Comments

rDecember 19, 2016 2:32 PM

If he let it get stolen I don't think that qualifies as a legal use of tracking software?

Does it?

I REALLY hope not.

rDecember 19, 2016 3:02 PM

You guys, are sooooooooooo not fun.

I could plant one of my 15 water proof fones inside of the rear fender of your truck with a 12v splice into your trailer or break lights in less than 30 seconds.

While that scenario is considerably more malicious it's effectively the same thing. (In my eyes due to intent)

The only difference is that in this scenario you knew you were accepting my GPS tracker being placed into your pocket or purse.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/montgomery-county-police-make-arrest-in-home-invasion-robbery/2016/03/07/ff25f972-e4bb-11e5-bc08-3e03a5b41910_story.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10724891/Car-thieves-attached-tracker-devices-to-luxury-cars.html
https://www.policeone.com/legal/articles/1751427-NYPD-officer-pleads-not-guilty-in-drug-robbery-ring/

Where do we draw the line?

Clive RobinsonDecember 19, 2016 4:14 PM

Hmm, one thing to note,

He could also use it to spy on everything the thief did, provided there was an active internet connection at the time. He could take photos and record videos, enable the microphone of the device to snoop in on conversations, collect all location data, read all the text messages, access call history, check contacts, and see all the contents of the phone.

What is the betting that a Law Enforcment Organisation version does not need an Internet connection?

rDecember 19, 2016 4:38 PM

Civilian variants of hostile phones don't either, it just leaves a paper trail if the device is discovered due to data subscription requirements. I would assume LEO get bulk rates for rats with a much simpler feature set than a full-featured phone modified phone.

I think my exact problem here is the difference between the words: "allowed" and "enabled".

If he allowed it to be stolen, he was intentionally spying on someone and then hiding behind it as art? Granted, sword makers are artists too but this is like saying the ISIS beheadings are 'art' imb.

If he merely 'enabled' it to be stolen by leaving it out, I think it's a different can of worms maybe?

VictorDecember 19, 2016 5:28 PM

The video is filmed in the Netherlands so discussing the law is moot unless anybody on here is a lawyer familiar with their jurisdiction.

It's an interesting experiment and I'm surprised he got Cerberus to cooperate but they may have wanted the publicity.

The device used was an Android so different results can be expected with other manufacturers especially because he installed it so that is persisted a wipe and, allegedly, he prevented it from being flashed.

65535December 20, 2016 1:33 AM

@ Clive Robinson

“…He could also use it to spy on everything the thief did, provided there was an active internet connection at the time. …What is the betting that a Law Enforcment Organisation version does not need an Internet connection?”

I would say a 70 percent chance they don’t.

I would guess that police do not need an internet connection given that smart phones have 2G, 3G 4G (850/900/1,800/1,900 MHz) tower connections, blue tooth, and various “near field” connections, and so forth.

The police have “Stingrays” and “Dirt boxes” mounted in aircraft, cars, and fixed locations [not to mention monitoring airports and federal buildings and so on].

If a film student put spyware on a Smartphone and gather, geo-location, video, sound, and control over credit cards, call lists, text lists, and email lists the use of these “smart phones” is looking dumb [for those who truly need security and privacy] because the NSA down to local police have much better spy tools.

Without some restriction on spying by police and the TLA’s, these call devices could prove to be less appealing to the average Joe. The Smartphone sales will decrease [or possibly be limited to those rich and powerful who can avoid surveillance – the Snoopers’ Charter exceptions].

The future for these easily spy/tracking consumer devices which happen to make phone calls could decrease with little or no increase in the average Joe’s physical security.

From the recent terrorist’s attacks, it is clear that the really bad guys are not using these Smartphone’s or have found a way to somehow use them without NSA/FBI/LE hindrance. Only protesters, journalists, privacy advocates and petty criminals seem to get screwed – classic security theater.

The lesson for the average Joe is not to use smart phones altogether or just not communicate sensitive information while using them. This could end badly.

DroneDecember 20, 2016 2:07 AM

The guy that did that "film" is a typical Euro-Weenie. The film should have ended with the useless piece of human garbage that stole the phone behind bars. Instead, he's still out there, a potential threat to you and your family.

EvilKiruDecember 20, 2016 2:58 AM

@65535 Smart phone sales won't plummet, because the average Joe doesn't know about this issue, wouldn't understand what it's about if he heard about it, and won't care to lose the convenience of having a smart phone.

WinterDecember 20, 2016 3:37 AM

@Drone
"The film should have ended with the useless piece of human garbage that stole the phone behind bars."

No, this is much better.

The "artist" is not allowed to publish a film of the life of a thief without his consent. It does not matter that he is a thief. The Netherlands is still* a civilized country where everybody is protected by the law, including thieves. But, until the thief files a complaint, this is all just legal theory.

Anyhow, the thief will just be some poor smuck that will not get a long sentence anyway. Steeling a phone is not a capital offense and being made the laughing stock of all will be considered a punishment in itself.

*If our local Trump admirer Wilders gets in power we will go the way of Milosevic and decent into barbarianism.

Clive RobinsonDecember 20, 2016 3:42 AM

@ 65535,

The lesson for the average Joe is not to use smart phones altogether or just not communicate sensitive information while using them.

The problem with "not communicate sensitive information" is knowing in advance what is and is not sensitive, and it does not need to be a smart phone to foul up.

Look at it from a possible consumer concern. Every friday you go and buy a six pack and nachos from your local franchise. You always pay cash and text your partner to say you've got the stuff and are on your way, and then you drive home, you are in effect "regular Joe".

Then one day you have an accident... It's then you find out that somebody can tie your cellphone location records back get your text messages, and store video footage and paint you as a dangerous drunk menece to society and that you should be locked up for forever and a day with the psychos etc etc... Then you get a plea deal offer...

It's the direction we are heading in and joe public has a lot to learn even about dumb mobile phones, transport cards, toll tokens, plate reader cameras etc etc. The authorities are not realy interested in fingering the "right collar" but "any collar", and doing deals to cut corners and meet efficiency / bonus targets, all whilst immune from any consequences.

After all "it's what you voted for" only you didn't, you were voting for change or 3cents off of tax etc etc...

WinterDecember 20, 2016 3:54 AM

@Clive
"After all "it's what you voted for" only you didn't, you were voting for change or 3cents off of tax etc etc..."

This is the punishment for being gullible. But this was not different in July 1789, when the French did get all the "change" they could ever hope for, and their revenge.

Also, if you do not want to pay taxes, you deserve everything that is coming to you.

Clive RobinsonDecember 20, 2016 4:40 AM

@ Winter,

... in July 1789, when the French did get all the "change" they could ever hope for...

And they became even more unsufferable as well ;-)

Nearly all revoloutions do not solve a problem they just change one set of veinal incompetents for another set, and it's the "same old same old" at the end of the day just different faces and flags, great if you sell flags and bunitng, but not otherwise. As one wit once noted "It's called a revolution because like the Catherine wheel it goes around and around driven by gun powder, but it does not go anywhere".

As for taxes, it rather depends on your viewpoint. They should be used for "the common good" or for what they are claimed to be for. The reality is as most would agree, somewhat different.

There is the philosophical point of "Are you being moral if you activly perpetuate that which is immoral?"

steveDecember 20, 2016 4:41 AM

@r

> The only difference is that in this scenario you knew you were accepting my GPS tracker being placed into your pocket or purse.

> Where do we draw the line?

Consent. That's a pretty big difference. It's also the difference between sex and rape, and also the difference between medicine & malpractice. Consent is a pretty well established material difference in circumstance.

WinterDecember 20, 2016 5:21 AM

@Clive
"They should be used for "the common good" or for what they are claimed to be for. The reality is as most would agree, somewhat different."

When you look at the numbers, the "different" part is just a small part. 64% are directly channeled to the population as income transfers, health care, and education. The other 36% are used to pay for the roads, law and its enforcement, water ways, and all the other nitty gritty needed to run a country. Reduce tax income by 25%, and you can write out what you want to scrap.

If we look at the UK, most of the tax money is spend on:
http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/breakdown
Total: £784 billion

Public Pensions £157 billion
National Health Care £143 billion
State Education £85 billion
Social Security £113 billion
subtotal £498 billion

Defence £46 billion
State Protection £29 billion
Transport £28 billion
General Government £15 billion
Other Public Services £118 billion
Public Sector Interest £49 billion
substotal £285 billion

RatioDecember 20, 2016 5:59 AM

@Winter,

"[...] The reality is as most would agree, somewhat different."

When you look at the numbers, [...]

Kudos.

ab praeceptisDecember 20, 2016 6:35 AM

Winter

What did you expect? That they openly state "We f*ck you people in every conceivable way"? *Of course* they'll deliver something that looks like what you have listed.

But:

Those are just budget numbers. How much of that *really* is spent for the common good - and how much ends up in the hands of political cronies, corporations, etc.
If, for instance, participation in an illegal war based on lies really for the common good?

Plus one must also see the unpaid taxes. Joe and Jane pay taxes and are hunted down for the lasst penny. And large corporations? They often pay hardly a ridiculous part of what they should pay.

Finally, connect those two. Large corporation, be it in the military, the health, or another sector, get immense sums through crooked orders and pay next to no taxes. often they do not even deliver what they've been payed for way too much.

WinterDecember 20, 2016 6:53 AM

@ab praeceptis
"Those are just budget numbers. How much of that *really* is spent for the common good - and how much ends up in the hands of political cronies, corporations, etc."

Eh, ever talked to a Briton? Do you really doubt they have hospitals, schools, pensions and welfare? Or roads, municipalities, and armed forces?

These are huge numbers, but the costs are huge too. You cannot pretend to set up the NHS and then not spend the money.

Clive RobinsonDecember 20, 2016 7:05 AM

@ Winter,

I was going to say, "Those are the headline figures, but as we know with newspaper headlines, they hide much of the real story".

But @ab praeceptis has made the point.

But I will also go a little further, and say how does the spending change over the life of a government, and what happens pre and post election.

When you are dealing with those ptacticed not just at lying but self delusion as well, you have to look deeper way deeper to find what makes them tick...

There was a reason why people used to joke that George Osbourn had a plan to change the no parking "double yellow lines" to his prefered "white lines", and even in parliment when the sugar tax was talked about, asked him if the tax would deter his coke consumption?... Whilst others suggested that "coke went straight to his head... But having the first and last words on the subject was what was most important"...

ab praeceptisDecember 20, 2016 7:08 AM

Winter

Come on. Stop playing surface games. Certainly, the uk is not the exception, where every tax pound is wisely spent and well controlled.

Again, the war in Iraq has been illegally - and knowingly and intentionally illegaly - started and fought. What about the billions spent there? Was that for the common good? That's impossible as it was illegal. Was that spent to protect brittons? Hardly. In fact, quite some of them dies and were maimed there.

You really want to tell me that politicians who start an illegal war which was based on intentional lies, will then, however, turn every penny around so as to avoid waste and to put it to good use for the Britons? I don't think so.

WinterDecember 20, 2016 7:59 AM

@ab praeceptis
"Certainly, the uk is not the exception, where every tax pound is wisely spent and well controlled."

There is a HUGE difference between "Every tax pound is wisely spent" and "Taxes are a pure waste".

The UK would not be a nation without taxes. The Britons are very attached to their NHS, their schools, their pensions, and their social security. How should we call someone who uses the roads and hospitals and schools without paying taxes?

To me, if you are like Trump, and do not pay your taxes, you are a parasite.

Clive RobinsonDecember 20, 2016 10:04 AM

@ Winter,

How should we call someone who uses the roads and hospitals and schools without paying taxes?

Well you could start with "Non-Dom" then "Hedge fund owners", anyone who is an exec at Google, Amazon, Starbucks, Costa coffee, Vodafone, various drug companies, the bankers and then there are the various arms manufactures, bribing kicking back and fiddeling export control.

Then there are those who get other tax breaks etc etc etc like "slum-lords" international fraudsters who happen to be "in Government" somewhere, those using various off shore funds with back to back loans to ensure their companies make losses to claim back past and future tax...

They are not paying any where close to what Jane & Joe Public pay as a percentage of income... They find it way way more tax efficient to slip a very very tiny fraction as kickback to Conservative part funds. Oh the list of monied the Tory party suck up to is so long it would take a year or so to type...

Then there are US Diplomats blocking roads with their illegal parking and not paying parking fines etc.

And those are just a fraction of them, don't get me started on those companies like South West Trains, Sothern Railway, Govia and the bus companies they own and make eye watering profits out of the poorest in society...

I Could go on and on and on, but then you would start thinking who's not on the list, and I guess that would be those on zero hours contracts and PAYE...

rDecember 20, 2016 10:22 AM

I am not sure I agree,

He was very obviously motivated by revenge towards the previous thief and again to Apple for not permitting such low level drag and drop controls of his hardware.

This sounds much like the guy "consented" to have his Android "stolen".

At which point it is a gift with some extremely dangerous strings.

How would you feel if I accidentally left my phone in your car, one day... two days... Did you consent for me to randomly drop in on your conversations?

Where's the 2nd/3rd party rule?

I had a salvo fired at me over youtube the other day, so I have not watched the video - but he let the guy keep the phone didn't he? Other than pursuing the issue this time around with authorities. This in America would've been a vigilante move, the proper way to do this would've been to have the police set up the sting and apply a warrant to the resulting information to be gathered.

The guy who made this video is a bigger weenie than the person who stole the phone, anybody could've made this 'art'.

The proper thing to do with the _malware_ he placed on his phone would've been to leave a message for the thieves to return it and then brick the phone - not broadcast that you have zero qualms about being a vigilante spy. It is a very easy thing to do for the most part you modify the boot logo and the alter the filesystem to force a boot loop.

Only you know how to return it to a normal state, fin.

His method?

Subpar.

Gerard van VoorenDecember 20, 2016 10:23 AM

@Victor,

IANAL but as a Dutch guy I am pretty sure that in The Netherlands (looking at previous cases) this is considered investigative journalism when a couple of conditions are met such as that the goal is creating public awareness, not sensationism, respect of privacy as much as possible, and documenting every step taken so that the report can be handed over to LEO's.

rDecember 20, 2016 10:34 AM

Raise your hand if you 'consented' to CarrierIQ.

Now, raise the other one if you don't see any problems with this.

;-)

WinterDecember 20, 2016 11:44 AM

@Clive
"Well you could start with "Non-Dom" then "Hedge fund owners","

Well, as I said, parasites who deserve everything that is coming to them (I hope). That is something voters in the UK might have a way of addressing, eventually.

But then we are back to:
"After all "it's what you voted for" only you didn't, you were voting for change or 3cents off of tax etc etc..."

The gullible are punished.

Clive RobinsonDecember 20, 2016 12:27 PM

@ Winter,

The gullible are punished.

Oh that it were only the gullible.

Politicians lying for votes has become a science, and most people want to live a life, not chase lying scumbags down and hold there feet to the fire.

Traditionaly that was what journalists were supposed to do, but now they are treated as badly as the proprietors can get away with whilst they schmooze with the politicos and celebs (see "two beards" of the Evening Standard). In the UK we have the Rupert "the bare faced lier" Murdoch and his "Red Top" "Scum" etc. We also have "The Guardian" supposadly a bastion of "social conscience" that Bruce used to write pieces for when they were actually paying for the well thought out writing.

Well you ask the jobing journos and photographas there now who are on zero hours contracts and laid off for a month or so about once a year to stop them getting employment rights. Then there are all the hopefull interns working 90 hours a week for bus fare and a cheap sandwich being used doubly as unpayed labour to generate click bait and as a threat to those who still get payed the wages they had a decade ago. That's "Free Market MSM" for you, oh and there's all that click bait and celebrity flesh flashing for online offerings, with adds trackers and even God knows not what else being shoveled your way...

We are told to worry about "Phoney Facebook News", but who's telling us to worry about "Phoney MSM News".

Oh you mentioned you potential "little Trump" (or assqueak). Well you might have heard of the UK's Nigle Farage... Who thinks he's responsable for the Trump Victory as well as Brexit. Well he's so full of himself he's not being as cautious as he should be with that motor mouth of his...,

https://www.aseanbreakingnews.com/2016/12/an-anti-fascism-group-is-crowdfunding-a-bid-to-sue-nigel-farage-for-defamation/

Then there's this,

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/apr/20/marine-le-pen-nigel-farage-slander-antisemitism-claims

And of course he's stil upset over,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38064664

As Private Eye would say "He's obviously 'tired and emotional'" though he's not yet stooped to the lows of "Discussing the Uganda position" but that will as they say "no doubt come eventually".

Sancho_PDecember 20, 2016 5:47 PM

@Winter

”To me, if you are like Trump, and do not pay your taxes, you are a parasite.”

Nah, turn it around to make it a shoe.

The powers don’t pay taxes because their subordinates already do.
This goes back to Adam and Eve or whatever you believe in, and will go on until doomsday, whether you like it or not.

If Trump would pay taxes he’d be an idiot, and a very rare one beyond the wealthy.

So your "... are like Trump, and ..." is the culprit.

65535December 20, 2016 7:06 PM

@ EvilKiru

“…the average Joe doesn't know about this issue, wouldn't understand what it's about if he heard about it, and won't care to lose the convenience of having a smart phone.”

That is the case so far. But, the word is slowly getting out.


@ Clive Robinson

"...problem with "not communicate sensitive information" is knowing in advance what is and is not sensitive..." -Clive

Yes, that is the problem of the ages. OPSEC is difficult - even for military trained people when talking to their families. It's easy to let something slip. There are a number of Youtube vids with troops in the field chatting with their mothers on the phone only to hear bang, bang, bang zing... " Crap, Mom, I got to go now. I am busy."

"...Every friday you go and buy a six pack and nachos from your local franchise. You always pay cash and text your partner to say you've got the stuff and are on your way, and then you drive home, you are in effect "regular Joe… one day you have an accident... It's then you find out that somebody can tie your cellphone location records back get your text messages, and store video footage and paint you as a dangerous drunk menece to society and that you should be locked up for forever and a day with the psychos etc etc...” -Clive

That is a real concern. Even if an auto accident is a “fender bender” there are a lot of people and personal injury lawyers who are willing escalate it into “whip lash” or “hair line base of the skull fracture” or “shooting paints” in the legs and so on. If there is money to be made in such a case it will be made. I this this will end badly.

“…the direction we are heading in and joe public has a lot to learn even about dumb mobile phones, transport cards, toll tokens, plate reader cameras etc etc.” –Clive

How true.

But, the thread focused on “smart phones” with processors and fairly large amounts of memory, GPS, camera and mics. That is why I should have named the smart phone a “non-air gap-able digital device” …unless you have a faraday cage or elector-magnetic blocking plastic bag.

@ Matteo

‘…something similar has been shown on italian television, you can watch it here:
http://www.video.mediaset.it/video/iene/puntata/viviani-e-se-ti-spiassero-dal-tuo-cellulare_562166.html or google: "le iene se ti spiassero dal tuo cellulare"’

Good catch.

This is more proof a smart phone is a tracking device that happens to also make telephone calls.

@ r

“Raise your hand if you 'consented' to CarrierIQ. Now, raise the other one if you don't see any problems with this.;-)”

As in hands-up you are under arrest? Haha

Clive RobinsonDecember 20, 2016 10:19 PM

@ 65535,

But, the thread focused on “smart phones” with processors and fairly large amounts of memory, GPS, camera and mics.

Which got subverted to a very serious level by someone who is not a computer security expert, LEO or even PI / Gumshoe. Just an "ordinary joe or jo". So now the jealous partners or even employers can track your every cough or sneeze etc...

Which brings us to the idea of technical countermeasures like,

... you have a faraday cage or elector-magnetic blocking plastic bag.

But it's not that simple any more. Think about the "before and after" logs at your service provider that in the US the Gov now gets access to for free 24x365.25. The metadata can show not just the location and time but things like battery state and if you turned the phone off or not. Thus the use of a Faraday Bag or box etc can be deduced automatically on all phone users. Thus you become a "Person of Interest" simply by being cautious and taking technical security measures.

Which could then be used to suggest criminal intent, premeditation or even conspiracy, and makes you look as guilty as hell.

You would actually look less guilty if you went "old school" and put the phone on charge in the bedroom in a draw in you bedside table, turned on the bedside radio and shut the bedroom door...

Thus it's not "what you do" but "how you do it" as it realy matters "how it looks" to a jury when presented in the worst possible way.

But, it's also the way your phone is also an "atomic clock" record synchronization device. Unbeknown to many is just how acurate time wise service provider logs can be made to look. Those time stamps are traceable to an atomic clock and are often given in mind numbingly short periods of time (think the time it takes light to travel less than 100ft). Which can give a very false impression to those who do not know just how long it can take for information to get into the logging process (seconds or minutes). The problem is that those time stamps not only make searching other logs/records etc much much easier, automaticaly by authorities, but can also be presented in a way to make a person look like they are lying, much like the "Do you still beat your wife?" question.

It would be nice to think that the logs could clear you as well, but it does not work that way these days. There is the pretense that LEOs would look to "rule people out", actually they don't as such. What they do is use information to find a short list of likely suspects then focus on proving it's one or more of them. As that list gets shorter they actually start ignoring contradictory evidence because they are already in to the state of mind you are guilty, but lying, thus they are looking to disprove what you say, not to prove you are innocent. This can be seen from the large numbers of wrongful convictions where it has been found that evidence was "lost" thus never came to the attention of the defense team. It's the old game of "Police are as honest as the day is long, but criminals are deceitful lying parasites on society" where as in fact the Police are way more practiced at lying...

The thing is we are getting into "Push a button" automated law enforcement more and more and the mindless "The computer says" attitude that goes with it. People rarely hear of GIGO these days or the fact that various studies have found that large data bases of PII data such as credit checking databases upto 80% of records have been found to have one or more errors in them... Likewise the FBI DNA database was found at one point to be less than accurate (apparently unsuprisingly there have been no further independent studies).

Good or bad, data gets kept forever these days, as somebody thinks there is money to be made some how at some point. The problem is that in humans memory ages in various ways[1], thus our ability to defend our selves ages and diminishes quite rapidly unless we have reason to remember, then sometimes we can not forget and our memories get twisted.

Sometimes it feels as though the only defence is 100% "life bloging" but that to has it's problems...

[1] I've heard it likened to box files in a room, where the most accessed are closest to the door, the least hidden in some dark dusty corner at the back buried under others and probably with mice nesting in it...

65535December 21, 2016 12:56 AM

@ Clive Robinson

“smart phones” with processors and fairly large amounts of memory, GPS, camera and mics.” -65535

“Which got subverted to a very serious level by someone who is not a computer security expert, LEO or even PI / Gumshoe. Just an "ordinary joe or jo". So now the jealous partners or even employers can track your every cough or sneeze etc...”-Clive

In the States this is already being done by PI/Gumshoes. There are a number of cases where husband and spouse are hiring PI/Gumshoes to plant keyloggers on smartphones/tablets/laptops and GPS trackers under cars to be used in divorce court.

“You would actually look less guilty if you went "old school" and put the phone on charge in the bedroom in a draw in you bedside table, turned on the bedside radio and shut the bedroom door...”-Clive

True.

But, with spoiled kids visiting the house and taking unbecoming pictures of people eating for fun and games I have instituded the Cell Phone free house rule for kids. I have been using the FaradayCage/Iron cooking pot with lid to hold the kid’s smartphones/camera’s and to keep them from playing nasty jokes.

The Iron pot is cheap and works to silence the cell phones brought in our house and, to keep the mischief to a minimum. Let, the neighbors’ kids go home and harass their family's with unbecoming cell phone photos which will probably end up on FaceCrook.

“Unbeknown to many is just how acurate time wise service provider logs can be made to look. Those time stamps are traceable to an atomic clock and are often given in mind numbingly short periods of time (think the time it takes light to travel less than 100ft). Which can give a very false impression to those who do not know just how long it can take for information to get into the logging process (seconds or minutes). The problem is that those time stamps not only make searching other logs/records etc much much easier, automatically by authorities, but can also be presented in a way to make a person look like they are lying, much like the "Do you still beat your wife?" question.”- Clive

Good point.

I would guess the TLAs can gather large quantities of data, compress and encrypt it, store it memory and phone it home in a blink of an eye. This large scale data mining by the TLAs and local police is a huge fishing expedition which harms innocent individuals.

I looked into those “atomic clocks” and found they are far and few between. But, radio clocks which get their time from atomic clocks via radio can be plentiful and they are online [I believe you can get one for your wall for 60 USD].

”…the pretense that LEOs would look to "rule people out", actually they don't as such. What they do is use information to find a short list of likely suspects then focus on proving it's one or more of them. As that list gets shorter they actually start ignoring contradictory evidence because they are already in to the state of mind you are guilty, but lying, thus they are looking to disprove what you say, not to prove you are innocent.” -Clive

I basically agree.

I like Bruce’s idea of dismantling the NSA and their toys – or at least dividing the NSA up so that powerful State Sponsored weapons are not used on the very civilian the NSA is supposed to be protecting.

The idea/reality of equipping each police officer and his police cruiser with a Stingray, APT software, night vision items, automatic license plate readers, shotguns, semi automatic pistols with 13 to 21 round magazines and the ability to turn off body cameras is not good policy - at least in the States [Remember the Orlando Fl, night club shoot where three cops entered and began firing – yet missed the real shooter – probably cost a number of civilian lives – we will never know].

People rarely hear of GIGO these days or the fact that various studies have found that large data bases of PII data such as credit checking databases upto 80% of records have been found to have one or more errors in them... Likewise the FBI DNA database was found at one point to be less than accurate (apparently unsuprisingly there have been no further independent studies)… Good or bad, data gets kept forever these days, as somebody thinks there is money to be made some how at some point..”-Clive

That hits the nail on the head. Data bases can easily produce Garbage In Garbage Out when mistakes or false information is entered.

We really need a way to “Audit” these data based to ensure no civilians are labeled as criminals. But, first we need to find them and then examine them.

Last, I believe that “Nation Security” phrase is over used. It how is a get-out-of-jail fee card when breaking the Fourth Amendment and similar laws. The same goes for “Classified” material which is inflated and really not relating to meaningful “National Security.”

I wonder when a high profile lawyer will get burned along with his client give the spy technology packed to each police car, each Federal Building, each Airport etc – and what will he/she do stop it.

There is a lot of work to be done both on the Technical side and on the legal side of privacy issues. Unfortunately, it is a steep up hill battle.

WinterDecember 21, 2016 1:07 AM

@Clive
"Politicians lying for votes has become a science, and most people want to live a life, not chase lying scumbags down and hold there feet to the fire. "

I was naive in my youth. But when I grew up I realized that people get the government they deserve.

What you all write is different in different countries. It just depends on what the people "want" to believe. Yes, politicians lie. But it takes an electorate willing to believe them. Anyone who believed what was written in the Pravda of old was willing to believe what he was told more than his own eyes. The same holds for Murdoch's empire.

The underlying psychology is that you accept what you hear often. But in modern times you must be willing to seek out the message yourself.

Only if a mentally sane person desperately wants to, will he believe Clinton hides a pedo network in the basement of a pizza chain. Everybody else will just listen to the many voices telling you this is nonsense. The same holds for "The Wall" or Clinton's terminal disease status or her demonic possession.

With every year and every election, I become more convinced that people get the government they deserve. This is just sad for the many people who get the government their neighbors deserve.
(the proverb works better in languages that separate "people" as individuals from "people" as a community)

vas pupDecember 21, 2016 3:02 PM

@Clive, Winter, all other bloggers.
Criminals (including political dissidents)in former USSR had a motto: "Trust LEO is to (bleep)yourself" because they understood that lie is the key tool of manipulation of behavior of others when violence/intimidation as a tool is not available. 5th Amendment and then Miranda were created for average Joe/Jane to at least somehow counterbalance one way right of LEO to lie to you.
Blame them for this is like blaming carpenter for using hummer.
Shut up and ask for lawyer. Remember: you are not in North Korea yet(kidding!).

Regarding politicians: same thing. It was old bitter joke: if later (e.g. in a year) you don't regret of your choice during election, you probably not voted at all. There is perfect 'South Park' (I guess 2004)episode about election there: choice was between turd sandwich and kind of enema. No further comment for initiated.

DroneDecember 21, 2016 11:18 PM

@Winter,

If the film-maker was a responsible member of society that cared about the well-being of others, not just himself, he would have filed a police report on the thief along with his evidence. If more responsible people did the same thing, the build-up of evidence would force the authorities to take action against the harmful individual. If that's not how it works in your country then you have a responsibility make that fact known publicly, and do all you can to change it.

WinterDecember 22, 2016 12:43 AM

@Drone
"If the film-maker was a responsible member of society that cared about the well-being of others, not just himself, he would have filed a police report on the thief along with his evidence."

No, "a responsible member of society that cared about the well-being of others" would put informing the population about the dangers of smartphone technology before his own feelings of revenge. It is called "journalism", and sometimes "art".

rDecember 24, 2016 12:31 PM

In a not so wild turn of events,

Any good artist and any good piece generates controversery, I guess that makes it official then.

JoeJanuary 3, 2017 4:05 AM

I see also an interesting social result of this experiment: the villain easily manages to convince the "victim", that he is a poor and pious person in need, to the point that the victim decides to make him a donation, and even to approach him, only to discover its dangerous nature.
From what I see in this video, the younger generations looks very sensible, naive and easily manipulable (not for nothing someone coined the term snowflake-generation). They are therefore proner to fall victim of "Nigerian"-like scams and Stockholm syndrome.
Some prevention and education in this matter would be needed.

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