Stink Bombs for Riot Control

They're coming to the US:

It's called Skunk, a type of "malodorant," or in plainer language, a foul-smelling liquid. Technically nontoxic but incredibly disgusting, it has been described as a cross between "dead animal and human excrement." Untreated, the smell lingers for weeks.

The Israeli Defense Forces developed Skunk in 2008 as a crowd-control weapon for use against Palestinians. Now Mistral, a company out of Bethesda, Md., says they are providing it to police departments in the United States.

[...]

The Israelis first used it in 2008 to disperse Palestinians protesting in the West Bank. A BBC video shows its first use in action, sprayed by a hose, a system that has come to be known as the "crap cannon."

Mistral reps say Skunk, once deployed, can be "neutralized" with a special soap ­ and only with that soap. In another BBC video, an IDF spokesman describes how any attempt to wash it via regular means only exacerbates its effects. Six weeks after IDF forces used it against Palestinians at a security barrier, it still lingered in the air.

Posted on May 26, 2015 at 6:18 AM • 98 Comments

Comments

WmMay 26, 2015 6:35 AM

And law enforcement is going to concern itself with handing out anti-stink soap afterwards? I don't think so.

mafMay 26, 2015 7:19 AM

So, if you've been hit, I take it you can just visit the local police station and ask them for the soap. They will probably hand them out very, very quickly.

Seriously though, I have a bit of a physical problem with smells like the described, so I hope they have medical staff nearby when they apply it.

rgaffMay 26, 2015 7:24 AM

@maf

I think you're on to something. So if I get hit, I need to camp out at the Police Station until I can get some of their special soap? And remind them day after day that it lasts over 6 weeks when they're going around holding their noses?

ZenzeroMay 26, 2015 7:26 AM

The US military (and I'm sure many others) have long been looking at malodorant's as weapon's to be used in war. Many within the military circle believe that it sidesteps little problems such as the chemical weapons convention (i.e. the banning of chemical weapons in war). Whether it is or isn’t, doesn’t take away from the fact that using them for policing is a bad idea from a number of perspectives.

* It's non targeted, such that it can and will easily and indiscriminately affect innocent bystanders
* It could easily cause accidents in a civilian environment (cars, heavy machinery use, emergency response teams affected etc)
* It can easily be deployed as a collective punishment (if say there is an area where there is a little rioting, over spraying the area and causing distress to everyone living there for weeks)
* If it's as persistent as reported it could have knock on effects on employment, ability to do certain jobs, attend school etc.
* How much time are the police prepared to waste providing clean-up facilities, or will that fall into someone else’s lap
* What are it’s affect’s on babies or pregnant women or the elderly
* How much $’s will be lost when an area of business is effectively forcible closed due to odour. Who will incur the cost of cleaning it up, will insurance cover it etc

These are clearly not intended for civilian usage.

EricMay 26, 2015 7:27 AM


And the problem is that law enforcement will be tempted to use this sort of thing in a fairly indiscriminate fashion - much like they have come to use the taser.

I guess the flip side of this however is that if they use this against people whom they end up arresting, then the odor will also permeate police vehicles and police stations, which will provide a disincentive for the police to use it in the first place.

And even then - if the police only used it for crowd control, there needs to be some sensitivity to the surrounding area. For example, if they used it against people protesting at the World Bank, one might imagine that there would be some rather influential people who would demand that the police never use that thing again anywhere near any one of their buildings.

And eventually people will figure out some sort of way to neutralize the odor using common household chemicals.

newkidtownMay 26, 2015 8:00 AM

Notice how the BBC article is of 2008. Any news of how much it has been used since then?

ZenzeroMay 26, 2015 8:18 AM

@ newkidtown

"Notice how the BBC article is of 2008. Any news of how much it has been used since then?"

See 5 below for the IDF's response. Apparently deployed regularly against some village's with regular weekly protests against occupation. Last large scale usage was in Hebron against a crowd of ~1000 (including a funeral procession waiting for the crowd to disperse)

http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/idf_response_to_b_tselem_on_crowd_control_weapons

Wiki on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skunk_(weapon)


JADMay 26, 2015 8:32 AM

Considering how content some people are to characterize protestors as criminals, I'm thinking about what happens in the days and weeks following the use of Skunk against nonviolent protestors.

Will people who have been "skunked" be profiled by cops looking for further excuses to crack down on protestors?

Will protestors and passers-by be dismissed from their jobs because their odor is getting in the way of work?

AnuraMay 26, 2015 8:57 AM

@JAD

If you can find cases where people do lose their jobs, I bet you could take it to court and make an eight amendment case against it.

AlexMay 26, 2015 9:15 AM

@JAD Protests against capitalism is norm.
Because capitalism stinks.

JaysonMay 26, 2015 10:03 AM

I highly doubt this will catch on since instead mace can be used with no repercussions and is a more effective deterrent that can't be rendered useless by noseplugs.

GorbagMay 26, 2015 10:57 AM

So if this is a continuation of previous lines, this is a mix of putrescine and cadaverine, probably with an indole derivative for the eau de poop, and surfactants for a nice even spread. Throw some stabilizers in there for shelf life, maybe a dye marker as well.

Amines like these can be cleaned off with a warm, mildly acidic solution (acetic acid, citric acid, etc) and repeated scrubbings. Regular detergents won't remove that wonderful smell. I would think there might be some hydrophobic additives as well to confound "normal" washing attempts.

ArclightMay 26, 2015 11:04 AM

This is almost certainly a mercapatan-based product. Fortunately, mercapatans can be neutralized with Hydrogen Peroxide:

http://www.h2o2.com/industrial/applications.aspx?pid=110&name=Mercaptan-Control

Example:
2(C2H5SH) + H2O2 = 2(C2H5)2S + 2(H20)

Here's a recipe Airsoft players use to clean up gear when Propane is used as a propellant:
http://www.airsoftforum.com/board/topic/282576-neutralizing-ethyl-mercaptan/

So I don't think this "special soap" is all that special.

Arclight

Lev BronsteinMay 26, 2015 11:07 AM

I wonder what are the odds of this causing an anaphylaxis reaction in someone and killing them? The wiki page says its made of amino acids, which would make it a protein, and those are the types of molecules that trigger immune response, and thus anaphylaxis.

Andrew WallaceMay 26, 2015 11:09 AM

Beepeepeep

It didn't melt them on 9/11 the intense fire weakened them then the rest of the building collapsed with the weight above.

Andrew

Clive RobinsonMay 26, 2015 11:15 AM

@ Moderator, Buce,

I must formaly complain of the posting by Andrew Wallace above (May 26, 2015 8:23 AM).

Not only is it not contributing to the blog page it is discriminatory to a substantial minority group.

This brings this blog significantky into disrepute. If the poster were to make such comments either in or from a place of employment, they would fall afoul of the "bringing into disrepute" clause found in employment contracts. Further the poster claims to be from the UK in which there are quiet strong harasment and discrimination laws and people have been fined and jailed for discriminatory or harassing behaviour "on line".

MikeAMay 26, 2015 11:15 AM

I recall reading some time back that the OSS produced a spray for use by partisans in Japanese occupied territory. IIRC, it produced a hard-to-remove faecal smell.
OTOH, this was during wartime against an occupying force. OTOOH, some protesters do call themselves "Occupy..."

SamMay 26, 2015 11:44 AM

@Andrew Wallace

Your freedom of expression means the government can't arrest you for your opinions. It doesn't mean that privately owned websites have to continue to host your comments for you.

http://xkcd.com/1357/

rgaffMay 26, 2015 11:54 AM

"Civil disobedience is a crime. You should behave yourself at all times."

"Protesters waste thousands of pounds of taxpayers money on policing costs and disrupt the lives of everyday citizens."

So... being disruptive is a crime... are you saying you belong in jail now for being disruptive?

OliverMay 26, 2015 11:57 AM

Does this gewt around that pesky little problem of the CWC?
Just a thought.

Andrew WallaceMay 26, 2015 11:59 AM

rgaff

I've expressed an opinion that I don't like protesters and I'm glad the government are using stink bombs to deter them.

Andrew

albertMay 26, 2015 12:00 PM

So is this when the shit finally hit the fan?
.
"technically nontoxic", my ass. Where's the proof? I'll bet dollars to donuts 'testing' was a joke, and problems will be found years later, after it's too late.
.
A "special soap"? Seriously? How long would it take to analyze and duplicate it?
.
@uh, Mike
It's supposed to be _non-lethal_ (like tasers, microwave cannons, sound blasters, rubber bullets, tear gas, water cannons, and night-sticks). I know you're joking, but don't give 'em ideas. These folks are psychotic; don't encourage 'em. Chemically-assisted behavior controls have been under development for decades. The Holy Grail of population control has yet to be found; a safe, cheap chemical that makes folks docile and obedient, without that expensive Propaganda Machine.
.
...

Mark in CAMay 26, 2015 12:06 PM

Could this be the "special soap" need to neutralize the odor? OK, it's for a dog, but seems like it should work:

1 quart 3% Hydrogen Peroxide
1/4 cup Baking Soda
1 teaspoon liquid soap (Dawn Dishwashing Detergent is often recommended, but any dish soap will work)
Rubber or latex gloves

Mix in an open container (bucket or bowl); it will be fizzy, a clue that you shouldn't try to mix it or store it in a bottle or other closed container.

Thoroughly wet your dog with warm water and then the solution while it is still bubbline. Knead it well into his coat, to chemically alter every bit of the thiols on his hair. Be careful to keep the formula out if the dog's eyes, nose and mouth; you can use a sponge to carefully wipe it onto his face. Let the solution stand for 10 minutes before rinsing. Follow the bath with a thorough rinse. Be sure to protect the eyes when rinsing the head. Chances are you will not get all of the smell off of the face and will have to live with that as it wears off. You can try Tricotine Liquid Douche Concentrate or any over-the-counter douche.

[http://goo.gl/UPNH]

albertMay 26, 2015 12:30 PM

@Clive,
@Sam,
@rgaff,
.
I'm not sure of the implications of being "...jailed with a bunch of homosexuals...", but, given the choice between that and a bunch of violent gangbangers, I'll take the gays any day:)
.
...

Andrew WallaceMay 26, 2015 12:31 PM

Bruce

The comment section of your blog seems to have attracted anti government folks and an anti government agenda.

You are pro police and pro government so it is kind of weird what is going on.

Andrew

aboniksMay 26, 2015 12:37 PM

Is there no patent on file for this stuff? HAZmat import records? Which agency has cleared it for use...FOIA? It shouldn't be that hard to get more information on what's in this stuff, and in the release agent.

AlexMay 26, 2015 12:38 PM

"Protesters waste thousands of pounds of taxpayers money" -- false, protesters cost nothing. It is police that costs.

And GCHQ costs much more in any sense as Snowden revealed.

AlexMay 26, 2015 12:49 PM

It is not bad to be anti-government when government oppressing people, spy on them massively, and kill them in so called "war on terror".

AlexMay 26, 2015 12:51 PM

@George, there is no communism yet.
There is capitalism on whole Earth. And it stinks.

milkshakenMay 26, 2015 1:01 PM

Diluted peroxide + soda or Oxiclean (sodium percarbonate) sotution in water will certainly work against thiols, short fatty acids (rancid unwashed hobo animal smell) will get neutralized too.

If police is using stinkbombs, they can be targeted with it too. These are very common industrial chemicals we are talking about, costing just few bucks a pound on large scale. A spilled bottle of the stuff can be smelled ten miles downwind. You would probably need to have established account with a chemical supply company to procure them, but it is easy, as there are smaller re-suppliers who charge little extra and do not ask to many questions.

And yes, these things befoul the place for long time. In Prague under communist regime, some vandals poured butyric acid into subway air handlers in the center of Prague, I remember the subway line A smelling like monkey cage for months.

If you tried to use or just discussed a home-made stinkbomb against a company or a government, you would probably get charged with "a conspiracy to manufacture weapons of mass destruction" and labeled as a terrorist, even if you used just the same "perfectly safe that you can drink it" mix from Israelis.

Andrew WallaceMay 26, 2015 1:07 PM

"It is not bad to be anti-government when government oppressing people, spy on them massively, and kill them in so called "war on terror"."

Alex

You must be living in a different world than I am. The government have only targeted terrorists during the war on terrorism and have only spied on terrorists.

The humble citizen has carried on with their life in complete harmony, peace and protection while our brave men and women of our armed forces risk their life to defend our nation.

Our highly intelligent and skilled men and women of our signals intelligence agency have worked tirelessly to eavesdrop on terrorists who wish to disrupt our way of life.

You as a humble citizen are deemed irrelevant to the government who have no interest in you. The government are only interested in terrorists.

Andrew

ArgosMay 26, 2015 1:18 PM

Antidote:

"Mix and use immediately in an open container [cause it can explode}:

One quart 3% hydrogen peroxide
A quarter cup of baking soda
One teaspoon of liquid soap

Wash yourself [or your pet] with this mixture and apply a tap water rinse and odor will instantly vanish. Good luck!" :)

Source: http://rahpa.com/skunk_antidote.php

Andrew WallaceMay 26, 2015 1:25 PM

No it wasn't sarcasm. We owe our personnel a debt of gratitude for the long hours they serve to protect our nation and don't deserve to be slated or criticised.

Andrew

AlexMay 26, 2015 1:44 PM

@Andrew Wallace, Your "personnel" got a payment, sometimes very high salaries. Palestine peoples live in poverty, as well as much arabs in Middle East, not mention Africa continent.
Mass poverty, the necessary attribute of capitalism is the fundamental source of your sense of insecurity.
No one of your "brave men and women" can do anything with this basic source of fear and hatred.

SJMay 26, 2015 1:45 PM

@Gorbag

So if this is a continuation of previous lines, this is a mix of putrescine and cadaverine, probably with an indole derivative for the eau de poop, and surfactants for a nice even spread. Throw some stabilizers in there for shelf life, maybe a dye marker as well.

Amines like these can be cleaned off with a warm, mildly acidic solution (acetic acid, citric acid, etc) and repeated scrubbings.

Would tomato juice sauce work?

Last time I tried to clean skunk-odor off of a dog, I used tomato juice.

On a person, tomato juice should also work. But tomato juice can stain clothes, which might make citric acid the preferred cleanser for clothes.

The easiest source of citric acid that I can think of is lemon juice.

As a second thought: what kind of dies could be added, and what kind of cleansers might be necessary for those dies?

I'm not very surprised that a press release would fail to mention these commonly-available cleansers which would work where common soaps fail.

However, I'm a little surprised that journalists wouldn't apply 5 or 10 minutes thought, and comment that "Representatives of the Company did not comment on the possibility that lemon juice/tomato juice would suffice to remove the odor."

Andrew WallaceMay 26, 2015 2:04 PM

Alex

I am a humble citizen who is satisfied with the police and government and everything they do on our behalf.

I briefly read the news and noticed our government were fighting terrorists after 9/11 and thought what brave people and how proud I am.

After 9/11 I noticed the government had decided to sift through everyones data to detect hard to find lone wolf terrorists.

I completely agree with blanket surveillance because of the likelihood of lone wolf terrorism which is a growing trend in the current climate.

Andrew

Lev BronsteinMay 26, 2015 2:12 PM

@SJ

I suspect you're correct on this one. One of the main ingredients they released was baking soda; So I expect the clean answer is something acidic, likely with an hydroxide boost.

If it is vampirine, putrescine or cadaverine, then they're being dishonest calling them nontoxic. Those are in fact toxic substances, Its just the toxic doses are a orders of magnitude higher than are bearable.

Marcos El MaloMay 26, 2015 2:18 PM

@Bruce, Moderator, cc:@Clive

I second Clive's request. Once again, a thread is being derailed by troll behavior.

@everyone else

Don't feed the troll. Don't debate with it. Don't give it an attack surface. The time for benefit of the doubt is long past.

SJMay 26, 2015 2:22 PM

@Albert,

RE: Non-lethal weapons

I have this vague memory that cops and lawyers use the words "less-lethal" to describe Tasers.

The words "non-lethal" are tossed around a lot, but I suspect that even the supplier company describes the device as "less-lethal".

Not that there are no lethalities due to Taser use. But that lethal results are low-enough-probability that Policemen will use Tasers on each other during training.

I suspect this means that Tasers have almost-zero lethality on adults healthy enough to make it into Police training.

Which is different than saying that Tasers have almost-zero lethality on the Usual Suspects... the ones who are part of "a Police encounter", manage to escalate the encounter into "use force", but somehow don't escalate into "use deadly force".

JaysonMay 26, 2015 2:26 PM

@Marcos El Malo

Looks like the troll is feeding the troll. Must be a slow day.

Marcos El MaloMay 26, 2015 2:32 PM

This is probably a good alternative to shooting into large crowds of protestors. At least, that is the Authority p.o.v. (I would guess).

What I find troublesome is that there seems to be a movement by Authorities to prepare for mass protests and riots, as well as dissent in general. Almost as if preparations were being made for a "state of emergency" or a police regime.

Assume for a moment that this is in fact the case, that the Authorities are preparing for mass civil unrest. Further assume (setting aside your cynicism) that those in Authority are not evil men and women. What crisis or catastrophe are they foreseeing that would cause such unrest?

(This is just an exercise. I'm fully aware of the possibility that those in Authority might not be of goodwill and merely power hungry.)

Clive RobinsonMay 26, 2015 2:33 PM

@ SJ,

The easiest source of citric acid that I can think of is lemon juice.

How pure do you want it?

Try your local home cook/preserving/brewing shop they have by the "bucket". They likely have several other injestable acids and acid alcohols (brewers condiment / pickeling vinaigers etc).

Andrew WallaceMay 26, 2015 2:33 PM

This blog comment section is weird. If you're not following the anti government agenda of others you get accused of being a troll.

Andrew

dmMay 26, 2015 2:35 PM

@albert:
"The Holy Grail of population control has yet to be found; a safe, cheap chemical that makes folks docile and obedient, without that expensive Propaganda Machine."

Many years ago I lived with Iranian students. The Shah was still in power at the time. I understood from them that the Shah *did* have this perfect chemical - he and his wife imported heroin to ply the masses with. I also understood that construction workers, paid barely enough to buy a loaf of bread, and plied with this H, wore MIT Class Rings - they were the ultimate status symbol.

Andrew WallaceMay 26, 2015 2:44 PM

I am pro police and pro government who stumbled upon this blog belonging to a pro police and pro government technologist and noticed something was weird: everyone in the comment section was anti government. I decided to go into the comment section and investigate the problem and challenge opinions that are different from mine.

Andrew

ModeratorMay 26, 2015 3:44 PM

Thank you for your complaint; I was hoping to hear from discussion participants before taking action on this one. Mr. Wallace's post was indeed offensive and noncontributory, and I have withdrawn it. Prison rape jokes, and comments equating gays with rapists, have no place on this blog, any more than racist remarks.

John CampbellMay 26, 2015 5:12 PM

The "special" soap allows registering all people "tagged".

If the soap provided is only enough for one application on one person, this makes it easy to record repeat offenders (oh, a double entendre!) for further observation/surveillance.

Frankly, over-use, unless there's something special about it, will, eventually, be accomodated and people used to being "skunked" won't be as affected as fresh victims.

It will certainly make things worse, socially, by further impacting the ability of some folks to be integrated.

GorbGMay 26, 2015 5:47 PM

@SJ

Tomato juice is mildly acidic, but you're better off just using white vinegar found at your local grocers. My guess for the dyes would be something similar to a fluorescein dye, and really only photodegredation will work on those.

@John Campbell you're more than correct, you're prescient. They're probably going to charge you for the soap too.

tyrMay 26, 2015 7:17 PM


"There exists a limit to the force even the most powerful
may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this
limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power
is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance,
never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs
it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and
escape the consequences. "

That's the bind modern law enforcement has put itself in
through draconian measures against the constitutional
freedom to assembly to redress wrongs done. You don't
have to agree with the demonstrators to see the more
egregious errors of law enforcement. They have their tails
curled around their balls and there's nothing safe about
an armed and paranoid coward who can strike you with a
degree of impunity. You cannot hide behind the skirts of
the law by breaking it nor can you justify that behavior
with well meaning coverups.

Good governance begins with good actions which lead to good
outcomes. Good fortune passes everywhere. No amount of pious
hope or mindless cheerleading will cover up the results of
the truly shitty governance we enjoy today on a planetary
scale.

People support good governments, they also destroy bad ones
with amazing ferocity. Where's the invincible Russian
Communist Party, rulers of a huge landmass with a giant
mechanism of repression solidly in place ?

Contrary to the moral relativist view every human understands
right and wrong on a basic level. Cultures work to subvert
this basic fact and are sometimes successful but once it is
apparent to the dimmest that things are wrong they get made
right in a hurry.

albertMay 26, 2015 7:20 PM

@SJ,
There's a wealth of info about Tasers online. They have been suspected in many deaths. Proof is hard to come by. AFAIK, it is difficult to prove heart arrhythmia as a cause of death. It's been mentioned that mitigating factors like stress, increased heart rate, influence of chemicals, drugs or alcohol, pre-existing medical conditions can play a part. What about pacemakers? Anything that punctures the skin is a potential infection path (unlikely to receive proper treatment, as say, a gunshot wound). There's also physical injury due to falling. IF the stink bombs are NON-TOXIC to humans (and I don't trust chemical companies at all), they might truly be a 'non-lethal' weapon.
.
P.S. Skunks stink is effective even against bears (who eat honey from active hives). When they take aim, it's time to get lost fast:)
.
...

albertMay 26, 2015 7:38 PM

@Bruce, moderator, etc.
.
I agree Andrew is tiresome, but the crack about homosexuals was way out of line. This sort of thing can start flame wars and hacking attempts that can be very disruptive. I like this blog, and I don't want that to happen.
.
@Andrew,
It's a shame that you have a black and white view of the world. Many do. But we live amid nuances that are often ignored. Labels like "pro police" and "pro government" are not useful. Speaking for myself, I see the need for police forces and governments. I am not 'against' them. What I AM against is lawless behavior by their members. Every avenue must be taken to fight this sort of thing, even up to the point of civil disobedience. The American Revolution was a violent uprising against an established King of the Land. It was not 'legal', in fact it was treason, but it WAS necessary when protest failed.
.
...

keinerMay 27, 2015 2:16 AM

OT: Why in the world is there ALWAYS and idi*t feeding the troll with some nonsense?

rgaffMay 27, 2015 5:11 AM

@ keiner

I dunno, but you guys keeping him busy here means other threads have nice conversations in them... everyone thanks you for your sacrifice :)

albertMay 27, 2015 7:29 AM

@keiner,
Don't get your panties in a bind, that was my last comment to Andrew. I felt it was necessary to go out with some rationality, and a little personal counselling. It was worth a try.
.
...

AlexMay 27, 2015 8:32 AM

Andrew Wallace is a highly educated scientist working in CCTV area (http://www.hw.ac.uk/schools/engineering-physical-sciences/staff-directory/am_wallace.htm )
It is likely that he make a profit from anti-terrorism and anti-riot rage.
And it is no surprise that rich man "satisfied with the police and government" because they are THEIR government and THEIR police. Not us.

MikeAMay 27, 2015 10:27 AM

@Alex: I would be astonished if our neighborhood troll is actually an identifiable person on the internet, especially one we would be predisposed to assume has ulterior motives. Try looking up "Joe Job".

Those of you falling for this stunt had better pray (or whatever atheists do) that you never become sufficiently visible to "them" to be a target for recruitment to a false-flag operation. Posting (multiple times) to a blog like this is a bad first step on that path.

Andrew WallaceMay 27, 2015 10:49 AM

I'm a real and identifiable person who will happily meet you in person if you are in the UK.

This is about people bullying me with labels because I don't suit their anti government narrative.

Andrew

Clive RobinsonMay 27, 2015 11:41 AM

@ Alex,

I would advise against trying to find the real person behind the poster that identifies themselves as Andrew Wallace, by name because it's quite a common name pairing.

If you search for my name in the UK you will find atleast five other security related people using the name "Clive Robinson" and I've met a few of them in the flesh and have had a laugh about it.

As I've also indicated in the past I actually look sufficiently un unique that people I don't know stop me in the street and say hello. But it's worse I have a couple of friends that look like me and some years ago we went on a group holiday (pissup-in-t'sun) to a place in Europe where the hotel "takes your passport". On returning the passports the hotel checkout girl swapped our passports, it was not untill quite some time back in the UK that I realised I had my friends passport and on telling them they looked and had mine. So so much for passport officers and imigration officers being able to tell you from your photo (or even notice that the name on the ticket was not the name in the passport either).

But worse people who know me very well and have done for years have at a hundred feet mistaken other people for me...

But all that aside, if you examine the real person at HW you think is the poster Andrew Wallace you will find they are quite different and the poster does not have the knowledge of the real person at HW, nor anything close to it.

Andrew WallaceMay 27, 2015 11:53 AM

Even to have this conversation is ridiculous. I will happily meet you in the UK and give you my full details. You have mistaken me as an internet troll which I strongly deny on in the strongest terms possible.

Andrew

AlexMay 27, 2015 12:04 PM

@Andrew Wallace, perhaps you are not a troll.
I see no "happiness" in meeting with fat bourgeois lackey either.
There are too plenty of them all around us.

ModeratorMay 27, 2015 12:36 PM

@Andrew Wallace

"I am pro police and pro government who stumbled upon this blog belonging to a pro police and pro government technologist and noticed something was weird: everyone in the comment section was anti government. I decided to go into the comment section and investigate the problem and challenge opinions that are different from mine."

With this statement you might just as well have declared that you are a troll: that you have approached this forum with your fists out, spoiling for a fight.

Yes, many regular participants in discussions on this blog hold opinions with which you disagree, and that may be inconsistent with the blog owner's opinions. These are not "problems" that need fixing, by you or anyone else.

Think of this forum as a security salon. If you intend to do little more than barge in the door, stand with arms akimbo, and declare your beliefs in short, repetitive bursts ("I am pro-police and pro-government!"); make inaccurate generalizations about other guests ("everyone in the comment section was anti-government"); make bigoted, offensive jokes about minorities ("if you're a very bad boy you'll be jailed with a bunch of homosexuals"); and provoke and sustain unproductive arguments, please leave.

ModeratorMay 27, 2015 12:42 PM

@Alex, this is a forum for discussion of security issues, not for crude sloganeering and personal abuse.

Andrew WallaceMay 27, 2015 2:53 PM

"The poster does not have the knowledge of the real person at HW, nor anything close to it."

What I know or don't know or what knowledge I bear is none of your business as an anonymous poster who does not link to any verifiable social media presence.

Indeed you are allowed to be anonymous on this Wordpress page but it lowers your credibility and authenticity greatly.

If you were a Clive Robinson of any note you would be able to link to a presence away from this blog.

You have been unable to do so. Therefore I call into question your motivations for being here and complaining about people out of spite.

"Malicious ill will prompting an urge to hurt or humiliate another person."

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/spite

Andrew

ZenzeroMay 27, 2015 3:45 PM

@ Troll

Calling long time posters credibility low when you have not posted a verified social media presence also is double standards. How dare you accuse posters when the only motivations that need to be called into play are yours, also your agenda which appears to be disparage, distort and divert conversation, not engage in it. Oh, and you have a very long history of it...

As you are linked to the AW of N3td3v fame, also admitted it on this very forum and a simple google search shows a similar AW of N3td3v fame with the same manner of speaking and distorting. The similarities between you cannot be ignored. I've seen your behaviour on other forums/mailing lists, I hope @Moderator makes a note to look into your long history of doing the exact same thing, in the exact same way on multiple forums/mailing list.

Grow up or go back to /b/

Andrew WallaceMay 27, 2015 3:59 PM

I'm 34 years old with a verifiable social media presence which links back to where my home town is if you look close enough.

I came here to discuss counter terrorism and other matters but have had my integrity attacked by people not linking to a verifiable social media presence.

Andrew

BystanderMay 27, 2015 4:09 PM

@tyr - I am with you concerning good governance, this also as introduction to the words below.

Stink bombs - I like to call them olfacory weapons have gone a long way in human history.
Primates throw their feces at others.
Butyric acid was popular to render places undesirable last century.
There is more than the above mentioned and more than I know...

What I see here is the motion to stigmatize people (the stink) taking into account that the 'side effects' have a larger extent into private life than other measures of so called 'crowd/riot control'.

The only comparative measure I see is the ink/pigment used to protect the money in ATMs by rendering it useless and marking the thiefs for better identification.

The latter is IMHO OK as we are dealing with a crime here.

For protests, using these olfactory weapons is off-scale.
Riots are mentioned as use-case, but given that the police in the US is now sometimes better equipped than the regular army and that the use of the taser has gotten out of hand I expect to see the use of these stink bombs at any regular protest soon.

Protests - the peaceful variant - are part of the democratic process and protected by the First Amendment, thus in no way criminal, but a human right and a political right.

Back to the duration of the effect of the stink bombs.
Being hit by such a stink bomb has certainly effect on private life and professional life and can be disruptive for both. This goes too far as it is an indiscriminate weapon contrary to the ink/pigment mentioned above.

The other aspect (already implicated in the previous paragraph) is that people hit by that stink bomb are stigmatized - at least for some time and maybe long enough to achieve a permanent effect - which helps to divide society more: Divide et impera.

rgaffMay 27, 2015 4:15 PM

@ Andrew Wallace

You will NOT discuss your assertions about how the authorities never make mistakes. I pleaded with you for hours and hours on end in a previous thread to discuss evidence for and against your statements, you refused. You would not do it.

@ moderator

Please take note of this, he only derails discussions and refuses to participate in them. Whenever called out on it, he claims he's being unjustly persecuted. Well, the evidence speaks for itself. Thank you for taking the interest you have in the matter so far.

Andrew WallaceMay 27, 2015 4:18 PM

"Grow up or go back to /b/"

I've never been involved in that web site. Do not socialise with those types of people what so ever in any shape or form.

Infact I have a distinct dislike for anyone who is anonymous online who attacks other peoples integrity.

I'm a 34 year old based in Glasgow and London who concentrates on counter terrorism.

I'm being forced into stupid online back and forth non sense at the moment by people with made up names.

Andrew

ZenzeroMay 27, 2015 5:11 PM

@ Troll

Nothing is verifiable about you. Your "verifiable" social media presence is a twitter account, which in itself is not verifiable. Also, your website domain registration links to a location, which on calling that location to communicate with you, it appears they've never heard of you, so your assertions are false, just like most of your previous email addresses generated to make multiple accounts on forums you were banned from.

You don't associate with /B/ ,did they instantly see and recognise you for what you are?

Andrew WallaceMay 27, 2015 5:19 PM

Zenzero

I ask you to stop antagonising me. I've told to leave me alone if you cannot post with a verifiable social media presence or proof of what career path you follow.

Andrew

ZenzeroMay 27, 2015 5:57 PM

@ Troll

oh I'm sorry for hitting to close to the truth. I won't refer to you again. To be honest, not worth the energy when you don't bother posting anything verifiable yourself, while asking others to... Irony.

You have a problem actually discussing anything and hide behind that excuse, if you don't want to actually have a discussion then I have no idea why your here other then to troll

Andrew WallaceMay 27, 2015 6:03 PM

You have not hit any truth you are a completely anonymous fictitious username who I do not want to associate with people of your nature who cannot use your real name, cannot link to your social media presence and show no sign of being a real person and are only here to attack my integrity while you remain protected under your completely anonymous fictitious username.

Good bye

ModeratorMay 27, 2015 7:00 PM

@ Andrew Wallace: That's it. If you don't want to associate with people who are not willing to stand for your belligerent manner or comply with your invasive demands, there's no point in you sticking around to pick fights and disparage longtime, productive contributors to this forum. You're out of here. Don't come back.

@ All: Please do not discuss Mr. Wallace (or n3td3v or any other aliases) any further. Please stay close to the subject of security, and to the content of posts published here.

ZenzeroMay 27, 2015 7:34 PM

@ Moderator

Thank you from many here.

@ All

Has there been any reported cases where "Skunk" has been used to date? or is it still in the experimental/testing stage (or worse case stockpiling)

Clive RobinsonMay 27, 2015 10:25 PM

I don't know if anyone else has mentioned that the name "skunk" could cause confussion as it's "herbal smoke" counter part is sometimes refered to as "the good 541t". I can see it being used as a youtube or other media comedy sketch that would get quite a few laughs in various audiance sectors.

Speaking of what might be considered toxic or not...

Some of you probably know that small amounts of chocolate can kill the family dog, and as vets can testify this can be a real problem around Christmas and Easter with young children.

What many don't know is chocolate is also poisonous to humans, it's just that the "LD50" is around 10Kg, which I think would be difficult for most humans to eat at one time. However please remember that the problem with this is the "LD50" is an assumed probability which means the leathal dose will change from person to person and could be a lot lower for various reasons.

And that's the problem with saying that chemicals like "skunk" are "non-toxic", it gives the wrong impression to people especialy poorly trained operators. That is the chemicals will have a leathal dosage that is beyond the expected levels that might be inhaled / injested / absorbed when skunk is used appropriately (within manufactures guide lines). However as we know some law enforcment officers can and do go more than a little crazy with peper spray and tassers and people have as a result died. Thus I suspect that some people will be killed by the indiscriminate use of such chemicals. Further that in the US for instance they would only start to officialy worry if the fatalities were up in the low hundreds each year or courts started handing out significant sanctions against LEOs. In other countries the acceptable leathal levels would be different, but a comparison could be made with "baton rounds" and "water canon" to see how risk averse the politicians are when it comes to "crowd control".

SamMay 28, 2015 12:20 AM

Suitable exit from a suitable thread, the subtle irony of, sublimal stink in the comments section is stank to the subconscious. No stink bomb required.

Farewell, Mr. Wallace. :)

WaelMay 28, 2015 12:47 AM

Well, for once the playing field is level! Similar products are available to civilians at Amazon. Here is a noteworthy sample of reviews. I couldn't stop laughing when I read some of these descriptions, and I read a significant portion of the 1699 reviews.

-- The only way I can explain the smell is imagine putting a pile of cat crap in a bathtub full of rotten eggs, and urine that has been farted, and vomited in, then left to sit in the sun for a couple weeks. Two squirts of it had my wife gagging and me rolling on the floor laughing. It is truly a soul shattering smell.

-- I swear to God, every time you even THINK of it, you will smell it! That's how bad It is.

-- I wasn't expecting much when I bought this stuff. I have a strong nose and a strong stomach so when I took the cap off and didn't vomit, I wasn't surprised. One spray...one....spray. The smell of 20 unwiped and unwashed colonic cavities burned off my nasal hairs, flipped my stomach, and made me question my religion. My nose was hallucinating. I wanted to hurt something . I called my mom two cities away to see if she could smell it. It peeled my lid back and dropped in the stench of wet homelessness. My cat panicked and ran away. Still missing. This is what the rectum of a cadaver smells like. Seriously. I'm getting this stuff tested in a lab to make sure there is no human dna found inside. All in all....a friendship ender.

-- I can concur with many of the other reviewers of this product (Liquid Ass) that the odor produced with two or three quick pumps of the spray could possibly end a marriage, bring tears to a glass eye and curl your toes [...] This stuff could conceivably knock a buzzard off a gut wagon and gag a maggot.

-- I read the CIA has a whole line of stenches and irritants for various uses. This surely has to be one of them. LIQUID ASS is more than a practical joke, it's pure evil.

-- If you are sent to hell, surely this is the smell you will suffer for all of eternity.

-- I went into my bathroom to test it out-- curiosity I guess-- and sprayed two squirts onto the surface of the toilet water. after approximately 10 seconds I realized my life was over. my entire being became a black cloud. all my dreams were shattered. I no longer had a reason to live. in an instant, everything that was good and pure in the world was gone. All the joy and happiness I had felt in my past life was completely forgotten, and my soul was utterly annihilated.

-- If Satan and Hitler had a baby, the smell of that brand new baby would smell better then this stuff! Liquid Ass is HORRID! I'd rather die a thousand deaths before ever smelling this again!

I can't imagine how the military-grade version of this thing smells like.

Clive RobinsonMay 28, 2015 6:48 AM

@ Wael,

A sniff (or odor) is worth a thousand words :)

Or a few misquotes,

"Would a rose be as sheet by any other name?"

"A faeces that launched a thousand shits"

I'll stop at that point as you will probably say "Are you sewerous?" To which I guess the only reply would be "There's plenty more where scat came from" ;-)

WaelMay 28, 2015 10:35 PM

@Clive Robinson,

There's plenty more where scat came from

I wouldn't doubt that for a second!
Clever quotes of shaekspear and the illyad

I messed with Shaekspear's name (the first half)... But didn't want to offend anyone, so I left it intact.

AlexMay 28, 2015 11:22 PM

Anyone got an MSDS on it? Federally, they're required to have this available if they plan on shipping it on the highways, unless the gov't has their own trucking service they plan on using to do so.

vas pupMay 30, 2015 11:37 AM

@all and Andrew;
- deliberation not = argument; in former you need to win in latter you are open minded and looking for truth being happy your position (not personality) is grinded for weakness(based on reciprocity);
- when 1000 people have some opinion, it does not make it truth. Truth is based on possibility of independent verification through experiment, logic, time you name it - not emotions.
- as for Skeptical before, you need good opponent to sharpen your point. One opponent is more valuable than 1000 same thinkers.

I personally pro less than lethal applications as less evil than lethal and providing spectrum/gradual violence application for LEOs and Intel based on tactical tasks. You have no choice between good and evil, only between evils of different grade.

nycmanJune 1, 2015 12:29 PM

I wonder if this would ever be used on, say, a Wall Street protest or a protest near any "high value" area? Somehow I doubt this will be used on protests near politician's houses or government/police buildings.

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