on Two Minute Papers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zlgkzjndpak

AI Agents talk to each other based on assigned roles to emulate a Game Production Company.
-These agents made a basic game for 1 Dollar.
-One Hour of service economy labor costs 12USD.
-One Hour of Low Paid Programmers cost 22USD.
-One Hour of Highly Paid Programmers cost 60USD.

The big change that affects us all will be humans becoming more expensive than LLM Agents for any job that can be described as “full time computer touchers”. This means humans go back to manual labor. White-Collar jobs are decimated.

Erdem Memisyazici December 15, 2023 4:38 PM

This is the sort of hype article that does more bad than good that I was writing about in my last comment.

Thomas J Kenney December 15, 2023 6:06 PM

Sounds like Frederik Pohl’s The Midas Plague. Also, a touch of Vonnegut’s Player Piano.

Back in 1980s I read an article in Omni Magazine about a death, industrial accident, in the Flatrock Foundry (Ford, Dearborn MI?) mold warehouse. It was a newly constructed robotic warehouse containing the engine/parts casting molds. Huge cubic enclosure, with lanes for robotic ‘forklifts’ to retrieve/replace the molds. A worker was inside working on something, partially blocking a lane, and the vehicle squished him. Lacked proper sensors, IIRC.

Vinge and Benford are also good reads re: AI and robots. Simak, too, but he was optimistic like Asimov. Vinge thoroughly explored the drone swarm concept in his Zones of Thought trilogy.

emily’s post December 15, 2023 8:43 PM

Re: robot hierarchical mob rule

Development of the intellect and cultured sophistication are parallel to and require laziness. But this dystopia has been for some time now and will soon totally eliminate the opportunity for laziness, turning humankind into enslaved frenetic button-pushing and link-clicking idiots.

No Dice December 16, 2023 12:10 AM

Well, it looks like all we can do is analyse possibilities without affecting any of them in any major way with this blog being an endless source of frustration
So , if you like being frustrated keep reading on

Clive Robinson December 16, 2023 3:48 AM

@ emily’s post,

Re : Techno-outh of today.

“But this dystopia has been for some time now and will soon totally eliminate the opportunity for laziness, turning humankind into enslaved frenetic button-pushing and link-clicking idiots.”

Yup visit any College or University town / campas or shopping center / mall and you will see the hazard that is “techno zombie-outh”…

With Smart device/mobile clutched in hand, buds in ears, perambulating to an early doom with attention fixated to that pleasuring device they hold toward their waist with eyes cast down to it’s meager size.

Seriously I walk with crutches due to physical disabilities (yup plural). Thus I realy don’t move as fast or agilely as I once did… Just today I was out getting a few of lifes essentials for a “cupper-n-sarni” for supper and tommorow’s breki and less than a couple of hundred feet along the road a techno zombie-outh walked almost into me…

Luckily for them I’d already seen their near blind approach thus had stoped moving. Unluckily for me they got close enough for me to smell that their clothing was lets say not as fresh as it could be…

Yes there realy is still a sub-class we can call “the unwashed”, who these days unfortunately are tainted by the malodor of their consummations…

bl5q sw5N December 16, 2023 1:18 PM

This future requires us to see ourselves less as individuals, and more as parts of larger systems. It’s AI as nature, as Gaia—everything as one system.

This is a false opposition. The same human nature accounts for us as individuals and as social beings There is no conflict [1]. Any new superadded “parts of larger systems” begs the question of what technology is appropriate to our nature. To characterize a totalized artifact as nature is a recipe for total tyranny. There is no “one system” other than that we already have by nature. The suggested technology frustrates this nature.

1.!“We can’t put it together. It is together.” https://www.wired.com/story/whole-earth-catalog-now-online-internet-archive/

Winter December 16, 2023 1:47 PM

@Clive

and less than a couple of hundred feet along the road a techno zombie-outh walked almost into me…

This reminds me of the opening scenes of “Shaun of the Death”. The only Zombie movie with a realistic ending.

On the other hand. Young people around me are all training for half or whole marathons. The have withdrawal symptoms when they cannot run for a few days.

Yet another divide in society.

lurker December 16, 2023 2:11 PM

bl5q sw5N

This future requires us to see ourselves less as individuals, and more as parts of larger systems.

is not a false opposition, it just requires the individuals to recognise that they are a part of something larger than themselves. Accepting both halves of a dichotomy could be a difficult task for some in a polarised society. The problem with

It’s AI as nature, as Gaia—everything as one system.

is that Gaia can engineer around, or design out faulty components, but current AI models cannot. In this respect Gaia might be considered a tyrant, but Gaia’s ambition is survival of the total system, not survival of any individual component. AI (in whatever form) will need a much broader worldview than its current diet of selected scribblings. As @Bruce summarises:

[This] will require a rethinking of much of our assumptions about governance and economy. That’s not going to happen soon, …

ResearcherZero December 16, 2023 8:25 PM

@lurker

I notice that many people see equipment as very replaceable, with very little thought to initial purchase, and far too eager to quickly exchange afterwards. Unfortunately there is not enough consideration of the impact of impulse purchasing and waste it causes.

Many users do not run a full reset when updating equipment after a patch version change, and some simply will exchange devices, rather than investigate if it is simple user error.

Updating our firmware and rebooting routers occasionally, like responsible human beings.
Checking if EDR is properly enabled, and perhaps consider changing SSH and other authentication credentials more regularly. Making security a habit at least makes it more difficult for each device to be used as a springboard for attack. Less junk also.

There are a lot of people running out of date firmware on routers (that have known high rated vulnerabilities).

ResearcherZero December 16, 2023 8:48 PM

Effectively utilising that robot…

The JDY cluster is comprised exclusively of Cisco RV320 and RV325 routers. the “KV cluster” which appears to be reserved for manual operations against higher value targets selected by the JDY component.

The KV component primarily consists of end-of-life products used by small business and home office users. …primarily from Cisco RV320s and DrayTek Vigor routers, with some NETGEAR ProSAFEs.

In the most recent evolution on November 29-30, 2023, we observed the actor starting to exploit Axis IP cameras, such as the M1045-LW, M1065-LW, and p1367-E.

“because these models are associated with home and small business users, it’s likely many targets lack the resources and expertise to monitor or detect malicious activity and perform forensics. These models are all able to handle medium-to-large data bandwidth, meaning there is likely no noticeable impact to the legitimate users. Lastly, using infected SOHOs as a springboard in the same country – or even the same city – of the targeted organization allows the actor to bypass mitigations based on geo-fencing. Compounding these issues, the threat actors appear to operate during set timeframes (or conduct exploitation “manually”), run their malicious binaries in-memory and delete all traces from disk.”

‘https://blog.lumen.com/routers-roasting-on-an-open-firewall-the-kv-botnet-investigation/

“Volt Typhoon proxies all its network traffic to its targets through compromised SOHO network edge devices (including routers). Microsoft has confirmed that many of the devices, which include those manufactured by ASUS, Cisco, D-Link, NETGEAR, and Zyxel, allow the owner to expose HTTP or SSH management interfaces to the internet.”
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/security/blog/2023/05/24/volt-typhoon-targets-us-critical-infrastructure-with-living-off-the-land-techniques/

Living off the Land

‘https://www.secureworks.com/blog/chinese-cyberespionage-group-bronze-silhouette-targets-us-government-and-defense-organizations

long term access
https://www.wired.com/story/china-volt-typhoon-hack-us-critical-infrastructure/

“Chinese attempts to compromise critical infrastructure are in part to pre-position themselves to be able to disrupt or destroy that critical infrastructure in the event of a conflict.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2023/12/11/china-hacking-hawaii-pacific-taiwan-conflict/

‘https://media.defense.gov/2023/May/24/2003229517/-1/-1/0/CSA_Living_off_the_Land.PDF

Oceansalt gives the attackers full control of any system they manage to compromise and the network it is connected to.

Once APT1 has established access, they periodically revisit the victim’s network over several months or years and steal broad categories of intellectual property, including technology blueprints, proprietary manufacturing processes, test results, business plans, pricing documents, partnership agreements, and emails and contact lists from victim organizations’ leadership.

‘https://www.darkreading.com/application-security/mcafee-seasalt-malware-raises-its-head-again

Technique – APT1 controls thousands of systems in support of their computer intrusion activities.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYaTCvA2VLQ

Accessed government intranet, Liberal and National coalition parties networks, as well as the opposition Labor Party, just a few months before the federal election.

‘https://yoroi.company/en/research/the-arsenal-behind-the-australian-parliament-hack/

https://www.cnas.org/publications/reports/warring-state-chinas-cybersecurity-strategy

Titan Rain – three Chinese routers in the southern province of Guangdong

At 10:23 p.m.(PST), they found vulnerabilities at the U.S. Army Information Systems Engineering Command at Fort Huachuca, Arizona.

At 1:19 am, they found the same hole in computers at the military’s Defense Information Systems Agency in Arlington, Virginia.

At 3:25 am, they hit the Naval Ocean Systems Center, a defense department installation in San Diego, California.

At 4:46 am, they struck the United States Army Space and Strategic Defense installation in Huntsville, Alabama.

‘https://www.mandiant.com/sites/default/files/2021-09/mandiant-apt1-report.pdf

Cartoon: “I like to think of it as Chinese takeout”
https://www.cagle.com/jeff-parker/2013/05/china-cyber-spying

Clive Robinson December 16, 2023 8:51 PM

@ Winter, ALL,

Re : Feel the need for speed.

“The have withdrawal symptoms when they cannot run for a few days.”

Whilst I did run, it was for a fixed distance, to kind of “burn off” the stress of a day and earlier excercise that had not “hit the mark” so I could atleast get an hour or so restful sleep.

What I would wake hungering for was the sustained high energy output of long distance walking or high speed cycling.

My calorific input was near double you might expect for an adult male.

In part because of my physical size, but also due to my restless needs to burn energy I was ingesting as a side effect of a gastric system disorder. And also it turns out a heart condition that was odd…

But yes I would feel physically very ill if I was not “burning it up”. One compensatory effect when sick with a viral or bacterial infection was to just not eat… Sometimes for a week or three whilst my body dealt with the illnesses.

yourself… Back in the 1980’s and later “Running it off” with viral illness was seen by many as the thing to do part of the “suck it up and be stronger” culture.

Then a new malady came along that got called “Yuppie Flu” and was derided as being “all in the mind”. Basically it ment your immune system had turned on you… And you went down hard and stayed down for months, half a year or more was not uncommon, where you were in constant deep pain and near total muscle weakness all contact or effort was a source of hurt, sleep near impossible and depression a very large “black cloud” from horizon to horizon. So not fun times.

In my case the warning signs were repeated attacks of “labyrinthitis” which effects the inner ear and leaves you feeling the worst sea/motion sicknes you can imagine. It basically triggers the bodies generalised “toxic ingestion” response and it sure is not pretty as everything comes out where ever it can…

Eventually after much neigh saying the medical proffession finally said it was a syndrome and called it “Myalgic Encephalomyelitis”(M.E.) and later “Chronic Fatigue syndrome”(CFS). More recently there has been a push from the US to rename it yet again as “Systemic Exertion Intolerance Disease”(SEID) in part because you can in theory recover, but others suspect it is to be an umbrella under which to tuck “Post-Acute sequelae of COVID-19” AKA “Long Covid” and any other post infection sequelae “for insurance discounting” purposes[1].

Anyway I had it when it was still seen as only “Yuppie Flu” not as it subsequently became M.E. There is in the UK the feeling that we are going to see more and more of it, due to two things,

1, New pathogens.
2, Ontop of “bad lifestyle”.

It does not matter where you turn we are getting 24hour culture forced down our throats any which way money can be made.

Less than two centuries ago we were still mainly living one of two existences,

1, Poor agrarian with solar cycle dependence rythm.
2, Wealthy “of leisure” thus self chosen rythm.

We just are not made for the 24hour lifestyle being pushed on us. In the main to abuse us for others profit… And as with all abusive systems the consequent “victim blaiming” and “leave them at the way side” mentalities come into play.

There is the old saying of,

“The candle that burns twice as bright, burns half as long”

Which leaves the question of,

“How bright does the candle of remembrence light the night of sorrows.”

Some are predicting long COVID will claim 20-25% of the younger generation potentially cutting decades of their lives. If you look back at the begining of C19 you will find I was expressing this concern, that has now come to be…

It’s not just “the bank of mom and dad” issues, it’s a lot more and insurance based health care provably can not even remotely work with it.

Something the techno zombie-outh need to understand fairly promptly, or suffer the most unpleasent of consequences.

I had M.E. in a mild form, and it was a living hell for six months of my life. I have friends who are now in their third attack of long covid, and they to are in a world of hurt and exhaustion, some barely capable of breathing yet they are portrayed daily as “work shy” slackers free riding on the benifit systems…

Abuse is not just cheap, it’s easy to make profitable. Compassion and the required assistance… As some would say “not so much” which is why politicians are so fond of using peoples family as unpaid health care.

At the end of the day, you only ever possess one asset in life, and that is yourself. If you don’t look after it you will have it taken away from you. Buying into the abusive 24hour culture, is kind of like becoming a gang or cult member, your life expectancy is not good, and getting out unharmed near impossible.

[1] As I understand it US Health Insurance covers things as finite term/payment. That is you get cancer you get $XXX or YYYdays of alowance for life, and then no more. So no matter how many different and unrelated cancers you get… Under that principle lumping as much as possible under one diagnostic term will save the Health Care Insurance industry billions a year… Not that they will hand it back in reduced premiums… After all $47million a year and rising for a CEO has to come from somewhere…

bl5q sw5N December 16, 2023 9:07 PM

@ lurker

it just requires the individuals to recognize that they are part of something larger than themselves

In the sense that the individual has by nature an intrinsic relation to others in order that everyone may fulfill the ends of their nature.

But the formula of ”part” suggests some greater substantial natural being which requires humankind to curtail its own nature and be subsumed. Besides the fact that there can be no cogent argument in favor of this, it is an intrinsically totalitarian claim.

As far as the AI aspect, every human situation is new and requires prudential judgement, for which there is no rule or algorithm. Henceno machine artifact can ever be a societal governor.

ResearcherZero December 16, 2023 9:42 PM

@lurker

There are very interesting spiders in Australia. One of my favourites, binds leaves together using web to make a raft, then floats downriver before a flood to find a temporary new home above the floodline, and out of the way of water from swollen creeks running into the river. They are water spiders, quite big, short light black hair with a bright red stripe down the middle of their back. They hunt small minnows and waterbugs.

Most of the time they are very calm and sit about in groups.

If you light a camp fire near the river, the spiders will come down from the bank, big ones at the front with the little ones following, and they sit in a group around the fire with you. They produce a lot of web which is waterproof, and if you are kind and gentle they will give it to you. You can collect it using two small sticks by lifting them in sequence, one stick after the other, until they have laid a layer of web across the gap between the sticks. You can then use the web for things like adding a waterproof layer to a clay bowl, covering wounds, etc. The spiders seem to like dangling and giving up their web.

After finishing with the bowl, or if it breaks, you place it back where the spiders are and they eat the web from the clay. The spiders do not bite people either, they do not have large fangs, and are very friendly. They are undocumented and undescribed (by white people at least). They lived with Aboriginal people along the river for thousands of years, up until about 40 years ago when the state government stopped people camping on the river’s edge for any significant length of time, or anywhere “unauthorised” in the bush.

After the flood is passed you can see the spiders moving as a group along the river’s edge, making their way back up river to their previous hangout, occasionally dashing to pick up little treats they find on the way.

I miss seeing the smoke from the campfires. A signal of friendly people you could visit, hang out in the bush with, and learn about all the things living there.

Winter December 17, 2023 2:06 AM

@Clive

As I understand it US Health Insurance covers things as finite term/payment.

The US Health Insurance is organized to not treat (poor) people.
‘https://www.investmentwatchblog.com/nixon-and-ehrlichman-discuss-kaiser-permanente-in-1971/

Ehrlichman: “… private enterprise one.”

President Nixon: “Well, that appeals to me.”

Ehrlichman: “Edgar Kaiser is running his Permanente deal for profit. And the reason that he can … the reason he can do it … I had Edgar Kaiser come in … talk to me about this and I went into it in some depth. All the incentives are toward less medical care, because …”

President Nixon: [Unclear.]

Ehrlichman: “… the less care they give them, the more money they make.”

President Nixon: “Fine.” [Unclear.]

Ehrlichman: [Unclear] “… and the incentives run the right way.”

President Nixon: “Not bad.”

Which party was Nixon again?

Winter December 17, 2023 2:12 AM

@bl5q sw5N

In the sense that the individual has by nature an intrinsic relation to others in order that everyone may fulfill the ends of their nature.

The problem with human nature is that it has a pretty strong Us against Them emotion. For Us we are willing to die. And Them should be wiped off the face of the earth.

That could easily lead to external peace, cemetery style.

JonKnowsNothing December 17, 2023 3:01 AM

@Clive, @Winter, All

re: Kaiser Permanente Health Insurance

@Winter:

Kaiser is only one tiny little health insurer in the USA. Health insurers can chose what states and in which cities to locate their services and what services they will provide.

Kaiser is in less than a handful of States and in only a handful of large urban populations in those states. Enrollment in one Kaiser state does not guarantee coverage in another Kaiser state if you move there. There is a re-application process and normally it goes without hiccup but it is not guaranteed.

  • In California there are 2 Kaiser regions: North mostly the Bay Area but not all, and South the LA Metroplex but not in every city or county there either.

You can get emergency medical care at any Kaiser or other hospital but your primary care is in your approved district. It is done by US ZipCode. Kaiser works only within zip codes in any region. If you move out of the zip code or they change the area of coverage you can be SOL.

However, the point is, Kaiser is a teeny tiny bug on the floor of US Health Care; do not even think that it is representative. The reality is much much worse.

re: Health Cap Payment

@Clive:

@Clive is quite correct that there is a lifetime cap on medical payments, and all health insurance (private or federal) have such caps. It’s a bit tricky to differentiate medical standard care from capped health condition care.

ex: Kaiser does not do Medical Research. So if you are unfortunate to have a serious condition for which current treatments are no longer helpful and the only option is to become a guinea pig for a Big Pharma Drug Test, Kaiser does not do this. However, within every Kaiser major facility are specialists who coordinate and funnel potential test subjects into different research programs. The treatment regime may be administered at a Kaiser Clinic but you are not under the Kaiser Medical Plan for it, you are under the Research Test Protocol Plan.

It also depends on which insurance plan(s) you have: Self Paid, Employer, State, Federal.

Each of these has a core of care that is the same but the perimeters are vastly different. It also depends on which services you need along with the correct buzz words that may get you care you need.

Ex: Getting someone to help you at home. This is a minefield. It depends on which health plans you qualify for, the duration and most important the size of your bank account. If you can pay out of pocket, you can have as much help at home as you want. If you do not have funds to employ help 8 hours a day 365 days a year, things get more gruesome. Sometimes you can get help for a short while, sometimes you can get help up to ~30hrs a week, sometimes you can get help but only if you will die in a short while (aka Hospice). Some care will include assistance with personal hygiene and toileting or diaper changes but Hospice is prohibited from doing any of those items. Hospice is considered Medical Care, changing a soiled diaper from someone who is incontinent or bedridden is called Custodial Care.

There are caps on every aspect. Some caps are renewable if medically warranted. Some are hard caps, such as the number of days of Skilled Nursing or Rehab you can have per incident or per lifetime. There are hard caps on the number of days of psychiatric in patient care as well as in patient drug-alcohol treatment programs.

It’s only when someone has had to wade through the mire that they discover the details. I’ve waded through a lot of this mud.

However, it can be worse.

Health Insurers are officially using AI to triage health care.

  • ROBODENY

===

ht tps://arstechnica . com/science/2023/12/humana-also-using-ai-tool-with-90-error-rate-to-deny-care-lawsuit-claims/

  • [Health Care Insurers] using AI tool with 90% error rate to deny care
  • AI model nH Predict
  • UnitedHealth, Humana Health Insurance Companies

Winter December 17, 2023 3:26 AM

@JonKnows

Kaiser is only one tiny little health insurer in the USA.

The point is that Kaiser taught Nixon and co how to organize American Healthcare. Nixon did not want healthcare insurance. Kaiser showed how you could say you did give healthcare insurance, earn good money from it, but still not give actual care.

JonKnowsNothing December 17, 2023 10:40 AM

@Winter, All
re: Kaiser, Money and Care

No.

Kaiser runs a unique program of reduced health care options. The large health care organizations do not use this model. Kaiser is NOT successful outside of a few cherry picked geographic and demographic areas.

The Health Care Industry from MDs, RNs, Hospitals and Insurers all know how to make money. They do not use Kaiser’s reduced options and they make billions more than Kaiser does.(1)

You are confusing a National Health Insurance system with the For Profit Health Care System, which includes the Non Profit Health Care System (which is really for profit), in the USA.

We do not have a “Government Organize Healthcare” system.

We do have a small sliver of health care that is paid for by US insurance premiums called Medicare, Medicaid, Senior Advantage. (2) The programs are defined by the health care groups and prices negotiated with the Government. The same process for drugs: the prices are negotiated.

The only thing that comes directly under the type of control you have in Europe is our US Military Veterans Health Care, Hospitals, Homes and Hospice program. These are controlled by the US Military Branches and are not open to civilians.

Again, Kaiser flopped in many states and cities outside of their current locations. Yep they tried and they crashed badly.

That Kaiser can make $3billion USD on medically reduced health care only works in certain locations. The rest of the health care industry makes a whole lot more.

fwiw:

The reason MDs, RNs, etc work for Kaiser is that Normal Care is open M-F ~8-5. They get to go home for the weekend. The weekend coverage is in the ER and by contractor MDs and health care workers who are not on Kaiser’s payroll. They don’t have to hassle with billing codes and the complexities of getting reimburs-ement from the government or from co-insurance plans.

Running your own shop, fully self employed is a tough go but more lucrative. US Dentists resist being absorbed into this type of system because they make a lot more money outside of it. However, both MDs and Dentists outside of a closed shop, are still affiliated with one or more of the health and dental plans you can buy or get as part of employer provided benefits.

===

1) A recent MSM report that Kaiser made $3Bill from 01-06 2023

ht tps://www.theguardia n .c om/us-news/2023/oct/13/kaiser-permanente-unions-deal-strike

  • Kaiser Permanente’s recent profits of $3bn in the first half of 2023

2) Medicare, Medicaid, Senior Advantage all have different qualifying requirements. For Medicare and Senior Advantage you must be +65yo or medically disabled. For Medicaid you need to be impoverished and this program is administered by each state with different rules and eligibility requirements.

Winter December 17, 2023 12:18 PM

@JonKnowsNothing

We do not have a “Government Organize Healthcare” system.

That is obvious. The American system is well known to be the most expensive in the world delivering mediocre care while leaving many without adequate medical care.[1] Healthcare costs are one of the major causes of private bankruptcy. [2]

The lessons Nixon got from Kaiser were representative of the wider healthcare system. Selling insurance at that does not cover costs is an important part of it.

[1] ‘https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2023/jan/us-health-care-global-perspective-2022

[2] ‘https://www.abi.org/feed-item/health-care-costs-number-one-cause-of-bankruptcy-for-american-families

JonKnowsNothing December 17, 2023 1:45 PM

@Winter

re: The lessons Nixon got from Kaiser were representative of the wider healthcare system. Selling insurance at that does not cover costs is an important part of it.

Again, you misconstrue the exchange.

Health Insurance Companies can and do cover the costs of medical care. It’s done for the majority of cases. You buy into a health plan directly or indirectly and you get services for the plan you select.

The plans cover all the conditions listed. All of them.

What people do not read is the fine print listings. There are exclusions and limitations that are part of the contract. It is not hidden except for the 6pt font. It’s all there, right on the dotted lines. However, the majority of people never read the entire contract. They do not know what is In and what is Out.

It’s a common contract problem. Cars, ElMusko and other contracts all have the tiny print that is legal and binding.

The health insurance industry does not sell stuff they cannot provide services for, they are not in the business of fraud. They are in the business of PROFIT.

  • ex: Kaiser in my area does not have a full cardiac care unit. They contract with a big local hospital that has the full panoply of cardiac surgery and care options with the most up to date versions. Kaiser cardiac MDs have full access to use those facilities or Kaiser can authorize other cardiac specialists to do the treatment or surgery. Open heart to stents.

So, if you have a heart attack at home, the ambulance paramedics are online with ER Triage and take you to the nearest Cardiac Unit, whether it is a Kaiser unit or not. Once you hit the “stable” definition, Kaiser will move you to either their own hospital or a contracted hospital.

The fine print dictates when the move happens. If you decline the move, then Kaiser does not pay for subsequent services in a non-Kaiser facility. (1)

Kaiser does pays for the cardiac care but doesn’t pay for care in just any hospital or clinic or by any health care provider. It all has to be done in their facilities, by their doctors and by their designated care providers.

People do not read the contract; they go along until something goes CLUNK, then they get hit with the fine print (btdt).

===

1) anecdotal story

A person was visiting Europe. They were a Kaiser member and had all their proper documentation for traveling.

They had a sudden serious life threatening event happen while in Europe. They were taken to a European Hospital and received life saving surgery and care.

As required, Kaiser was notified of the event.

Once the person was no longer in danger of immediate death, called stable condition, Kaiser contacted the person+family to arrange an immediate Air-Evac Medical Flight from Europe to a Kaiser Hospital in USA.

The family thought the person should not get on the flight as they were gravely ill, so they declined.

Kaiser denied all future care for that condition until the person returned to a Kaiser facility in the USA.

You get one chance to get on the flight.

Luckily for the family the medical costs for foreigners at that time was near NIL. They did have to pay for hotels and living costs and visa extensions while their family member recovered enough to travel home by standard air flight.

lurker December 17, 2023 2:26 PM

@bl5q sw5N

For “some greater substantial natural being” I can offer no cogent argument, only the trite comment that the whole is geater than the sum of its parts. Is this totalitarian? I suggest that humans exist somewhere on a scale between totalitarian order and anarchical chaos. My reading of @Bruce is that he might prefer a little more order than chaos, but he would be on a losing bet against the laws of Thermodynamics. Any speculation on which way AI might move the needle on this scale is just that, speculation.

Winter December 17, 2023 4:55 PM

@JonKnowsNothing

Health Insurance Companies can and do cover the costs of medical care. It’s done for the majority of cases. You buy into a health plan directly or indirectly and you get services for the plan you select.

But:

However, the majority of people never read the entire contract.

The crucial part you leave out here is the price tag. People can only select the options they can pay for.

The result is:
‘https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2022/sep/state-us-health-insurance-2022-biennial-survey

  • Forty-three percent of working-age adults were inadequately insured in 2022. These individuals were uninsured (9%), had a gap in coverage over the past year (11%), or were insured all year but were underinsured, meaning that their coverage didn’t provide them with affordable access to health care (23%).
  • Twenty-nine percent of people with employer coverage and 44 percent of those with coverage purchased through the individual market and marketplaces were underinsured.
  • Forty-six percent of respondents said they had skipped or delayed care because of the cost, and 42 percent said they had problems paying medical bills or were paying off medical debt.

I am sorry, but your advice sounds a lot like “Let them eat cake”.

JonKnowsNothing December 17, 2023 5:30 PM

@Winter, All

  • There is no question that many people in the USA have no health insurance.
  • There is no question that many people in the USA have limited options to buy health insurance.
  • There is no question that many people in the USA have neither funds to buy insurance nor are there medical facilities or doctors in their areas to treat them.

This is not the same problem as your previous view of Health Insurance Fraud. Although, some insurance fraud occurs in all forms of insurance which at the basic level is a form of gambling.

The USA is governed by profit. If a company cannot make a profit, the government is not allowed to fill the gap. There are some exceptions. The US Government has to bribe health insurers to fill in some gaps, in some locations, in some states, in some cities and in some rural areas. These bribes are called subsidies both cash reimburs-ement and favorable tax treatment of profits.

We do not have universal health care. It has been voted down every year for decades. It is not likely we will get universal health care anytime soon.

The closest we got to some aspect of universal care, was during SARS-CoV-2 pandemic, and you can see how well the MSM and politicians think that went.

ResearcherZero December 17, 2023 6:31 PM

“There are tracts of forest all over the world that have been intensively managed for generations by local people, and that’s precisely why they are still forests.”

Indigenous communities have developed interdependent systems of agriculture and forestry that are uniquely suited to the ecological requirements of the land they inhabit.

They are also home to people who rely on them for their livelihoods, spiritual and cultural practises, and well-being.

https://e360.yale.edu/features/lessons-learned-from-centuries-of-indigenous-forest-management

[sound of chainsaws] ………………………………………… …….. … ..[and bulldozers over here]

“video showed their homes being cut down with chainsaws and ropes by park guards and police. They spoke of forced evictions and tensions with park authorities.”

In the Madre de Dios region of the Peruvian Amazon Basin, a company called Bosques Amazónicos (BAM) was paying conservation money to Brazil nut farmers. Buyers of the resulting credits included Macquarie, the Australian finance group, and fashion brand Giorgio Armani. Satellite images show that tree-clearing in the area has risen since the scheme began.
https://www.source-material.org/vercompanies-carbon-offsetting-claims-inflated-methodologies-flawed/

“preserving existing forests can have a greater climate impact than planting trees” 😐

It means doing it right. It means distributing wealth to the Indigenous populations and farmers and communities who are living with biodiversity.

The question is, did countries at COP28 get the point? — F**k no!
https://www.wired.com/story/stop-planting-trees-thomas-crowther/

What happens to the forest when you remove Indigenous people and their practices?

“We’re in the middle of a war situation…mass evacuations, the involvement of the military, hugely exhausted firefighting campaigns, it’s difficult to explain.”

Early estimates included only mammals, birds and reptiles, but once the insect, bat and frog populations are added in, a billion begins to look like a low estimate.

‘https://time.com/5758186/australia-bushfire-size/

44% of the total area burned by high-severity fire since 1988 occurred in that one summer alone.

https://theconversation.com/a-staggering-1-8-million-hectares-burned-in-high-severity-fires-during-australias-black-summer-157883

ResearcherZero December 17, 2023 7:07 PM

@JonKnowsNothing

That is very, very true. The promises of the drip feed have not delivered.

“higher health care costs than the generations before them”

‘https://fortune.com/2023/12/15/gen-x-largest-wealth-gap-unprepared-for-retirement/

“More people are becoming unhoused faster.”
https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2023/12/15/homelessness-in-america-grew-2023/71926354007/

Health – “lack of resources exacerbates those conditions”

‘https://time.com/6287597/study-homelessness-findings/

“It’s like a wartime death toll in places where there is no war.”
https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/ct-aud-nw-nyt-homeless-deaths-20220419-hzi5q4czqnfttdxlciua2p7gji-story.html

“What is it that’s happening specifically in the dark?”

Nothing resembling this pattern has occurred in other comparably wealthy countries. In places like Canada and Australia, a much lower share of pedestrian fatalities occurs at night, and those fatalities – rarer in number – have generally been declining, not rising.

“What has changed is the amount of technology that we’re surrounding ourselves with.”

‘https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2023/dec/12/why-are-so-many-american-pedestrians-dying-at-nigh/

Rural Americans face numerous health disparities compared with their urban counterparts. More than 46 million Americans, or 15 percent of the U.S. population, live in rural areas as defined by the U.S. Census Bureau.

Rural Americans are more likely to die from heart disease, cancer, unintentional injury, chronic lower respiratory disease, and stroke than their urban counterparts. Unintentional injury deaths are approximately 50 percent higher in rural areas than in urban areas, partly due to greater risk of death from motor vehicle crashes and opioid overdoses.
https://www.cdc.gov/ruralhealth/about.html

ResearcherZero December 17, 2023 7:38 PM

@JonKnowsNothing

A lot of people are becoming homeless in Australia also as prices have increased, with many putting off health care as they cannot afford it. The wait lists are also long. But at least we have free (no cost at all) emergency health care, so you don’t die on the street. And generally, the vast majority of the time, it works!

There is the slight chance of drowning, or burning, but most of the time you will survive.
It is a horribly stark comparison. 🙁

“Households with more wealth saw an increase in wealth of about $57,800 from 2019 to 2021.”

Richer households added $172,000 to their net worth.

The poor got f’ all during the pandemic ($500)!

‘https://www.pewresearch.org/race-ethnicity/2023/12/04/wealth-surged-in-the-pandemic-but-debt-endures-for-poorer-black-and-hispanic-families/

Manhattan now has “the biggest income gap of any large county in the country.”

The wealthiest fifth of people living in the borough earned an average of $545,549, while the bottom 20% earned an average of $10,259, according to the report.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/28/nyregion/nyc-income-gap-wages.html

“We basically have lost 20 years of gains.”

U.S. life expectancy rose in 2022, but not enough to erase the pandemic.

‘https://apnews.com/article/what-is-us-life-expectancy-2022-de21ba7085f1aa0f05ed2df78faa964d

Clive Robinson December 17, 2023 9:00 PM

@ egregore,

Oh dear, we went through this “egregore” stuff back in the 70’s with the ideas of “Chaos Magic” and the “Gnostic –non conscious– State” where the “Kia” –egregore equivalent– could be tapped via the likes of “jupiter sigils”[1]…

It hung in via “New Age” woo-hu and other altered state / out of body stuff and flowwed into yoga / meditation via tantric cosmology etc.

[1] Don’t ask… Let’s just say it’s a form of written spell sealed in a way Onan seen from a modern perspective would have appreciated…

Jon (a different Jon) December 17, 2023 10:45 PM

It will automatically order supplies, as well as coordinate final product shipping.

Quite honestly, this is old hat – it first showed up in 1994 as one of the very first identified Y2K problems.

A large grocery chain’s warehouse had an automatic ordering system. As items were removed (in this case canned tomatoes) it would automatically order more.

It also had the feature that expired goods would be discarded – and issue warehouse orders accordingly.

As it happens, canned tomatoes have a very long shelf life – in this case about six years – and so the new canned tomatoes started coming in with expiration dates in the year 2000.

The warehouse software was not Y2K compliant, read those expiration dates as [19]”00″, declared them very expired, and issued orders to remove and discard them. Then it realized it was low on canned tomatoes, and would order more – that when they arrived were deemed expired, and discarded, over and over again.

Presumably the warehouse workers may have felt something weird going on, but it wasn’t until the wholesale canned tomato distributor noticed vast orders coming from this particular grocery chain warehouse, and asked about “What’s with all these tomatoes?” that high-enough level management looked into it and found out exactly what was going on.

I suspect we will see a lot more of this sort of thing as AI ramps up.

J.

bl5q sw5N December 17, 2023 11:01 PM

@ lurker @ Winter

the whole is geater than the sum of its parts

The terms “whole”, “greater”, “sum”, “part” are said in many ways.It seems better to just say working together we can achieve more than each alone, and in fact things that would be for the most part impossible alone.

humans exist somewhere on a scale between totalitarian order and anarchical chaos

The problem with human nature is that it has a pretty strong Us against Them emotion

Human nature includes the power to know truth, that is, what exists i.e. has being. What has being is good. Evil is always an absence of some good, that is, an absence of being. So we are by nature inclined to being, that is, to the good, that is, we are inclined by nature to virtue.

Where do all the problems and evils we experience come from then ? Though we are by nature inclined to truth we have free choice and can choose something besides what the primary inclinations of nature through reason would prompt. In doing this we are going against reason and bringing about an absence of being, i.e. an evil. The more this choice is made the more we diminish our inclination to good.

So the correction must come from within. It doesn’t seem to offer insight to simply say we need to be more interconnected or group minded.

ResearcherZero December 18, 2023 1:12 AM

Being struck in the eye with an intensely bright headlight can momentarily “blind”.

Far and away, the most common issue raised by readers was the concern that brighter LED headlights — while meant to help drivers — can also be blinding for oncoming cars or pedestrians.

‘https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/14/upshot/pedestrian-deaths-cars-night.html

“These smart lights, known as Adaptive Driving Beam (ADB) headlights, use sensors to automatically change the shape, brightness and direction of their light without reducing drivers’ visibility.”

Because adaptive headlights keep the bright lights off of pedestrians and other drivers, it’s easier for people walking to stay out of the way and for other drivers to see where they’re going.

Adaptive driving beam headlight systems, or ADB, use automatic headlight beam switching technology to shine less light on occupied areas of the road and more light on unoccupied areas. This final rule will improve safety for pedestrians and bicyclists by making them more visible at night, and will help prevent crashes by better illuminating animals and objects in and along the road. (once the majority of vehicles eventually have them)
https://www.autoweek.com/news/technology/a36031601/heres-how-smart-headlights-work/

Winter December 18, 2023 4:33 AM

@JonKnowsNothing

This is not the same problem as your previous view of Health Insurance Fraud.

That must be a misunderstanding. I have never even wanted to suggest that what Kaiser et al did was not perfectly legal in any way. I think they followed the law to the last iota.

There was also absolutely no need to get involved in fraud. American contracts are unreadable by itself, consumers had no lawyers to evaluate the contracts, they lacked the knowledge about what was important or likely to happen, and they did not have the money to pay for the “comprehensive” plan anyway.

You yourself described these practices perfectly well.

JonKnowsNothing December 18, 2023 5:54 AM

@Winter, All

re: The Failure of Consumer Protection

One of the main issues with contracts, global or domestic, is they are complex legal documents that ordinary people cannot understand.

In the USA, we often get a one or two page summary of 40-100 pages of dense legal conditions. It doesn’t matter what we want to buy: a car, a house, a computer, stocks, bonds, savings accounts, insurance of all types, and the rest of our Western Economic paraphernalia, the contracts are designed by the seller to maximize profits and minimize costs or potential costs.

They contain many surprises, and most of them unpleasant where decades after we purchase a future benefit, we find out there is nothing at all in the bag (retirement savings, 401K, vested savings, company matching).

This system is maintained by laws, governments and social norms.

Big Tech maintains a huge shield wall of contract conditions: TOS, EULA, CoC and more. They can change this contract at whim and consumers have no protection at all.

  • Starting Dec 2023, Google has decided, by virtue of a small change in their TOS, that any account not logged in for 2 years (24 months) or which does not have a permanent auto-pay subscription, is subject to purge. It is a giant erasure of world thought.

Yet, who can stop it? No One.

Sometimes, we do not really comprehend what the contract is about.

  • In Health Care, the primary concern of families with children is that the children get to see a MD when they are sick. As children average at least one sickness every month (snotty nose and fever), parents focus on that aspect of the contract. They do not understand what impacts themselves until an illness or condition fells them in their tracks or a life changing event happens to them.

These issues are not criminal in nature, they are civil and social related. We also make the error of judgement that things in other areas are the same as our local knowledge

  • UK drives on the left side of the road.
  • Women is parts of the Middle East and Asia cannot go out without full covering and male escort.
  • Items maybe legal here but even with assurance that “it’s OK” there, it may not be. You end up with a decade long sentence or perhaps the death penalty. Sometimes you don’t have to do anything at all to be restrained and detained.

Business of all sorts, High Tech included, dislike any consumer protection.

  • ElMusko doesn’t want to acknowledge the danger his self driving car presents.
  • Auto-Taxi companies hide when their Vision System can’t tell a pedestrian from a bicycle or knocks down a pedestrian and then parks on top of them.

Companies demand indemnification all the time.

  • The Sackler’s got a free pass for their personal fortunes as part of their deal; not everyone is satisfied and SCOTUS will get involved soon. However, SCOTUS defends property and wealth, it does not defend the injured or the disadvantaged.

The only thing consumers can do is share knowledge. We do it here on this blog and we do it when we explain something to others. There are gag laws to prevent the spread of such knowledge. So it’s not easy to pass along “learned information”.

We are up against mighty engine of western economies, the zero sum game directed to take value from our pockets and put it into the coffers of the already wealthy. We are constantly told things about products (puffery) that are only partially true, and we are willing to believe in those assertions and trade our value for it. As individuals we are less able to discern the shifting patterns in The Fine Print. We are not even in agreement if something is Not Right, especially if it Works For Me.

It’s a huge problem for everyone.

RL tl;dr

I try to inform people about the various shifts in economics as they age. The USA focuses on young people, who are lead to believe that what they have will continue to be the same as they get older.

There are lots of things that get in the way of that.

One of them is the assumption that they will be able to finance or refinance a house. Once they retire and have NO INCOME the rules of banking Debt/Equity Ratios kick in harder.

If they are independently wealthy this is not much of a problem, however large numbers of people will have their income plummet at retirement. With the death or loss of a spouse, income falls 50% again. What was OK with 2 people is now barely survivable with 1.

So before you retire, whatever you have as an asset, make plans on how to keep it. How will you pay the property tax with No Income?

It will be harder to get loans, credit and financing. At 30, 40, 50 it isn’t too bad. At 70, 80, 90 it will be much harder to do.

It’s in the fine print of many contracts, that they expire with age. The current version is called Reverse Mortgage. The fine print can be a nasty surprise at 80yo when you are evicted from what was your home and it now belongs to the financing company.

Or, you find your life insurance term policy ends at 80yo. When you bought it at 30yo, you didn’t think about it ending. At 60, 70 you hope that that policy will pay for your funeral. But at 80yrs+1minute the policy ends.

Winter December 18, 2023 10:28 AM

@JonKnowsNothing

The only thing consumers can do is share knowledge.

Re: Consumer protection

Consumers can also force the institution of Consumer Protection Laws. That works wonders.

When I, as a consumer, buy something in, eg, the Netherlands, I can pretty much ignore almost all of the print. There are laws stating my rights, the time I have to undo the sale without questions asked, the guarantee time, rules of delivery etc.. The print they let me sign is simply not binding if it goes against these laws.

Now, I know that the industry predicts that downfall of the economy if this would ever be enforced, but hey, we still have goods that are often cheaper and better than most Americans can buy.

JonKnowsNothing December 18, 2023 11:46 AM

@Winter, All

re: Consumer Protection

Consider:

We think of consumer protection as something that protects “us” from something we purchase or acquire that is “not as advertised”.

Yet we in the the High Tech industry, churn out crap code and shoddy goods in exchange for big bucks and a G$$ bus ride to work. We churn out faulty code which is accounted in all the bug databases of the world. It’s not a guess that we produce it, it’s hard facts listed in details of what does not work.

“We” (individually and collectively) as a part of the high tech industry bury our own contributions under “We will fix it in the next release”; which is a way to pretend we are not culpable for bad intentions and the bad outcomes.

Every single programmer is responsible for the failure of internet security and protocols, malware and catastrophic failures, because WE ALL HAD A CHANCE TO DO SOMETHING and we did not.

It is not that hard to look around the bullpen and know which programmers do not test their own code. Not even a sanity test. All they are interested in is their next espresso.

Of course Management bears the largest portion of this assignment. Yet it is the person tasked with a project that results in death, destruction, lies, deceit and fraud.

  • Do you think we even notice?

WE are the people that consumers need protection from.

Consider:

In the recent dust up at OpenAI there were 2 board members and 50 employees who stood against the production of crap code and crap results. They asked to Go Slow and fix what can be fixed to make OpenAI a Tool that is useful.

700 voted for crap and the current board voted for crap.

So, who is to blame for the Stochastic Parrot Tech-Washed as useful?

It is the entire tech industry that steals and cheats its way to take value from consumers and put it in their own pockets.

There will be new Mega-Mac-Mansions built. The people who live in them won’t worry too much. Let the Sacklers take the fall.

lurker December 18, 2023 1:02 PM

@bl5q sw5N

Though we are by nature inclined to truth we have free choice …

This has been known for at least two and a half millenia. Confucian morality was adapted in the Song dynasty[1] for teaching children:

People at birth are naturally good,
Their natures are similar, but their habits make them different.

So the correction must come from within.

The Three Character Classic went on to suggest that proper teaching methods could reduce the tendency towards evil. There is a lack of evidence that autodidacts are any less evil than those taught through social interaction. A correction from within would seem to be an evolutionary phenomenon, which might be rather slow and unpredictable. The introduction of AI into the process offers the possibility of a Vinge-like disruption.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Character_Classic

bl5q sw5N December 18, 2023 1:34 PM

@ lurker

autodidacts

By “correction from within” I meant only that the individual person has to correct their inclination to evil. How they accomplish this might involve self reflection, counsel from others (a social interaction), etc. Strict autodidact wasn’t intended.

Winter December 18, 2023 2:30 PM

@JonKnowsNothing

WE are the people that consumers need protection from.

I don’t think so.

As an outsider who has never worked in any capacity on code with widespread use, I still observe that the power to decide what gets released, and what quality control is applied, lies in the hands of non-coding executives.

The only real “vote” the developers and DevOps have seems to be with their feet.

Jon (a different Jon) December 18, 2023 3:03 PM

@ JonKnowsNothing

Yet we in the the High Tech industry, churn out crap code and shoddy goods in exchange for big bucks and a G$$ bus ride to work. We churn out faulty code which is accounted in all the bug databases of the world. It’s not a guess that we produce it, it’s hard facts listed in details of what does not work.

Do keep in mind that the software industry is a wacky outlier in terms of responsibilities of the manufacturers.

People who build bridges don’t get a “do-over”. When something goes wrong in skyscraper construction, or shipbuilding design, or nuclear power plants… Lots of inspections happen, what went wrong and who went wrong is identified, and on we go (whether they get appropriately punished or not is a different matter), preferably with new regulations and inspections required to prevent it from happening again. “Software” isn’t like that.

Even cars get recalled when found buggy, and the manufacturers pay for repairs. Software? Hee hee.

Mostly (imho) because it’s a young industry. When shipbuilding was young, there were a lot of badly faulty designs out there. Over time, it became clear that certain regulations and restrictions and qualifications were required.

JonKnowsNothing December 18, 2023 3:03 PM

@Winter, All

We will probably not agree on this issue.

Anyone who works in, for or serves any company, corporation or organization that engages in Consumer Fraud is culpable.

If you are in science and you set your modeling on the 80-20 standard deviation, you are culpable to the 20% you exclude. It does not matter what aspect or the reasoning (aka excuses), you have make a fraudulent assertion that is backed by pages and pages of very fine print of “side effects and when to call your doctor”. It’s a form of consumer fraud.

If you are in high-tech and you skimp on your project so you can have a long 3day weekend and leave “just a bit of checking” undone, you are culpable too. Because somewhere in the list of bugs, you are informed of “what doesn’t work but we will say it does”. It’s a bigger type of group conspiracy that gets accepted as Trade Secret. The Secret is You Know it does not work. (1)

Medical Care workers, know that outside of hard triage there is a soft triage in play. A list of under treated conditions. A recent MSM report on UTI and how women are shunted aside for this condition and given the wrong treatments (antibiotics). (2) There are a lot of such conditions and it’s only later, after things get very nasty, that the consumer finds out.

Our society is riddled with the purveyors of shoddy and dangerous goods and WE are part of the mechanism.

Yes, people can vote with their feet and sometimes with their wallet, but only if they spend time thinking about what they are really doing to themselves, their families and the planet.

===

1) Anecdote.

A major high-tech company selling huge expensive software packages to mega corporations had correctly and completely added encryption and did a pretty good job of vetting the code. It was not bug free but it Mostly Worked.

The long standing problem was in the backup module.

Dutifully customer admins did the required backups and archiving of the data. All went as expected.

The issue was: Not a single one of those backups could be restored.

2)
ht tps://www.theguardia n. com/society/2023/dec/17/millions-of-women-are-suffering-who-dont-have-to-why-its-time-to-end-the-misery-of-utis

  • Women are 30 times more likely to get a urinary tract infection than men
  • [UK] In the past five years, there were 1.8m hospital admissions involving UTIs in England
  • the brunt is borne by older women. UTI rates shoot upwards when women hit 45 and are perimenopause
  • kills elderly people all the time is urinary tract infections, which can lead to sepsis, worsened dementia, and death
  • [Mds] taught to treat UTIs with antibiotics
  • people go round in circles, in and out of hospital and care homes with [recurring] UTI

JonKnowsNothing December 18, 2023 3:23 PM

@a different Jon, All

re: Even cars get recalled when found buggy

Dieselgate? (1)

The engineers knew, they coded it to commit fraudulent outputs. The company knew and ordered the changes.

They all went along, taking home big bucks while consumers and the planet suffered at the hands of High Tech buckled in with Big Business and Big Oil.

No, I don’t accept the suggestion that SW is “a baby in the cradle and innocent of intent” (2). We have a lot of intent and little of it is good.

We cannot transfer our failures based on: The Other Guys Did It Too.

===
1)
ht tps://en.wikipedi a. or g/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal

  • The Volkswagen emissions scandal, sometimes known as Dieselgate or Emissionsgate, began in September 2015, when the United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) issued a notice of violation of the Clean Air Act to German automaker Volkswagen Group.
  • The agency had found that Volkswagen had intentionally programmed turbocharged direct injection (TDI) diesel engines to activate their emissions controls only during laboratory emissions testing.

2)

  • AI/ML does not have intent, but the companies sure do. OpenAI, Google, Microsoft, Apple all have intent to commit fraud on a global scale. They have pages of ToS, EULA, CoC to absolve themselves of any and all problems. They are hoping for a Sackler Plea Deal.

JonKnowsNothing December 18, 2023 3:29 PM

@ a different Jon

re: “A backup that hasn’t been tested isn’t a backup.”

Technically the backup worked. It was the restore that did not.

Gotta read the fine print in the contract.

The mega software company knew. The retail value of the code was in the $7digit range per install site. There was no mention of restore or assertion that the data would or could be restored.

The customers got what was in the contract. No one bothered to point out the difference between Backup and Restore.

Jon (a different Jon) December 18, 2023 3:32 PM

They did get recalled – when they got caught!

Make a system, people will game the system. Remember ‘skip shift’ on some Corvettes? They’d violate smog laws in second or third gear, but the test could be passed skipping directly to 4th gear. VW was by no means the first, and they did get caught.

Of course, a lot of VW owners decided not to take their cars in, because they ran so nice as they were, and if their state or area didn’t require smog testing, they didn’t care.

VW also coughed up what, a billion dollars or so in fines and fees?

Intent wasn’t my question. Point being that however powerful your profit motive, rules and regulations (generally) make life better. Software doesn’t have those. Yet. It will. J.

ResearcherZero December 18, 2023 9:48 PM

The real story has been hidden from everyone who visits the car-park, and it is also not included on Tourist FM, Maps, or the GPS system that ensures no one becomes lost or penetrates the facade. That is a car-park, and that is a display. The information that is displayed behind perspex, on the national park scenic drive, is a fabrication, an invented sliver of history. Which is both condescending, insulting and shameful.

This approach of tearing people out of the landscape, and out of the natural world, then commercialising it, is what has broken our own bond with the natural world. It has driven social isolation, changed our very thought processes and our identity, and torn apart our own social fabric. In our attempt to conquer nature, we have forgotten that we are in fact part of it. Rather than understand it and respect it, we merely categorise it, and observe it. Photograph it, pass by it, usually at high speed, then forget it.

ResearcherZero December 18, 2023 10:20 PM

If you clear-fell the forest, and fire-bomb it, at the wrong time of year, which destroys small flowering plants and their tubers, the result being that they cannot produce seed, all that is left is scrub. I do not imagine scrub is very good eating for small animals, or anyone, but it sure burns well!

Which probably explains the increasing decline of biodiversity of the forest. All those small animals turned over the soil of the forest, transported seed and tubers, and reduced the fuel load within the forest. This was aided and assisted by people who lived there.

Where there is not the smell of flowering plants, there is also not the hum of insects.

Now it is often a ghost town, or ghost forest, in many areas. Increasingly quiet and forlorn. A lot like a city in lock-down, devoid of the sounds, smells and traces of life.

JonKnowsNothing December 19, 2023 3:23 AM

@ResearcherZero, All

re: decline of biodiversity

Within every ecosystem, there are no unnecessary parts. All the parts are needed in order for that system to function.

Humans do not like biodiversity because we decide that some parts are not wanted or undesirable (like cockroaches). So we attempt to remove all of these defined undesirable parts, believing that these are restricting other sections which humans have decided are more desirable. That, auto-magically, the freed space it will be filled with our preferred selections.

But it doesn’t work like this because that particular ecosphere was dependent on all of its parts and now we have created a sub-set version that is unbalanced.

In farming and forestry you can see this in practice. We grow large swaths of mono-culture plants and animals.

We grow enormous fields of wheat but it is only 1 kind of wheat. We plant replacement forests but with only a few or sometimes only 1 type of tree: pine forests grown from one kind of pine (slash pine) (1). Organic farms are also mono-culture farms. An organic potato farmer may have a dozen heirloom potatoes but each is grown in its own field separately.

Humans also draw arbitrary lines under what constitutes any particular ecosystem. The emphasis on invasive species is an example of attempting to halt a change in an ecosystem when it is being overwhelmed. Survival of the fittest is not permitted.

Pedigree animals are well known for the genetic anomalies, introduced by human line-breeding to create a particular type of mono-genetic dog, cat, horse, cow, etc.

  • In Australia the authorities have decided on aerial shooting of “wild feral domestic horses” roaming in a park. Each horse will be targeted by helicopter and shot using “multiple rounds” at one time. Death is expected in 5 seconds.

20,000 horses will be killed because they have been declared an invasive species, that they damage the ecosystem and their populations continue to grow.

Aside from the species in this case being horses, the assertions are correct, provided you believe you can hold any ecosystem constant without change.

What is really at stake there is cattle v horses. It happens in the USA too. We pull thousands of wild feral horses off government lands because those lands are leased to ranchers for cattle. The government gets lease money, the ranchers get more cows on the same pasturage.

It is still a mono-culture that is unbalanced. Where the wild feral horses lived their lives in that eco-system, the cows live only a short time before slaughter.

The extinction event that killed most megafauna, should give some indication that ecosystems shift and change all the time. We still have some megafauna left to admire.

  • elephants, giraffes, hippopotamuses, rhinoceroses, moose, blue whales and others

We often miss the point about biodiversity altogether.

  • A recent sad case, vandals cut down an ancient tree in the UK. The park services gathered up the remaining parts of the tree and are cloning or growing new scions. They will be genetically identical to the felled tree. Depending on where and how they are planted they will likely form a mono-culture grove of trees.

The old old TV shows often had a running gag about dichondra lawns… The perfect mono-culture lawn that did not need to be mowed.

===
1)
htt ps://en.wikipedi a.o rg/wiki/Slash_pine

  • Pinus elliottii, commonly known as slash pine, is a conifer tree native to the Southeastern United States.

h ttps://en.wikiped ia. org/wiki/Tree_farming

  • A tree plantation, forest plantation, plantation forest, timber plantation or tree farm is a forest planted for high volume production of wood, usually by planting one type of tree as a monoculture forest.

2)
ht tps://www.theguardi an. com/australia-news/2023/dec/18/national-parks-service-defends-humane-culling-of-hundreds-of-feral-horses-in-kosciuszko

  • National Parks service defends ‘humane’ culling of hundreds of feral horses in Kosciuszko
  • Culling aims to reduce population in fragile ecosystems from about 22,500 to 3,000 by mid-2027

Pierre December 20, 2023 1:27 PM

Can the butterfly effect be then manufactured?

As most of the Hurricanes hitting US West coast are coming from a Russian controlled Wagner group African Land, an entity that can have a feedback loop on every square inches of the planet at light speed might just mess up with our assurance policy.

JT January 15, 2024 11:29 AM

“This future requires us to see ourselves less as individuals, and more as parts of larger systems.”

The US government and corporations already do this. Interesting to note the elimination of the individual is also a Marxist principle. We are now categorized (and often hired and promoted) based on categories over which we have no control like sex and race. Try to apply for a job and leave those categories blank and your application is unlikely to be processed. It is very clear in our society you as an individual count for little (other than taxes extracted) except among friends and family. To everyone else, you are a number (SSN) with certain born attributes.

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