The Hacker Tool to Get Personal Data from Credit Bureaus

The new site 404 Media has a good article on how hackers are cheaply getting personal information from credit bureaus:

This is the result of a secret weapon criminals are selling access to online that appears to tap into an especially powerful set of data: the target’s credit header. This is personal information that the credit bureaus Experian, Equifax, and TransUnion have on most adults in America via their credit cards. Through a complex web of agreements and purchases, that data trickles down from the credit bureaus to other companies who offer it to debt collectors, insurance companies, and law enforcement.

A 404 Media investigation has found that criminals have managed to tap into that data supply chain, in some cases by stealing former law enforcement officer’s identities, and are selling unfettered access to their criminal cohorts online. The tool 404 Media tested has also been used to gather information on high profile targets such as Elon Musk, Joe Rogan, and even President Joe Biden, seemingly without restriction. 404 Media verified that although not always sensitive, at least some of that data is accurate.

Posted on September 7, 2023 at 7:09 AM31 Comments


Clive Robinson September 7, 2023 7:46 AM

@ ALL,

Data you don’t control is open to causing you harm.

It’s a numbers game that is the inverse of a lottery…

The tag line on a lottery is the mug bait,

“You’ve got to be in it to win it”

The inverse for credit cards and the like is,

“If you do it you can rue it”

Oh and as our host @Bruce noted many years ago, centralized databases are an invitation to criminals and worse.

Anonymous September 7, 2023 7:56 AM

Not to be mean, but I am coming back to your argument from your previous article about cryptocurrency startup:

“I can’t understand why anyone thinks these technologies are a good idea.”

Is it valid also with this centralized services like Experian, Equifax, and TransUnion and the privacy anonymity wise broken financial system? To follow the logic – is also this tech to be avoided?

I am just trying to understand the base and the consistency of the argument.

If it needs to be avoided, why and what is the alternative? And in the other side if it should not be avoided why is that?

Clive Robinson September 7, 2023 8:24 AM

@ Anonymous,

You’ve not asked the obvious question,

“Do people have sufficient choice?”

The answer is mostly they do not.

I’ve heard of people in the US refused dentistry and similar because they either can not or will not present a credit card even though they have a stack of cash in hand.

In the UK even though it is against the law, an increasing number of cafés and similar are,saying “Credit Card Only” on their doors.

As others have indicated you can save upwards of 20% by “buying online” and get it delivered ontop of that.

Not that long ago you could get “anonymous debit cards” that were as effective as “credit cards” not any longer… Because like most “anonymity systems” certain people use “think of the children” arguments to get them blocked or stopped for their own distinctly harmfull ends.

This is a very clear example of the very real harm such “we have the right” mentality idiots do. They might say “think of the children” but ask them “What about lives damaged by Identity theft and the harm that causes their children?” or “How many innocent bystanders, and their children?”

Don’t be surprised if their only response will be the equivalent of “The poop emoji”.

Clive Robinson September 7, 2023 8:55 AM

@ Bruce, ALL,

It’s not just credit cards and similar financial instruments…

Today The Register published,

“If you like to play along with the illusion of privacy, smart devices are a dumb idea”

“Depressingly predictable research from Which? serves as another reminder, if one was needed, that furnishing your home with internet-connected “smart” devices could be a dumb idea if you’d rather try to preserve your privacy.

The [Which] consumer rights organization’s analysis of a number of IoT products – from speakers and security cameras to TVs and washing machines – found that they all demand customer data above and beyond what is needed for the product to perform its function, and then distribute that information to a horde of faceless corporations.”

It’s the same game, where it appears the “Major Economic Activity” is “Selling out the customer” and “Making life easy for criminals and worse”.

Bob Paddock September 7, 2023 9:42 AM

@Clive Robinson

“The fact that nearly everyone in the US apparently likes “instant gratification convenience over their long term security” suggests they have not yet had a piece ripped out of them.”

Actually no.

As far as I can tell there is no way to remove my data from these Credit Credit Bureaus. I have tried and failed to get my info removed several times. Time to try again it would appear. If someone does know the secret, please share it with us all.

Experian has been the worst at leaking information, and the hardest to prove that you are the actually person the data belongs to.

Words Worth September 7, 2023 9:53 AM

Senator Wyden: “It is now clear that data brokers pose both a threat to U.S. national security and to Americans’ safety and privacy. These unaccountable companies have recklessly sold Americans’ information to agents working for foreign governments and have enabled hackers to access and sell Americans’ personal information to anyone with a credit card.”

Ted September 7, 2023 10:13 AM

@Moderator, Bruce

The fact that nearly everyone in the US…

The broad brush attacks on people based on country aren’t the reason I read and post here. Can you please clarify your stance on this speech?

Winter September 7, 2023 11:56 AM

Re: Clive

The fact that nearly everyone in the US…

I agree that this is a case of blaming the victim, be it directly or indirectly as blaming them not to vote out politicians that disregard privacy.

The fact is that these Credit Bureaus are part of the financial industry and this industry has an iron grip on US politics and government. Credit is what makes the US run.

Why this is so is a very long story.

Ted September 7, 2023 2:09 PM


Thank for your response. What I’m probably most interested in is how the @mod function works and what @Bruce thinks are (or are not) appropriate uses for it.

Winter September 7, 2023 2:37 PM


how the @mod function works

An example of security by obscurity.

Moderation only works if it constantly adapts.

Clive Robinson September 7, 2023 2:44 PM

@ Bob, Ted, Winter,

With regards,

“The fact that nearly everyone in the US…”

The figures availabke say over 8 in 10 American adults have one or more credit cards so like it or not that is factual.

Now to move on,

‘apparently likes “instant gratification convenience over their long term security”’

The credit card first appeard nearly a lifetime ago and has became very very popular due to US Financial institutions pushing them so hard. Ask yourself two questions,

1, Why they became so popular?
2, Why they are behind most US consumer debt?

As for,

‘suggests they have not yet had a piece ripped out of them.’

In the US credit cards are the basis or behind much theft be it directly or by identity theft.

The US Finance industry are very well aware of this and their supposed “fraud checks” still do not work.

Ask yourself why if so much fraud is as a result of this data the US Finance Industry does not take stronger measures to protect either card holders or merchants?

Our host @Bruce has in the past repeatedly pointed out that they “take the profit and dump the risk” by the process of “externalising risk”, “buying legislation”, and “rights striping” by amoungst other tgings making restorative litigation by the harmed so expensive it’s effectively not possible.

To say the US Financial Industry is in chahoots or actually a conspiracy with the criminals would probably pass the dictionary test…

You might not like what I’ve said but it is supported by evidence so no appology.

But you should also read my second and third comments.

@ Ted,

You deliberately left out the word apparently etc in your quote, which changed it’s tone.

@ Winter,

It’s not as you put it a long story, the US is by some definitions bankrupt. It only survives because it runs on so much debt it has littler or no chance of getting out of it in any of our lives or that of our grand children.

The US finance industry know this and mostly their existance is taking 10 or 20% off the top in one way or another and then it gets hidden by the likes of Quantative Easing.

The old economists view that debt drove production by consumption left out the one thing that every relator knows “location location location”. Creating debt in your country to create production in another country is not a smart way to behave. I’ve been saying that “out sourcing” and “off shoring” are very bad ideas for about as long as this blog has been going, and my logic does not appear to have been refuted.

@ ALL,

To this I now add the US polititians views of trying to ban sales to China under a variation of “International Traffic in Arms Regulations”(IATR) and “Export Administration Regulations”(EAR) is not just pointless it’s more harmfull to the US and it’s citizens than China and history shows the reasons are simple,

Firstly China will just move forward in aquiring what it needs to achive it’s stratigic goals thus develop it’s own compeating industry to sell in competition to others including the US. This has happened repeatedly since Japan started in on what we now call “Fast Moving Consumer Electronics”(FMCE) in the 1960’s.

Secondly the way the US politicians are going about it they are crippling the ability of US Companies to make sales not just Internationally but Domestically, thus killing the companies growth and economic benifit to the US both domestically and on the world stage. The harm this will cause to US Citizens is one of the reasons why certain events happened nearly just a couple or so years back.

JonKnowsNothing September 7, 2023 5:58 PM

@Clive, @ Bob, Ted, Winter, ALL

re: Some back history on US Credit Card Industry

Way before there were credit cards, people regularly had to use “the company store” to buy items, mostly food. The price was set by the company and the entire process of “the company town” was to keep people there by keeping them in perma-debt.

The USA used the UK mining villages for their blueprints and since many of our early Oligarchs came from over seas, they knew perfectly well how to keep the workers down the shaft and how to short change them to prevent them leaving.

When the credit cards first arrived, only men could get them. Women hardly ever were given credit on their own, (see other posts about how past views on gender remain active). It was a big deal if a woman had a credit card in her own name and not that of her husband (anything else was a non-starter).

It was expected that the cards would be paid off in 5+ years and would be used to finance purchases like refrigerators and washing machines (line drying was still permitted) that previously people saved up for years to buy.

  • Cash today is better than Cash 5 years from now

The USA had “usury laws” and in the interest rate was fixed at 3%. So not a lot of poor people got credit cards and later store cards followed the path to lock in sales at that store.

The pivot point happened in the USA when usury laws were removed. The interest rate skyrocketed along with the profits. Manufactures sold many more units than previously. Any dip in the available credit balance meant less units sold so there was pressure to keep the balances open. There was a split off from bank controlled cards to the new specialty short term loan business (visa, mastercard) and the bank restrictions fell away.

Some current reports are that people have more than a life time of owed balances. What a lot of folks do not realize is that on their death, those balances come due as part of the demand on the estate.

  • If you have the card in your own name and not as a join card, only you are responsible for the amount and on your death it becomes noncollectable and a write off.
    ** EXCEPT if there is an inheritance, insurance or assets in a Trust then the amount will be taken from those.


RL anecdote tl;dr

A couple held multiple cards but each in their own names. One or more of the cards was used to buy inventory for a business. The business spouse died, leaving $130,000 debt on the cards in their name only.

The surviving spouse was given a waiver on the debt that it was not collectable from them

There was a Trust with housing, stocks, bonds, cash etc. The credit card placed a claim on the Trust for then full amount of $130,000. The Trust was required to pay it off.

  • The survivor didn’t have to pay. The Trust paid. The Trust was for the Survivor. The survivor ended up paying anyway.

Ted September 7, 2023 6:11 PM

@JKN, Winter, Clive, All

You know what … I’m halfway through studying for a cert so I’ll probably just focus on that, maybe some writing if I can figure out how to organize a process. Carry on.

JonKnowsNothing September 7, 2023 9:41 PM


re: Certs and Certainty

As you move along the path, you will discover that there are many forks in the road. Each one leads to a different aspect of what you thought you were learning.

There are some who are excellent in Maths and Electrical Engineering. They are deep divers into the fundamentals of how it all works.

  • Like how a one time pad (OTP) works and how it doesn’t.

There are others who specialize in figuring out how to use it. How to put it into actual practice.

  • Who has a one time pad up their sleeve? Not too many.

As you work on your Cert, consider carefully what you want to do with it.

Anonymous September 8, 2023 12:25 AM

@Clive Robinson

I understand what you mean but my point was about the consistency in the argument.

If one type of business was to be avoided for bad security practices the other business doing the same should be avoided too. My question is if that is the case.

To the alternatives. The cryptocurrencies offer such alternative. And yes it is not perfect and will never be. The only thing is that government is actively trying to mess with it. They effectively try to bring it into the same shit the centralized financial system is now.

Why not to use decentralized solutions that offer privacy and anonymity by default and give people sovereignty and freedom. Instead of forcing the people to use flawed by design system?

What they care about is control and that’s it.

The people who don’t want to be the next Canadian truckers locked out from their money and lives will look for the alternatives. And there are some already.

Winter September 8, 2023 1:37 AM


It’s not as you put it a long story, the US is by some definitions bankrupt.

All the US debts are in US dollars. You are never bankrupt when you print your own money. The worst that can happen is that no one wants US$ anymore.

It only survives because it runs on so much debt it has littler or no chance of getting out of it in any of our lives or that of our grand children.

See above point. Inflation can melt away all debts. However, at the moment the US has a net capital influx of ~$500B/y. This is mostly petrodollars going home as they have nowhere else to go [1].

The US finance industry know this and mostly their existance is taking 10 or 20% off the top in one way or another and then it gets hidden by the likes of Quantative Easing.

It is more devious. To earn a living in the US you need a car, a house, and a degree. Also, you need health care. So before you can start earning money you will have racked up debt for a car, a degree, and either rent or a mortgage. If you ever you get sick, US Health Care will take every cent you have and will ever make.

At 10-20% interest, you will pay a large part of whatever you might earn in your life to “others”.

There are people who claim “Debt is slavery”. They do have a point.

Creating debt in your country to create production in another country is not a smart way to behave.

Except that the money flows back to the US. The $500B/y positive capital account is in excess of the debt payments. What can these foreigners do with these US dollars than spend or invest them in the US? As long as the US pays in dollars and oil is paid in dollars, all is well.

[1] China fell out of favor when they did not return their dollars to the US but used them for their belt and roads initiative. Using US dollars earned for anything but investments in the US is considered an act of war.

Winter September 8, 2023 3:57 AM

Re: Credit Industry

For those who want to dive into who pays/earns what in the CC business:

As expected, heavy revolvers use their cards less for purchases than light revolvers or transactors, with the average heavy revolver spending just $200 a month on their credit card. The average light revolver (transactor) spends $640 ($825). In all, transactors account for 40 percent of credit card purchases, light revolvers account for 35 percent, and heavy revolvers account for less than 10 percent. The average heavy revolver has an end of statement balance of almost $4,500, of which more than $4,100 is revolving balance. By contrast, the average light revolver (transactor) has a balance of about $1,700 ($750), of which almost $1,000 (0) is revolving balance. In all, more than 50 percent of total balances and about two-thirds of total revolving balances are held by heavy revolvers. Light revolvers hold about 22 percent of total revolving balances.

PaulBart September 8, 2023 8:21 AM


Painting with broad brushes winds up painting over nuances.

I use CC as a middle man between myself and unscrupulous merchants. Security, plus the perks, like cashback, and rental and loss coverage.

Winter September 8, 2023 8:50 AM


I use CC as a middle man between myself and unscrupulous merchants. Security, plus the perks, like cashback, and rental and loss coverage.

So you are one of the 66M “transactors”. As by the link I posted above, there are about 63M “heavy revolvers” and 79M “light revolvers”, people who end the month with a debt:

The average heavy revolver has an end of statement balance of almost $4,500, of which more than $4,100 is revolving balance.

I guess these are not people who have the money to get rid of the debt. Note that heavy revolvers do not buy much on credit card:

As expected, heavy revolvers use their cards less for purchases than light revolvers or transactors, with the average heavy revolver spending just $200 a month on their credit card.

That is, with a $4,500 of debts, the spend only $200 on purchases. Transactors spend on average $825 a month on their CC. So I guess transactors have money to spend, revolvers have debts to service.

Clive Robinson September 8, 2023 12:10 PM

@ Anonymous,

Re : What business

“If one type of business was to be avoided for bad security practices the other business doing the same should be avoided too. My question is if that is the case.”

Not realy because it may not be relevant to what you are trying to achieve.

Normally we talk about “Risks” based on other “games” but people do play “rigged games” and still win against those rigging them. They claim their success is nowing when to get in and importantly out in a way where you have a benifit better than you would in an “honest game”.

So you look for “Benifit v. Risk” on each and every game, not on the industry.

Whilst benifits are peculiar to individuals, risks tend to be general.

Risks, are based on,

1, Variability
2, Velocity
3, Harms
4, Regulatory
5, Residuals

In the case of variability you have changes that have both direction and velocity. Direction can be seen as a trend perturbed by “noise” that takes ot away from a base direction. Those that can predict the various trends can take advantage of them. Which brings into question time. If you can get news faster than an opponent then you can get inside their turning circle of their decision loop. If you can also respond faster than they can then you can outperform them, thus profit at their expense. This is basically what “High Frequency Trading”(HFT) is all about in essence playing the “OODA Loop of trading”[1] tighter than others. It is not realy about skill knowledge or stratagy, just the ability to use an opponents time delays to your benifit by shortening them in variois ways[2].

All games of chance which finance investments are are subject to the OODA loop reasoning. To try and stop the advantage to others the, xchanges prioratize certain trades over others (much as happens with those “stock brokers” who buy and sell shares[3]).

Obviously the higher the velocity these changes happen, the less time ordinary people have to get advantage, and the mote advantage the exchanges have to play you.

But every economic activity is not carried out in issolation, they are all at some point based on “work” that involves “inefficiency” and “energy in”. Crypto Currencies have the worst efficiency of just about every activity you consider. Gigawatts of energy to produce a list of numbers that you could write on a piece of paper.

Such energy does not come from “nowhere” or go “nowhere” they add to all the other “waste energy” causing some form of environmental “harm”. Such “harms” effect us all detrementally eventually so it is a significant risk factor.

Other harms are “market instability”, “economic instability” and thus “National Security”.

Which gets politicians not just hot under the collar but keen to change things by regulation and legislation.

There is nothing stopping a bunch of politicians producing legislation that makes all processes in crypto currency production and trading illegal, thus making your piece of paper with a number written on it worth about as much as that piece of toilet paper you flushed not so long ago.

That is crypto currencies have no inherent worth thus residual value.

A room full of coins might have no spending value but melt them down and refine out the metals and you will almost certainly have residual value. The older they are the likely hood is the residual value is higher.

For instance in the UK when we stopped using 240pennies or 20schillings to the pound the scrap metal value to the Royal Mint was immense. Even the new bronze coins issued actually now have a considerably higher residual value than their minted face value.

I have a couple of tubes of “pocket change” from earlier in my life thanks to a film about Glen Miller. The refined metal value alone vastly exceeds the face value including “official” inflation. But as always in life there are people who give premium value to thinks that are old / rare / scarce / irreplacable.

Between you and me what residual value do you think the integers that make bitcoins will have if they are made entirely illegal?

Yes there are other considerations but just comparing one bad system with another bad sustem does not make either of them better systems.

Comparison across the widest set of risks might give you information like “least face value risk” and “highest residual value” in which case we would be talking about bullion coins in precious metals.

But remember what the US Gov did with gold back in the 1933 using EO 6102, issued under the hand of Franklin D Roosevelt and it was a real “Might is Right” con game. It seized all gold bullion and coins forcing citizens to sell at well below market rates, thus denying them even the fair residual value. Almost immediately after the effective “grab at gun pont” Roosevelt and his cronies then set a new official rate for gold that was much higher as part of the Gold Reserve Act 1934. Oh and in the process effectively devaluing the paper dollar by a very significant amount.

As my father once told me about politics, what might be imposible the first time, becomes ever easier each time there after.

As @JonKnowsNothing, has pointed out in the past nothing is safe from “Might is Right” thinking prevelant in the land of the Corperation, even the home you own can be taken by trivial legal tricks. Worse even the rain that falls from the sky onto your land so you can grow food in many places is not yours.

What ever has sufficient value to rob, has sufficient interest to somebody with a pocket full of legislation to grab… And the only way to survive is by being,

1, Mightier
2, Not there to be robbed
3, Sufficiently inside their OODA that you in effect rob them.
4, To diverse and fluid to be robbed on all fronts simultaniously thus flow around them.

Whilst large Corps might appear “Mightier” they are actually not, they actually use shell companies etc in foreign countries so they are “Not there to be robbed” they also bribe those in power. This bribary works because the tiny slice that goes in the legislators pocket to turn a blind eye is way way greater than the slice they would get from legislatively grabbing all the Corps assets, if they could which would be doubtfull. If you want an education in money laundering examin how Corporates avoid paying tax and then claim it back as losses…

Also Corps due to lobbying are usually well within the legislators OODA, thus with their diversity and fluidity across national boarders usually get away with little loss.

It’s one of the reasons the EU putting in place fines based on entire corporate financial movments caused such shock in Silicon Valley, they thought they would always be able to “skip across the boarder”…

The Corporates will now adjust in various ways. I wrote a report on how to do this for a friends company a decade ago when a certain idiot in the UK went after them like a rabid dog. Whilst this is not to difficult to do for “untraded companies” Corps of the Silicon Valley scale arr almost always traded, thus to maintain their artificial share value they have to declare the figuers the EU went after, to get investors to buy their over inflated shares.

So the two rules,

1, Don’t say anything.
2, Fleetly fly in darkness or by daylight to stay out of sight.

If you think there is any other way to avoid this “Might is Right” game you are very probably mistaken. But one thing is certain crypto currancy, NFTs, Smart Contracts and similar are not the way, other than for crooks to enrich themselves briefly at the expense of others less savvy.

Remember that to function all the crypto currencies, NFTs and Smart Contracts break rule number one,

“Don’t say anything”

Because to avoid the “double spend” or equivalent problems they all leave a certified public paper trail that can be walked backwards.

Oh and to try and recover value, also breaks the second rule,

“Stay out of sight”

Because you have to in effect be public to transfer the coins etc via that public certified paper trail.

[1] The “Observe-Orient-Decide-Act”(OODA) loop is a cycle that you try to turn into an advantage by being able to “get inside the opponents loop” which can become a “spiral game” and certainly has with “High Frequency Trading”(HFT) where beating the speed of light at any cost[2] has made life interesting. The OODA loop was developed by US military strategist, Air Force Colonel John Boyd and has since moved on to many many applications I doubt he could have predicted.

[2] We are told the speed of light is the fastest thing in our universe and it therefore can not be beat. Whilst currently held as being true it does not mean you can not cheat in some way. We know that To get information from A to B requires two times that are additive. The first is the length of time it takes light to get from A to B by the shortest available path, the only way to reduce this is by getting closer in some way (and why HF radio is being seriously looked at). The second is due to sending the information from the first bit to the last bit requires “Channel bandwidth” or more importantly it’s inverse “time”. Thus readducing information and thus time is possible even when you can not expand bandwidth. The question is how, obviously it will involve “data compression” but can we do better? Simple answer is “Yes a lot better”. How? By sending it ahead of time… Sounds impossible but it’s not, you use a simple trick that is more than a thousand years old, you use the old secrecy system of a “code book”. That is you send the bulk of the information in advance to cover all the eventualities you want to cover and you give each a very short identifier. Then you only need send the identifier at the appropriate time. Lets say there are eight eventualities you have decided are of relevance, then all you have to do at the appropriate time is send three bits of data at as higher bandwidth thus lowest time delay you are alowed. Yes there are dangers in that noise may cause a bit to get flipped, but by carefull use of coding theory you can maximise the error distance between the messages –see Hamming distance for a starting point– thus minimise the risk. Another trick is to have standard codes for each eventuality and have a second code for a particular trade. If you interleave the numbers correctly you can minimise the response time at the receiver by effectively running the code book lookups in parallel.

[3] You can be sure that when they tally up if a group of trades for a particular share went well their favourd traders will be at the front of the que thus get the best rate, whilst you will probably get the tail or worst and if it is a bad trade you will be first to get the hit. More fun is offseting, where they have two opposit trades to buy and sell the same share. If you are selling you will get not just commission but the days “low rate” and the buyer will likewise get commission but the days “high rate” so whilst your sahres might only get you $25/share the buyer will give the house $30 for each of your shares…

denton scratch September 8, 2023 12:34 PM


(line drying was still permitted)

You seem to be UK-based: when was line-drying forbidden?

JonKnowsNothing September 8, 2023 6:07 PM

@denton scratch

re: when was line-drying forbidden?

In the USA, there are many neighborhoods and city ordinances that prevent people from line drying their clothes.

Housing divisions & Condos with HOA CC&R rules or Apartments with rental limitations, often prohibit anything that can be seen from the street, by a neighbor, over the wall-fence or of from a 2nd story unit.

Where I live, you cannot have a visible clothes line, you cannot hang your clothes outside, and you cannot set out wet bathing suits, swim towels etc to dry in the sun.

Some apartments will prohibit the running of a drying line on an open balcony. They also prohibit stashing a bike on the balcony.

If the urban unit has washer and dryer inside, personal or community access, line drying maybe limited.

I don’t know about the UK.

Winter September 9, 2023 3:34 AM


Where I live, you cannot have a visible clothes line, you cannot hang your clothes outside, and you cannot set out wet bathing suits, swim towels etc to dry in the sun.

Land of the Free! Live Free Or Die!

Sorry, could not resist

JonKnowsNothing September 9, 2023 4:31 AM


The USA has many mottoes, sayings, inspirational writings but we remain fundamentally a nation of rules. Some rules are bigger than other rules.

It’s a rather large pyramid of rules that cascade down to the size of your lawn, the days you can water, when you can line up for petrol and which side of the road you drive on, and pesky little variations on

  • When can you make a right turn after coming to a full stop at a red light.

Many things that people think are laws are not laws at all. Our famous Declaration of Independence phrase “Life, Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness” is not a law at all. It is a statement of aspiration.

And that’s the best definition of the USA one can find:

  • We are a nation of aspirations

We rarely get it “right” but when we do, the results are beyond anything found anywhere else. We retain the ability to change our minds and we do every 2, 4, 6 years.

We have had our Civil War and the reasons and outcomes have yet to be resolved 150 years later. We still aspire to fulfill the aspiration stated on November 19, 1863, just 87 years after the Declaration of Independence.

… that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

We are a work in progress.


ht tps://en.wikipedia.o r g/wiki/Life,_Liberty_and_the_pursuit_of_Happiness

ht tps://en.wikipedia.o r g/wiki/Gettysburg_address

(url fractured)

Clive Robinson September 9, 2023 9:52 AM

@ Winter, JonKnowsNothing,

Part 3,

Behind it all you find what we call “Corporate greed” and “self entitlement” these days. Mainly because the people behind it find faceless companies make great shields, to keep their actions and assets safe behind. But the message via religion to ensure modern slavery goes on is still going strong.

And it gets easier… Apparently according to some sources,

1, The US border fence is being found sold as scrap metal from Gov sources.

2, The US border fence is being taken down by numerous Criminal Gangs along the Texas border.

3, Thousands of criminals are comming through pretending to be imigrants to escape their own nations security forces.

4, Texas is apparently now bussing hundreds if not thousands of these criminals up to the NE and places like NY and Washington under Abbot’s “Lone Star Policy”[2].

5, DC has had to call out for National Guard help to try to deal with it[3].

Clive Robinson September 9, 2023 9:55 AM

@ Winter, JonKnowsNothing,

Part 4,

I know it’s not popular but people need to know that the number of criminals in imigrants is way way higher than in any equivalent sized domestic population. And where the criminals go trouble of a violent and deadly nature almost immediatly follows as normal and we see it all over the world. Because for criminals human missery and lack of authority is a natural segue as sewers are to rats. And with them comes “Human trafficking” and the most base of crimes against humanity because there is immense amounts of wealth to be made.

Unfortunately the criminals though few in comparitive numbers create vastly disproportional effects and whilst the self entitled use Corporations to hide behind, the criminals hide behind the actual immagrants that are not criminal but just trying to in most cases survive as best they can. In a way the criminals set up their own “Police States” within imigrant populations and the populations quickly get seen in that light.

Which enables others to easily carry on striping humans of their rights and using them as commodities.

Clive Robinson September 9, 2023 10:19 AM

@ Winter, JonKnowsNothing,

Part 7a,

As the auto-mod won’t pass that UK Independent link, even split up int lots of bits on seperate lines

Just search for,

“Washington DC mayor calls for National Guard to help with migrants being bused in from Texas and Arizona”

And it should pull it up.

JonKnowsNothing September 9, 2023 1:08 PM

@Clive, @Winter, All

re: The past is prologue

There are few places on the planet that do not have similar problems. The problems of historical, judicial, legal, financial exploitation are not just old history. They are current history.

Depending on where you are within a society, you might not see the problems around you and for decades this was the main method to ignore the reality for the majority of the planet.

When given an opportunity to exploit a situation, there will be some who will do so, and to extend the exploit as far as they can.

  • The USA has rolled back child labor laws
  • The Courts in California have cleared the University of California, Berkeley to raise Peoples Park to put in housing. Erasing the importance of what took place there with concrete & high rises.

but there is also this

  • Bruce’s Beach in Los Angeles, California was returned to the descendants of Charles and Willa Bruce who in 1912 built Bruce’s Beach a successful and popular visitor destination for African Americans.
  • The United States Secretary of the Interior continues to remove derogatory names from Federal lands. More than 660 new names assigned.

It’s a mixed bag and it changes over time. For many in the USA, a large portion came from “over there”. We often forget what we left behind “over there”; in reality it was no better than what we found “over here”. We just hoped it would be better.

It’s facile to think history is over and done.

I remember the burning crosses. I remember the white robes. I remember the heat. I remember the hate. I remember the fear.

What do you remember?


ht tps://en.wikipedia.o r g/wiki/People%27s_Park_(Berkeley)

  • The park was created during the radical political activism of the late 1960s

ht tps://en.wikipedia.o r g/wiki/Bruce%27s_Beach

  • Bruce’s Beach was an African-American beach resort at Manhattan Beach in Los Angeles County, California.
  • in 1924 the city of Manhattan Beach council used eminent domain to close it down on the grounds that the area was to be redeveloped as a public park.
  • On April 20, 2021, LA County Supervisors voted unanimously to approve returning the county land where the LifeGuard Station was located to the family’s descendants.

h ttps://en.wikipedia. or g/wiki/High_on_the_Hog:_How_African_American_Cuisine_Transformed_America

  • A documentary series: a history revealed, a history remembered and a history honored.

(url fractured)

Winter September 9, 2023 1:16 PM

Re: my error

I just post the link. Text does not come through. Look for end of reconstruction


Winter September 9, 2023 1:21 PM


There are few places on the planet that do not have similar problems.

All former slave economies have similar problems of structural racism, segregation, and discrimination. Whether it is in the Americas, Gulf states, or Africa.

Other countries have other problems.

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