Secret White House Warrantless Surveillance Program

There seems to be no end to warrantless surveillance:

According to the letter, a surveillance program now known as Data Analytical Services (DAS) has for more than a decade allowed federal, state, and local law enforcement agencies to mine the details of Americans’ calls, analyzing the phone records of countless people who are not suspected of any crime, including victims. Using a technique known as chain analysis, the program targets not only those in direct phone contact with a criminal suspect but anyone with whom those individuals have been in contact as well.

The DAS program, formerly known as Hemisphere, is run in coordination with the telecom giant AT&T, which captures and conducts analysis of US call records for law enforcement agencies, from local police and sheriffs’ departments to US customs offices and postal inspectors across the country, according to a White House memo reviewed by WIRED. Records show that the White House has, for the past decade, provided more than $6 million to the program, which allows the targeting of the records of any calls that use AT&T’s infrastructure—­a maze of routers and switches that crisscross the United States.

Tags: , , , ,

Posted on November 27, 2023 at 6:59 AM • 68 Comments

Comments

PaulBart • November 27, 2023 7:14 AM

Yawn. Wikileaks Assange still in jail. Snowden still fugitive in Russia. Hillary and the “missing” emails still not “found”.

Lets have state-sponsored health care. Nothing says government boot tastes delicious like having your medical records and health issues handled by the state. Mmm-mmm good.

spiderplebe • November 27, 2023 7:51 AM

re: Pauls comment

WTH, exactly and speicifically, is your comment meant to say?

And, the fact I’m having to ask for clarification from you, (on, what? around five broken sentences), should say something to you ABOUT your commentary skills (they’re very poor, iow).

He’s talking about a warrantless surveillance program and you come along to start expanding the topic to something else altogether? Gee, WHO does THAT sound like? (smells like Fasci to me)

Clive Robinson • November 27, 2023 8:08 AM

@ Bruce,

Re : Jeremy Bentham had a point.

“There seems to be no end to warrantless surveillance:”

Without suitable pursuit and punishment there is no stay on unlawful behaviour.

As those in public office carrying out “warrantless surveillance” see only profit and promotion, never approbation, loss, or holding to account.

I hearby prophesie that not only will “warrantless surveillance” continue unabated, it will in fact get worse as technology makes it both easier and less costly to do so.

Worse I also prophesie that even if some effective measure of approbation is brought in and even enforced. The work will simply be “out-sourced” as LEOs have done with data brokers and the likes of Palantir, or “Off-shored” via other SigInt and similar in other Nations, as we saw with the encryption-phones.

How we stop something like this requires draconian measures which with current drifting in the West to authoritarian right-wing and Strong-Men politicians is not something that is going to happen till Hell has chiled below absolute zero. Or after another World War and all the atrocities that warrantless surveillance will unleash.

George Santayana also had a very valid point,

“Those Who Do Not Learn History Are Doomed To Repeat It.”

R.Cake • November 27, 2023 8:36 AM

the point that surprised me the most in this article was actually the 6M$ mentioned. That is not a particularly high sum, and it surprises me that they would not ask for more, especially for what was allegedly done here. I cannot imagine that you could accomplish total phone system metadata(?) capture for an entire country over 10 years for this sum… but then, who am I to tell…

Winter • November 27, 2023 8:41 AM

@PaulBart

Lets have state-sponsored health care.

I heard that the State-Sponsered Health Care in the US (MediCare and MedicAid) are the better and more efficient part of the Health Care Mess of the USA.

The State Sponsored Health care in the other OESO countries are generally better and always more efficient than the Private Health Care in the USA.

U.S. Health Care from a Global Perspective, 2022: Accelerating Spending, Worsening Outcomes
‘https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2023/jan/us-health-care-global-perspective-2022

Highlights

  • Health care spending, both per person and as a share of GDP, continues to be far higher in the United States than in other high-income countries. Yet the U.S. is the only country that doesn’t have universal health coverage.
  • The U.S. has the lowest life expectancy at birth, the highest death rates for avoidable or treatable conditions, the highest maternal and infant mortality, and among the highest suicide rates.
  • The U.S. has the highest rate of people with multiple chronic conditions and an obesity rate nearly twice the OECD average.
  • Americans see physicians less often than people in most other countries and have among the lowest rate of practicing physicians and hospital beds per 1,000 population.
  • Screening rates for breast and colorectal cancer and vaccination for flu in the U.S. are among the highest, but COVID-19 vaccination trails many nations.

See Also:
‘https://www.commonwealthfund.org/sites/default/files/documents/___media_files_publications_issue_brief_2011_jul_1532_squires_us_hlt_sys_comparison_12_nations_intl_brief_v2.pdf

Clive Robinson • November 27, 2023 9:14 AM

@ R.Cake,

Re : Pipes are not water.

“That is not a particularly high sum, and it surprises me that they would not ask for more, especially for what was allegedly done here.”

You pay a plumber to install a pipe and tap and occasionally maintain them.

It is just a to the point delivery system, not the service of providing water you pay a great deal more for via a different payment route.

That 6mill is just for the equivalent of the pipe and tap. You can be assured AT&T is making a great deal more through the supply of service ie the data, the searches and the training. Also no doubt the information is making it’s way to other “profit centers” othereise AT&T would not have started collecting and keeping it since atleast the mid 1980’s.

Interestingly though the article mentions it’s all done through a single entity in one location, without being clear if the entity is an individual, a team, or larger department within AT&T. Or how the search requests are submitted. Thus the entity could just be a check-box checking entity looking to see a copy of the “required” minimal paperwork (self issued subpoena) to cover AT&T’s back.

Aaron • November 27, 2023 10:19 AM

A government should know next to nothing about its people.
A people should know almost everything about their government.

The world is upside-down

For those who jumped all over @PaulBlart, you’re missing his point.
People who exposed illegal government actions are still prosecuted as criminals.
Government individuals who perform illegal actions are still in government.

The world is upside-down

The 4th Amendment of the US Constitution prohibits programs like this.
Yet it persists and gains funding

The world is upside-down

Kent Brockman • November 27, 2023 11:28 AM

“In a letter to US attorney general Merrick Garland on Sunday, Wyden wrote that he had “serious concerns about the legality” of the DAS program, adding that “troubling information” he’d received “would justifiably outrage many Americans and other members of Congress.”

I’m sure Merrick “sleepy” Garland will get right on this, the same way his sloth is going to allow Trump to gain the WH.

JonKnowsNothing • November 27, 2023 11:50 AM

@Aaron

re: You missed the memo – along with millions of others

  • The 4th Amendment of the US Constitution prohibits programs like this

No, No, No it doesn’t – anymore.

A good number of years back, before the NSA lost control of the narrative, they used to claim they did everything according to the “commonly understood meaning” of the 4th amendment: Get a Warrant.

Once they began to lose control, they were confronted by their real usage of this amendment. There are videos of the debate with Gen Michael Hayden on this topic along with a laugh track at what he said. He said it plain and clear.

Gen Hayden is one smart guy and you never want to enter a debate with him.

  • The 4th states that “unreasonable” searches require a warrant
  • It does not say ALL searches require a warrant, only “unreasonable” ones

So, it was quite simple logic shift

  • All searches are now “reasonable” and not “unreasonable”
  • All searches include “everything” the new definition of “relevant”

So the NSA, CIA, All USA Leas do not need a warrant unless they want to.

If they want to arrest someone and charge them with some crime, they will get a warrant via parallel construction for the courts.

  • From the Game of Thrones, where the Queen rips up the warrant. It’s just a piece of paper. Today it isn’t even paper, it’s electronic 10101010101. Image what you can do with those.

AL • November 27, 2023 11:54 AM

I think we can dispense with the question on whether we’re a country of law. We’re not. Have any questions, just ask Jeffrey Epstein.

Clive Robinson • November 27, 2023 12:13 PM

@ Kent Brockman,

Re : Seen to be, is not the same as doing.

“I’m sure Merrick “sleepy” Garland will get right on this,”

There is an oft quoted saying of,

“If you want something done quickly, give it to a busy person.”

But it has a rider of,

“If you don’t want something done or done slowely, give it to a person with too much time to fill.”

The latter is a great way to CYA, because you can show you acted, not just responsibly but in a timely fashion…

It’s a variation on putting a pre-dated letter “in internal mail” the recipient gets it but unlike regular mail there is no independent date stamp on it so you can claim you acted in time… Another trick is writing your letter on a friday with say a seven day deadline in it, then taking it down to the mail room and putting it through the franking machine, but not putting it in the out tray untill after someone has taken the mail to the post office that way it does not go till Monday and the recipient is lucky to get it by wednesday. Other tricks were franking an empty envelop on friday and spend the weekend putting a letter together then dropping it in a post box on the Monday morning.

I have a long long list of such tricks and have caught people out doing them with other tricks.

Aaron • November 27, 2023 6:29 PM

@JonKnowsNothing

I didn’t miss the memo

I served under Gen. “Porky the Pig” Hayden

The memo is an illegitimate power grab from a long line of 3 letter agencies that no longer serve the purpose in which they were commissioned for.

Clive Robinson • November 27, 2023 7:19 PM

@ Aaron, JonKnowsNothing, ALL,

Re : Evolution in action.

“…an illegitimate power grab from a long line of 3 letter agencies that no longer serve the purpose in which they were commissioned for.”

The thing about “Three Letter Agencies”(TLAs) and similar is,

“Evolution by Empire Building”

In the US especially they create an entity to do a specific job. Look at how many “War on XXX” get agencies specifically created, and how the “War on XXX” is never won and never questioned in the two houses, the entities just go on endlessly.

The thing is all such entities behave like living organisms and there are two forms of evolution,

1, Survival of the individual
2, Survival of the species.

And more often than people realise the two are in competition, and this is esspecially true of such entities.

As “individual” entities they can only survive in one of two ways,

1, Never complete the original task.
2, Get new or additional tasks.

Whilst the first works the entity can be killed off by attrition by simply not alowing the entity to grow or replace exiting staff. Or by having it’s role diminished or broken up and reassigned to other entities.

So the second trick is to build an empire and grab tasks away from other entities untill as an entity it is “to big to kill”.

Either way the “individual” entity evolution is generally at the expense of the “species” we call government evolution. Because the size of the pot is fixed, so for each win by one entity there has to be a commensurate loss by one or more other entities.

So the name of the game as an entity is “Empire Build” as rapidly as possible, and keep expanding by grabing tasks and resources even after the entity has crossed the “to big to kill” line.

So no task no matter how small or how unrelated should be passed as that then becomes a win for some other entity thus a loss for this entity. Which is why entities,

“no longer serve the purpose in which they were commissioned for”

As Shakespeare noted,

“The noble Brutus Hath told you Caesar was ambitious: If it were so, it was a grievous fault, And grievously hath Caesar answer’d it.”

Caesar’s real failing was not ambition, but to “finish the task” thus he could be killed off, and was.

vas pup • November 27, 2023 7:26 PM

Wow! Now I understand why AT&T immune for many years of antitrust investigations of federal authorities. I was thinking it was just huge contributions to election funds of both major parties – AT&T just ready to do everything far beyond what law required for surveillance.

So, why their caller id name service is degrading substantially from year to year when they actually have real name of the caller or organization? FTC is silent on that as well as on substantial increase fee for land line service by AT&T for private citizens higher than year inflation. Cost of land line long distant calls is astronomical.

Mr. Wyden should initiate antitrust investigation of AT&T both by FTC and Congress as effective first step to fight giant net and cut legs of this ‘spider’.

JonKnowsNothing • November 27, 2023 7:28 PM

@Aaron, All

re:an illegitimate power grab from a long line of 3 letter agencies that no longer serve the purpose in which they were commissioned

I don’t disagree.

Unfortunately others in our national government and judiciary do not share the same view. So far, both the US Congress and US Senate and US Supreme Court have decided that the “founders view” agree with the LEA’s interpretation.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures

When every aspect is considered “reasonable” the next bit does not apply either.

no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,

Since the searches are “reasonable” there is no warranted needed and no US LEA needs to show “probable cause”.

There have been a number of attempts to “fix this” by removing words like “unreasonable” so that every search needs a warrant with probably cause. There several impediments to getting this change

1) There are a lot of nosy-parkers in the world

2) There is a lot of money on the table that would not be there otherwise. HiTech might have a recession if they couldn’t sell their kit to LEA outfits.

3) There’s a lot of folks who believe they are the “One True Champion of Their Country and Everyone Else is a Wishy-washy (expletives deleted)” (paraphrased)

4) The mechanics of getting approvals and ratification is designed to prevent too much Current Event Tampering. Things that seem good today might not be so good tomorrow. After the spin-machines get done with changes you end up with more variations similar to “Relevant means All” and “FISA Courts”.

vas pup • November 27, 2023 7:45 PM

Small addition: when AT&T took control over DirectTV, you can guess what was the first action: increase service fee for cable TV users. I doubt those additional fee went to technicians, service/repair folks, you name it. Rather money goes to increase salary of top officials/corporate bureaucracy.
It would be interesting to compare two charts: fee increase by AT&T and salary /bonuses of its top bureaucracy. FTC could find similarity – just educated guess.

JonKnowsNothing • November 27, 2023 7:49 PM

@vas pup, All

re: US Congressional and Senate Oversight Committees

There is a fundamental problem with having members of the oversight committees doing actual oversight activities.

1) They are outnumbered on the committee, and have been outnumbered over the many years that these committees have been active in one way or another. Investigative actions are curtailed in favor of Supportive actions.

  • What Lola wants…

2) The committee members have seniority ranks, years of service, and security clearance levels. The higher your security clearance level the less you can speak about actions within the committee or presented to the committee.

  • The more you know, the less you can do…

3) Members of the committee are elected to the House and Senate, like any other member of Congress. That means every 2yrs or every 6yrs you have be re-elected. Every cycle you have to earn the right to be on any committee.

  • Here today, gone tomorrow

4) The LEAs have ultimate control because they direct the discourse and public discourse of the committee. The “public” committee hearings are not spontaneous Q&A; each member submits a list of questions weeks in advance so the LEAs can craft their response or non-response. The LEAs are supposed to respond in writing to committee member requests but that can take a long long time.

  • We can neither confirm nor deny (1)

===

ht tps://en.wikiped ia .o rg/wiki/Glomar_response

  • In United States law, the term Glomar response, also known as Glomarization or Glomar denial, refers to a response to a request for information that will “neither confirm nor deny” (NCND) the existence of the information sought.
  • We can neither confirm nor deny the existence of the information requested but, hypothetically, if such data were to exist, the subject matter would be classified, and could not be disclosed.

Jon • November 27, 2023 10:58 PM

@ Clive Robinson, et. al.

Of course, simply ‘outsourcing’ a criminal activity should come with at least, possibly more, punishment than simply doing so yourself. Hiring a hit man doth not absolve one of murder…

Should. Whether it will or not is always a good question, and as pointed out, these people have to be re-elected. Anyone who comes down hard on a TLA (Three Letter Agency) might find all sorts of interesting dirt dug up upon them – and used in a competing campaign (doesn’t even have to be true dirt).

J.

PaulBart • November 28, 2023 7:52 AM

@spiderplebe So as to help.

“West to authoritarian right-wing and Strong-Men politicians” @Clive

See this comment right here. Do you have any idea how many on this board want more government action, more state involvement, more government largess, more public employees, more state. The same state that is spying on them. And then they have the brazenness to assert “authoritarian right-wing” mantra. How old is Wikileaks now? Hillary is right-wing, with missing email server. Biden is right-wing, with that fabulous laptop that was “Russian” misinformation?
This same glorious authors with their clear comments would call USSR, far-right.

You want less of this, cut federal employment by half, cut federal spending by 2/3, gut the state.

No,no. Having healthcare provided by saintly state bureaucrats is the way to go.

Winter • November 28, 2023 8:42 AM

@PaulBart

And then they have the brazenness to assert “authoritarian right-wing” mantra.

Who is Authoritarian?

Have a look at Wikipedia:
‘https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarianism

Authoritarianism is a political system characterized by a controlling government and the rejection of democracy, human rights, and political plurality. It involves the use of strong central power to preserve the political status quo, and reductions in the rule of law, separation of powers, and democratic voting.

Now, look at current world leaders. Who fit the bill on:
the rejection of democracy, human rights, and political plurality and reductions in the rule of law, separation of powers, and democratic voting.

  • Putin, Xi, Erdohan, Kim? Looks like they fit.
  • Hilary Clinton, Joe Biden? Not a fit on any of these.
  • The Donald? He rejected the rule of law, separation of powers and the votes in 2016 [1] and 2020. Also, it is Trump et al. that attack human rights [2].

What is Right Wing Extremism?

We all agree that Neo-Nazi’s and the Ku-Klux-Klan are at the extreme right of even the US political spectrum. So, Whom do these Neo-nazi’s and Ku-Klux-Klan members support? Biden or Hillary? No way. Trump? In droves. So, the Extreme Right agrees that Trump is their man, not Biden or Clinton.

[1] Even though Trump won, he claimed the voting was rigged:
‘https://www.factcheck.org/2016/10/trumps-bogus-voter-fraud-claims/

[2] ‘https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelposner/2020/07/17/how-a-trump-pompeo-commission-gets-human-rights-all-wrong/

Clive Robinson • November 28, 2023 9:32 AM

Re: If you are going to quote, ensure you bring the context.

You have sniped,

‘“West to authoritarian right-wing and Strong-Men politicians” @Clive’

From,

“How we stop something like this requires draconian measures which with current drifting in the West to authoritarian right-wing and Strong-Men politicians is not something that is going to happen till Hell has chiled below absolute zero. Or after another World War and all the atrocities that warrantless surveillance will unleash.”

Then you have gone on to imply it fits some drum banging narative of yours, not the context it was given in.

Just think what fun I could have doing what you have done to you…

But let me not snip as you have, but take you in your context,

“Do you have any idea how many on this board want more government action, more state involvement, more government largess, more public employees, more state.”

It kind of comes built in with the Republic ethos and,

“Government of the people, by the people, for the people.”

Which Abe Lincoln put forth.

That is it is about “society” and all those in it agreeing to be bound by the decisions of “society” in which “society” participates.

Or,

“Ruuning of society, by society, for society.”

When we consider,

“Individual Rights v. Societal Responsabilities”

It is about “Societal Responsabilitie”, your argument however goes on with,

“The same state that is spying on them.”

Which is actually about “Individual” entities unlawfully imposing what they see as their “Rights” over society.

The problem as I indicated is that Jeremy Bentham is right when it comes to unlawful behaviour. If they do not respect society which is what you are saying then they are behaving in a way that requires as I noted

“Without suitable pursuit and punishment there is no stay on unlawful behaviour.”

So should their unlawful “individual rights” they are forcing on society be alowed by “society”?

I think not, and others here clearly think not, including it appears you.

Winter • November 28, 2023 12:14 PM

@PaulBart

Having healthcare provided by saintly state bureaucrats is the way to go.

Not having any healthcare because private plans are too expensive or capped is generally much worse, see the USA.

Also, having decreasing life expectancies due to despair [1] in a “free” market economy is also rather bad. Especially if your country is the only developed country experiencing it.

[1] See Discussion here:
‘https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2023/11/using-generative-ai-for-surveillance.html/#comment-429084

Erdem Memisyazici • November 28, 2023 4:04 PM

So a whole bunch of angry British people 300ish years ago said the following, “Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.”

They scratched their heads and added, “and their military forces have to be months away by sea. Err don’t write that down.”

15 years later they were sitting around and thinking again and said okay and another thing, “The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. So don’t go looking through my personal stuff fishing for wrongdoings, it’s annoying and stop it!” Then mentioned, “leave that last sentence out.”

vas pup • November 28, 2023 5:01 PM

@JonKnlightowsNothing – so no light at the end of tunnel to restrict AT&T at least by Congress based on your comment? Deep state and AT&T are inseparable. Very bad prospective for common folks.

JonKnowsNothing • November 28, 2023 7:47 PM

@vas pup, @Clive All

re: so no light at the end of tunnel to restrict LEAs

No. There isn’t going to be any change(s).

However, I do not follow the rabbit down the Deep State Hole because all the players are alive, right now, real time.

The players in this game are people like you, me and people reading this blog. They are not invisible and they are not omniscient. They do pretend to be both.

They trade on self-interest, self-aggrandizement, self-centered views that some how they are better than the rest of the unwashed masses. They do like to gloat about what they can do and what they have done.

The rest of us, lumped into the unwashed masses group, also have a strong tendency to Go With The Program and accept any and all statements, justifications, obfuscations as if these are “good things”.

@Clive has many posts about Individual v Group think and the different goals for each.

The people running the show in the USA, and every country in the world, all share a similar mind-set. It does not matter which country, which economy, which language, they have the same make up.

The individual problem is knowing they are the ones with guns, weapons, material, and they are the ones who can end your life without a moment of remorse or regret, now or for their entire lifetime.

We do like a bit of schadenfreude on the side when something burps, but don’t expect much to come your way.

So, what can a single individual do?

  • Discount everything anyone in official capacity tells you is true. Just go with it is 100% falsified. It will make the acceptance a bit easier.

Their primary hook, is to convince everyone that they are All Mighty and All Powerful. This is true. But they are Never Ever Correct In What They Say.

Here are some recent examples of Power Talking. ymmv and HAIL is suspected

===

ht tps://www.theguardia n.com/us-news/2023/nov/28/hospital-organ-donation-death-lawsuit-fresno-california

  • When are you dead? Who gets your organs?

ht tps://www.theguardia n.com/world/2023/nov/23/elon-musk-decries-strikes-as-swedish-workers-take-on-tesla

ht tps://www.theguardia n.com/technology/2023/nov/27/tesla-suing-swedens-transport-agency-in-escalation-of-strike-row-licence-plates

  • What right do you have to Challenge Corporate Structures? Who do you think you are? I am ELON MUSK and say what you get, when you get it and how you get it. GOT THAT?

ht tps://www.theguardia n.com/australia-news/2023/nov/27/war-crimes-whistleblower-david-mcbride-reveals-why-he-went-to-the-media

  • You think anyone will listen to YOU? hahahahahahahaha…

Clive Robinson • November 29, 2023 3:49 AM

@ JonKnowsNothing,

Re : The Guardian article.

“The rest of us, lumped into the unwashed masses group, also have a strong tendency to Go With The Program and accept any and all statements, justifications, obfuscations as if these are “good things”

It is that “Go With The Program” that is why “Might is Right” and “The King Game” prosper and vast wealth of treasure, not just coin, but love, life, and trust, get stolen away from us and the theft hidden behind words to make people appear guilty of some immagined crime so might can steam roller and prosper via thr,

“All nails should be hammered down”

Doctrine of “Might is Right”.

The “ethicists” play a rigged game with the “Trolly Conundrum” and portray it as for “The Greater Good” question with only two choices. Well as I argue straight back,

“It’s ‘a rigged question’ as there is always more than two choices.”

The obvious third is “Wait” or “Do no harm” in effect “take no action”, “refuse to be involved”, or “assume no responsibility”, in short “look away and go with the flow”.

In effect the real question the “ethicists” demonstrate when asking the “Trolly Conundrum” is,

“Will you be brow beaten by self appointed authority?”

That is,

“Are you meek and compliant and easily oppressed, or are you prepared to take the beating they will hand out to you one way or another?”

Because that’s what the “Trolly Conundrum” question realy is a “Do as I say” threat ill thought up and used to push a view.

As you note I pose things on a spectrum,

“Individual Rights v. Social Responsability”

Part of that is always two sub questions,

1, Who wins, or Who losses?
2, Where is the Profit motive?

The law when laid bare is about two things, that get amalgamated

1, Property
2, Harm

With legislation / regulation trying to set the mark and restitution if deemed appropriate.

Thus the question naturally arises,

“Who owns you, and how much harm can they do you?”

With,

“What restitution are you allowed?”

Making it an obviously “rigged game” and getting back to the psycopathic “Might is Right” backed by the narcissism of those who are directly responsible for the legislation / regulation of “The King Game” but are usually just marionettes for those of Machiavellian failings who see themselves as those who pull the strings. At the end of the day sadly the profit sort is,

“The power of control”

More often an “evil” than a “good” alowing others to do further “evil”.

All of which can be seen in The Guardian story.

It brought to mind a very old joke,

At an international conferance on economics, in a social event two economists were arguing vehemently about if capitalism or communisum was right. It had got to the naked point of accusations, with the American saying loudly,

“Communism is nothing but theft and oppression you take property that is not yours and your leaders persecute those who disagree!”

With the Russian retorting,

“Pha it’s Capitalism that is theft and oppression, you steal from the labour of the people and use banks to persecute them further!”

An old man of slight staure and horn rimed glasses, who had been watching quietly, finally broke his silence,

“Gentlemen gentleman, please it is clear that the both of you are arguing about the same thing.

Stunned by the unexpected interjection both the American and Russian looked at him as though a mouse had dared to speak. The American said “What?” and after but a moments pause the Russian said “No not possible!”. The old man looked from one to the other and seeing their looks of disbelief and consternation said to the Russian

“Communism claims to love the people, and Capitalism claims to love profit, Yes?”

Both the American and Russian involuntarily nod in agrement, so the old man goes on,

“Gentleman do you not see that you both agree?”

The blank looks told him no, so he said,

“Gentlemen you both take what you profess to love the most and then you lock it up.”

With that he turned and walked away sadly shaking his head.

The change we see to day is that now the Americans also see people as property to be bought and sold in part or whole by use of lies and poverty, whilst the Russians also see people should be bought and sold in part or whole by use of lies and poverty…

As was once observed,

“The more things change, the more they stay the same.”

All that changes are the lies, and the evil of the hidden hand that moves the mark on the scale of,

“Individual Rights v. Social Responsability”

For “The power of control”, which hierarchical systems give them in abundance, by the use of “Authoritarian followers” as “Guard Labour”.

If people do not want to be “Sold in part or whole” then they need to take “Responsability” and be the public hand that moves the mark on the scale.

At the end of the day society is what people make it, good or bad. However if the people are content not to say “No for their own good” then evil will prosper and the people will find “Evil push bad upon them”. Thus they will be harmed as their “Individual Rights” get stolen away by their inattention and lack of taking “Social Responsability”.

There is an observation –from Ralph Nader if memory serves correctly,– that all people need to consider,

“The only difference between a democrate and a republican, is when the money man comes calling, the speed and excuses they use to fall on their knees in supplication.”

Is it “Time for change?” I think so.

JonKnowsNothing • November 29, 2023 8:21 AM

@Clive, All

!Clive An excellent summary of the problem with Power Talking.

Today’s example of Power Talking and why you should discount 100% what is said officially, since it’s easier to start with 100% False and move up the scale until, or if, you can find any truth at all.

The Case of Daniel Duggan and AU Citizen being held in AU at the request of the USA pending extradition to USA is full of Power Talking points.

In this particular incident a AU Federal Officer gave false testimony and false documentation to the AU Court. The AU-USA effort was to block the sale of a property solely owned by the spouse and to seize the property to prevent the sale. The proceeds of the sale would help fund Duggan’s legal defense. It is not cheap to fight such powerful agencies and to refute claims made that are “taken as truth” because the agencies said so.

  • The AFP officer Simon Moore appeared before the NSW supreme court on Wednesday, where he was asked to explain why he had provided it with an affidavit in which he incorrectly named Duggan as the director of the company which owns the property.
  • The AFP did not notify the court of the error in Moore’s affidavit until after it received a letter from Duggan’s lawyers
  • [The AFP officer] said he had made an “error” and that he regretted it had occurred

Rhetorical Question:

  • Do you really think the AFP Officer regretted submitting false information, false documentation, false affidavits, and false testimony?

Nope me neither.

One of the biggest problems with Power Talking, is that they have banks of PhD Psychologists to craft their messages. These are very clever folks who know all about logic errors, logic fallacies and logic puzzles, and how to mix the trolley car problem along with many other logic problems into a statement that seems just fine.

It is not just fine.

Here is an example from ~2014. See if you can find the flaws. Nearly nothing in this statement is true but you will hear it or a variation every time “oversight” is proposed.

If we halt what we are doing and there is another disaster like 9/11 (or even bigger than 9/11) and that disaster could have been stopped had we kept those programs, are you willing take responsibility for all the deaths and all the destruction.

Are you willing to put your name on the order that said “stop”?

General Michael Hayden ~2014

Hint: It is not a question.

===

h ttps://www.theguardi an. c om/australia-news/2023/nov/29/daniel-duggan-australian-federal-police-agent-incorrect-evidence-regret

  • Daniel Duggan AU Citizen being held at request of USA in a high security prison

  • Extradition case in progress

  • federal agent ‘regrets’ incorrect evidence in ex-US military pilot case

ht tps://en.wikipedi a . or g/wiki/List_of_fallacies

Clive Robinson • November 29, 2023 9:28 AM

@ JonKnowsNothing,

When it comes to Ex-General Michael Hayden I look not for squirrels in the head, but weasels at the ankles.

Even though he has had a stroke and has “word blindness” aphasia and gets words like yes and no turned around you would be a fool to think the mind inside is not as sharp as it used to be.

‘https://www.npr.org/2021/08/11/1026831053/i-want-to-do-more-gen-michael-hayden-on-living-with-speech-inhibiting-aphasia

Infact it’s probably sharper due to having to excercise the mind to overcome the effects of the stroke.

His statment you give from before his stroke has the tenses muddled to the point it makes me look deeper.

I won’t spoil the fun of others trying to work out what he was upto, but as was once said,

“Sonney, sometimes snakes don’t hiss, they rattle and afore you know it they’ve struck.”

bl5q sw5N • November 29, 2023 1:07 PM

@ Clive Robinson

Thus they will be harmed as their “Individual Rights” get stolen away by their inattention and lack of taking “Social Responsability”.

This is so true – rights that are not exercised are lost.

It also indicates that there can be no opposition

Individual Rights v. Social Responsability

The one human nature gives rise to both, since the human is individual and social.

Logically prior to “rights” are “responsibilities”. The human nature is a good, and therefore imposes a responsibility to protect it. This imperative confers, and limits, the rights, both in the private and common spheres.

bl5q sw5N • November 29, 2023 1:28 PM

@ Clive Robinson

It brought to mind a very old joke,

A quote from Aurel Kolnai that seems apposite:

“What is really wrong with “Pluto-democracy” is not “plutocracy” but “democracy” (in the “self-made man” and worse, the “common man” sense of it, which latter develops out of the former degeneratively but logically); or to put it differently, the disease of “capitalism” can the less be cured by the poison of Socialism as it is really only a disease in the sense that it prefigures, and carries a diluted foretaste of, Socialism.”

Privilege and Liberty (1949)

Winter • November 29, 2023 1:36 PM

Re: American healthcare

Above there were some comments about the “value” of American versus Comprehensive healthcare systems. I was curious why the American system is so horribly expensive [1]. So expensive that it is one of the main factors in the decreased disposable income of those without a college BA and fueled the despair epidemic in the US.

Reading about it, I came across Prof. Reinhardt who pointed out the ~30% bureaucratic waste in US healthcare. He also pointed out the curious views of economists on waste in healthcare, called the Vertical-Horizontal paradox.

https://archive.nytimes.com/economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/09/13/waste-vs-value-in-american-health-care/

Thus speak economists [about unprofitable interventions] when they are in a vertical position and healthy.

From personal experience, however, I extrapolate that, once in a horizontal position on the operating table or in an imaging machine, most economists, like most other patients, are much more tolerant of moving along segment CA all the way up to point A, especially when they are well insured. Physicians diagnose this as the “V.H.P.C. syndrome” (for verticalis-horizontalis paradoxum cerebralis), said to afflict especially economists and management consultants, but also many politicians.

Really, the article is an interesting read, especially for those who have to pay the premiums in the US.

[1] Healthcare in the Netherlands is ranked as one of the best in the world. Premiums for our universal coverage (commercial) insurance with full coverage is ~150 euro per adult per month. Children below 18 are insured without cost. People I know in the US are insured by their employer for ten times that premium.

Winter • November 29, 2023 1:49 PM

@bl5q sw5N

the disease of “capitalism” can the less be cured by the poison of Socialism as it is really only a disease in the sense that it prefigures, and carries a diluted foretaste of, Socialism.”

These quotes start from the assumption that the only alternative to the USA style of Plutocracy is Stalinism or Maoism. In reality, in between these two (geographically and ideologically) there lived quite a number of people who were better off than both the people in the US and the USSR.

bl5q sw5N • November 29, 2023 2:56 PM

@ Winter

These quotes start from the assumption

Kolanai always argues from the ethical and political principles that follow from human nature. I have never seen in his writings assumptions of any kind. He is a philosopher.

In his writings he shows himself to be aware of the broad range of ideological and political mixed regimes and approaches. He could be called a “conservative”, about which he says

“Conservatism means, above all else, a resolve to see what is good in the status quo, and to keep, protect, cherish and reinforce this stock of value.”

JonKnowsNothing • November 29, 2023 2:59 PM

@Clive, All

re: “Sonney, sometimes snakes don’t hiss, they rattle and afore you know it they’ve struck.”

There was a very funny routine done about rattlesnakes by a Cajun Comic (1). It goes much better in Cajun.

paraphrased

A Cajun goes visit a friend in West Texas and they decide to go hunting. The host warns the visitor that there are rattlesnakes about.

The visitor is alarmed by the prospect of getting bit and goes through a list of what happens if he gets bit on the arm, on the leg.

His friend assures him that his snake bite kit will take care of any bites.

Then he asks “What if I bend down and get bit on the behind?”

His friend says…

“Well that’s when you find out just who your friend be…”

With the global LEAs and 3Ls, ain’t nobody gonna be that much of a friend. They might toss you in a viper pit, but hauling you out of one is different story.

===

1)

Cajun Humor Fest
Cajun Kings of Comedy 2002

Murray Conque
Dave Petitjean
A. J. Smith

note: AI HAIL DDG-Fu search assistance seems to be stuck in 2022-2023.

Winter • November 29, 2023 3:23 PM

@bl5q sw5N

“Conservatism means, above all else, a resolve to see what is good in the status quo, and to keep, protect, cherish and reinforce this stock of value.”

Conservatives vehemently tried to keep slavery and deny women an education and voting rights. Even today, there are many conservatives that support domestic violence.

bl5q sw5N • November 29, 2023 4:40 PM

@ Winter

Conservatives vehemently tried

Those don’t meet the very reasonable definition Kolnai gives.

Those people are some other species of political animal, perhaps reactionaries. They don’t seem to “conserve what is good”, rather they keep what is bad.

But, one should be aware that the left uses rhetoric to make it appear that there is no good sense of “conservative”, since their basic position is the good is only obtained by revolution, and they frequently strive to polarize discussion so as make their position seem the only one acceptable.

So the misuse of the term “conservative” may be deliberate.

Clive Robinson • November 29, 2023 5:56 PM

@ bl5q sw5N,

“The one human nature gives rise to both, since the human is individual and social.”

Err no.

Only about 60% of humans are both.

Autism is in effect the utimate individualism of “live in only your head” and at the other end narcissism where they “force themselves into your head” any way they can.

As a society we only tend to notice the latter, and it’s why sociologists “Hawks and Doves” model is so wrong but appears as a first aproximation to be valid.

Arguably society will survive without the presence of “Hawks” but it will not survive the loss of “Auts” who form the artisans, engineers and scientists that move society forward by use of ever more efficient and inventive technology.

bl5q sw5N • November 29, 2023 6:02 PM

@ Winter

Re: name repurposing

And reactionaries may like to call themselves “conservative” because it sounds more respectable.

Clive Robinson • November 29, 2023 6:38 PM

bl5q sw5N, Winter,

“Conservatism means, above all else, a resolve to see what is good in the status quo, and to keep, protect, cherish and reinforce this stock of value.”

Again No.

Firstly conservatives with a little “c” actually live in the past and want to go back to what they see as “the glories of the past”.

They are in effect the historical tail of society that like a boats “sea anchor” they want to pull the ship of society back to some thing they think will at the very least give them certainty.

They are in some cases mortally afraid of the uncertainty of the future, like those scared they will “sail of the edge of the world”. Whilst others delude themselves that in their fantasy past they would have had status, respect and power to be a King Maker or some such nonsense.

Neither is a sane state to be in.

There is no “good in the status quo” it is the tipping point of sociopathy the true meaning of which is “death of association (society)” and is the antithesis of sociogenesis (birth and development).

Conservatives who fear uncertainty are all to easy to manipulate and many are the “authoritarian followers” that I’ve mentioned from time to time on this blog. They either fall to their knees to bless a “strong-man” or sign up as the guard labour to both promot the perceived strong-man or worse much worse try to be a strong-man but lack the ability to be anything other than an ineffectual or delusional bully.

If the news is correct such a person as the latter was recently stabed in prison. Unless the prison authorities take significant steps to protect him as the weak-man he actualy is, it’s doubtfull he will live to see freedom.

bl5q sw5N • November 29, 2023 6:44 PM

@ Clive Robinson

Only about 60% of humans are both.

There are degrees and variations of characteristics physical, intellectual, psychological etc. among individuals, but we are all of the same essential human nature.

Clive Robinson • November 29, 2023 7:03 PM

@ bl5q sw5N,

“but we are all of the same essential human nature.”

And we share the same DNA as an oak tree, fish, or dysenteric amoeba[1]…

Your propositian is an inanity like arguing a bolt and a nail are of “the same essential” nature because they both contain iron. Well so do girders and trusses, ships hulls and many vehicles. Are they the same essential nature?

Tell me when did you last ride a nail to work or use a car to fix up a timber frame in a house roof?

[1] Which is why the writer Doglas Adams used it as an inane juxtaposition to elicit humour. It is silly, it sounds silly and it outs pomposity.

Clive Robinson • November 29, 2023 7:15 PM

@ JonKnowsNothing,

““Well that’s when you find out just who your friend be…””

Reminds me of another old joke about the father advising his son about what to do if a lion comes at him in the jungle. The father advises picking up some poo and flinging it in the lions eyes. The son is skeptical and says why would there be poo on the ground. To which the father replies “Don’t worry son there will be, yes indeedy there certainly will be…”

In both jokes it sounds like the voice of experience which is what makes the punch line 😉

bl5q sw5N • November 29, 2023 7:53 PM

@ Clive Robinson

arguing a bolt and a nail are of “the same essential” nature because they both contain iron. Well so do girders and trusses, ships hulls and many vehicles. Are they the same essential nature?

They are. The underlying iron is what is given by nature, the various forms nail, bolt, etc. are accidental to the nature, given by artifice for artificial ends, different of course. No matter how by art you act on it, it is still just iron and behaves as iron. E.g., If you plant a wooden bed or a chair, and it were such that it grew, you would get woody plants, not budding chairs and beds.

But the DNA examples are different. Each life form gives if reduced the same chemicals, but the living forms are by nature and not just artifact assemblies, and are radically different.

Jeff E • November 29, 2023 8:59 PM

And obviously the gathered data would be fed to an AI so that it can draw conclusions about the populace

Not really anonymous • November 29, 2023 9:46 PM

Regarding the Trolley Problem, I don’t think it is OK to kill specific innocent people to save other people, even if more people are saved than killed.

Von • November 29, 2023 10:13 PM

To attempt to draw together some of the disparate comments in this thread I offer the following:

  1. 3 letter agencies have to perpetuate their raison d’etre or expand it. The comment above seemed to be mainly directed at intelligence agencies, and I agree, but would also add that others such as the DEA employ similar tactics. The DEA has obviously completely failed in the “war on drugs” so to put something in their win column they have started going after physicians and pharmacies. First there was the opioid crisis. The popular narrative of which is virtually completely false. Be that as it may, the 2016 opioid guidelines were used as a cudgel to threaten the licenses of medical professionals. Suddenly the “guidelines” were being treated as laws and chronic pain patients were left with care which could rightly be described as torture. The new guidelines are not nearly as draconian and some states have made it illegal for pharmacists to refuse to fill a legitimate pain prescription. With less power to wield over opioids the DEA has now gone after benzodiazepines and stimulants like Adderall. An agency with absolutely no knowledge of medicine or notion of patient care consistently attempts to shore up is horrible reputation by depriving legitimate patients the medications they need.
  2. The ATF also attempts to expand it’s purview by rule making and creating laws that have not been legislated. I’m not advocating for or against increased firearms regulation, I’m simply pointing out that the agency keeps trying to restrict things like pistol braces and the courts keep throwing out or providing injunctive relief during the years of litigation. Despite the hundreds of laws that exist to control firearms the ATF has failed miserably in its mission to keep guns out of criminal hands. In yesterday’s JAMA pediatrics a paper was published that showed in mass school shootings low and medium powered weapons (handguns) were far more commonly used than high power (rifle) weapons. While what we think of as a mass shooting (Parkland) make headlines over numerous news cycles the majority of events that qualify as mass shootings don’t get that kind of coverage. The paper further pointed out the oft overlooked role of parents in these events as the largest source of firearms was theft most often from parents.
  3. Though not a TLA the American healthcare system operates in much the same way. Since the advent of managed care layer upon layer of administration has been added to the system funneling dollar upon dollar away from patient care.

Additionally, the US healthcare system in many ways subsidizes the care of the rest of the world. Pharmaceutical companies have been historically able to set prices in the USA. Those prices are set to make up for the loss of revenue in markets where the governments say they will pay an amount solely of the governments choosing.

These opinions are solely my own. I welcome replies but am deathly tired of snark. No offense offered so please return the favor.

JonKnowsNothing • November 29, 2023 10:58 PM

@Clive, All

re: Logic Fallacy Puzzle

If we halt what we are doing and there is another disaster like 9/11 (or even bigger than 9/11) and that disaster could have been stopped had we kept those programs, are you willing take responsibility for all the deaths and all the destruction.

Are you willing to put your name on the order that said “stop”?

General Michael Hayden ~2014

Here are some more hints:

  • It is not a question
  • Nothing in this statement is true
  • Nothing in this statement contains information or intelligence

At the time this statement was issued there were a number of analysis of the internals and structure of it. HAIL AI Search seems to be stuck in 2022-2023 so finding these detailed explanations might be difficult.

iirc(badly)

There are 6-12 logic flaws, logic fallacies, logic errors along with emotional nudge tags.

In order to unravel the puzzle, a good starting place is with Loaded Question.

Once you can spot the Loaded Question, parse out the statement and review each segment to identify the Logic Fallacy Puzzle in that section.

eg: disaster could have been stopped

  • Can a disaster be stopped? Can you stop a Hurricane? Tornado? Landslide? Earthquake?

  • What is a disaster? What is the implied disaster in the sentence? Is the implied disaster stoppable? If it is stoppable it is still a disaster?

  • Is the use of COULD HAVE the same as WILL BE? Is there a subtle implication that the disaster would not be stopped anyway?

Each of these aspects is it’s own Logic Error Puzzle. The puzzle builds on our imagined presumptions of events, preys on our emotional nudge points which directly impacts on how we respond.

  • We respond exactly as General Hayden intended

Perhaps someone with better DDG-fu can find one of the detailed analysis. It would be a great Business Case or Ethics Case Example.

===

ht tps://en.wikipedia. o r g/wiki/Loaded_question

  • A loaded question is a form of complex question that contains a controversial assumption (e.g., a presumption of guilt).

  • Such questions may be used as a rhetorical tool: the question attempts to limit direct replies to be those that serve the questioner’s agenda.[2] The traditional example is the question “Have you stopped beating your wife?” Whether the respondent answers yes or no, they will admit to having beaten their wife at some time in the past.

  • facts are presupposed by the question, and in this case an entrapment, because it narrows the respondent to a single answer, and the fallacy of many questions has been committed

  • The fallacy relies upon context for its effect: the fact that a question presupposes something does not in itself make the question fallacious.

h ttps://en.wikipedi a.org /wiki/Fallacy_of_many_questions

  • A complex question, trick question, multiple question, fallacy of presupposition, or plurium interrogationum (Latin, ‘of many questions’) is a question that has a complex presupposition.
  • The presupposition is a proposition that is presumed to be acceptable to the respondent when the question is asked. The respondent becomes committed to this proposition when they give any direct answer. When a presupposition includes an admission of wrongdoing, it is called a “loaded question” and is a form of entrapment in legal trials or debates.

bl5q sw5N • November 29, 2023 11:06 PM

@ Clive Robinson

They are in effect the historical tail of society that like a boats “sea anchor” they want to pull the ship of society back to some thing they think will at the very least give them certainty.

Again, a reactionary utopianism is being described.

There is no “good in the status quo”

Typically there is something good.

Kolnai –

Quite apart from the folly of a crass refusal of timely “concessions,” a conservative system ought always to be introducing careful reforms not only to meet the various demands of justice but also to attain the goal of “conservation” itself. For reality involves continual spontaneous changes and gives scope for deforming tendencies, which in their turn give rise to the danger of breach of continuity; whosoever “lets things go” and avoids reformatory interference, fails to conserve the stock of value, but rather exposes it to atrophy and loss of substance.

Winter • November 30, 2023 1:18 AM

@ bl5q sw5N • November 29, 2023 4:40 PM

Those don’t meet the very reasonable definition Kolnai gives.

You distinguish between Real and Pretend Conservatives (No True Conservative). But everyone who is not conservative is a Stalinist.

Anyhow, Conservatives have opposed each and every improvement in society. What True Conservative supported voting rights and University Education for women? What True Conservative supported Civil Rights? Or for that matter, supported the abolition of slavery?

Winter • November 30, 2023 2:06 AM

@bl5q sw5N

Quite apart from the folly of a crass refusal of timely “concessions,” …

Do you live up to that standard?

I totally agree with a fear of “social engineering”. Karl Popper already wrote books about its dangers. But “Conservatives” that are as considerate and compassionate as Kolnai describes are a really rare species in the USA and elsewhere.

I think a good litmus test is US health care insurance system. There is nothing “good” in this system. It is expensive and wasteful and does a disservice to most.

But where are the Conservatives who want to make it a better service to everyone [1]?

[1] I read a number of studies where it is recounted that the main, unspoken, reason Americans were against universal health coverage was that white voters did not want to pay for health costs of black people.
See:
‘https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/10.1146/annurev-economics-051520-015607#

Indeed, McCarthy (2017) argues that the unwillingness of whites to finance health care for Blacks was an important reason that the United States, unlike other rich countries, did not build a national health system after World War II.

Clive Robinson • November 30, 2023 3:30 AM

@ Not really anonymous,

“I don’t think it is OK to kill specific innocent people to save other people, even if more people are saved than killed.”

The technical term for doing so is “Triage” and as resources are by definition finite in a bound world an inevitability. So hardly surprising then that the medical proffession has some of the highest rates of direct and indirect suicide and fatal accidents. Generaly considered to be strong indicators of depressive illness, and why so many have left the proffession.

Doctors with dark humour refere to certain types of politicians as “Vertically / Horizontaly Ethicaly Challenged”(V/HEC). That is when well and upright politicians dictate and inflict on the masses things that are unconscionable at best, but when ill thus horizontal the same politicians demand only the best as their inate right as “Strong-men leaders championing the masses”.

bl5q sw5N • November 30, 2023 4:05 AM

@ Winter

I think a good litmus test is US health care insurance system.

Probably it has something to do with love of mammon, as even de Tocqueville noticed as a potentially fatal American characteristic.

But a question.

You say national health plans in other countries, especially Netherlands, are completely funded with reasonable taxes and serve well.

Do any of these plans escape the bureaucratic limits of efficient health care spending ?

I know Canada’s system for example denies treatment if it falls outside resource use efficiency guidelines.

It’s one thing for a doctor to say only heroic measures remain, but quite another for bureaucracy to impose statistically based restrictions.

If this non-medical bureaucratic interference can be avoided, and affordable insurance funding is possible, then the main thing to convince Americans of would be that healthcare is a common good issue and therefore tax funding of insurance is not in defiance of liberty.

Winter • November 30, 2023 5:02 AM

@bl5q sw5N

You say national health plans in other countries, especially Netherlands, are completely funded with reasonable taxes and serve well.

Moderation cue intervened.

Most info can be found in the corresponding Wikipedia page:
‘https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_the_Netherlands#Insurance

The Netherlands has a dual-level system. All primary and curative care (i.e. the family doctor service and hospitals and clinics) is financed from private mandatory insurance. Long term care for the elderly, the dying, the long term mentally ill etc. is covered by social insurance funded from earmarked taxation under the provisions of the Algemene Wet Bijzondere Ziektekosten, which came into effect in 1968.

(there is much more there)

Winter • November 30, 2023 5:04 AM

@bl5q sw5N

Do any of these plans escape the bureaucratic limits of efficient health care spending ?

Health care costs make up ~11% of GDP. Bureaucratic waste is well below the level of the USA (a very low bar to reach).

An analysis of the inclusion of new treatments of dubious cost-effectiveness is given here:
‘https://bmchealthservres.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12913-022-08690-z

Winter • November 30, 2023 7:06 AM

@bl5q sw5N

Do any of these plans escape the bureaucratic limits of efficient health care spending ?

A view from the UK/NHS.

‘https://logex.com/lessons-nhs-cfos-learned-about-the-dutch-healthcare-system-during-the-hfma-logex-study-trip/

And from a US citizen

‘https://dutchreview.com/expat/ways-dutch-and-us-healthcare-are-different/

JonKnowsNothing • November 30, 2023 7:35 AM

@Winter, @ bl5q sw5N

re: But everyone who is not conservative is a Stalinist

I play PVP online games and a current game taunt is

  • You’re a Democrat!

Perhaps it’s some subliminal connection to the use of Red and Blue target markers?

JonKnowsNothing • November 30, 2023 8:09 AM

@Winter, @Clive, @bl5q sw5N, All

re: Health care costs for pets…

While most articles on health care focus on humans, the cost of veterinary care has also skyrocketed. Vets have access to all the same tests, machinery, and pharmacy options as humans, although the pharmacy part is pet centric (guinea pigs v cows). They charge proportional to human treatment. It can cost thousands of dollars for a simple treatment.

Recently a journalist wrote up a story about the extreme cost of having a pet treated. Then got an excoriating backlash from the veterinary professional organizations (How Dare You Complain About Costs!). The journalist wrote up a follow up on the topic.

It’s both humorous and insightful as to how the system works.

USA – A small upsell that yields a large profit is done by PCP/GP MDs during an annual physical exam.

Many insurance companies offer a “free physical exam” yearly and for Medicare Senior Advantage Program, it’s one of the mandated medical visits that the health insurance company has to do to get their annual capitation fee. The capitation fee is a lump sum payment to the health insurer. Consider it a proof-of-life payment if they get you to the physical exam.

Different billing codes are used for each aspect of the exam. At some point the MD will ask you.

  • Do you mind if I ask you about your mood? (or similar)
  • OK, sure, go ahead, you might reply.

The MD then asks about 5-10 questions from a pre-canned list of mental health questions. The MD may make notes (or not) about your answers.

You might think that the MD is showing care and concern for how your mood is, what kind of stressors you face, what difficulties you have in life, living, caring for yourself.

Nope, not at all.

The billing code for those questions given during a physical exam is big dollar add-on to the bill. Those 5-10 questions are promoted as a means to pad the bill and has very little to do with any issues you might face.

A Classic Answer

  • MD – I prescribe general medications. I do not do Social Services.

===

ht tps://www.theguardian.c om/commentisfree/2023/nov/15/what-have-i-learned-after-three-years-of-dog-ownership-never-trust-a-vet

  • What have I learned after three years of dog ownership? Beware of the vet bills

  • Attempts to upsell me on treatments for my little lad include medicines, supplements and even post-castration minerals. It’s MBA-level marketing zealotry

ht tps://www.theguardian.c om/commentisfree/2023/nov/29/vets-you-deserve-my-apologies-adrian-chiles

  • Vets, you deserve my apologies
  • In my previous column, I accused veterinarians of ‘upselling’ remedies for profit, and I am sorry. Vets are lovely – but their corporate employers, not so much

Winter • November 30, 2023 8:30 AM

@JonKnowsNothing

You’re a Democrat!

I am a staunch believer in Democracy, but that does not make me a (USA) Democrat. I am more Bernie Sanders. But probably somewhat to the left of him.

I do not know what a Republican in the US is nowadays. As far as I know they have no principles and no morals they adhere to.

Winter • November 30, 2023 8:39 AM

@JonKnowsNothing

re: Health care costs for pets…

I know this sounds harsh, but pets do not live as long as humans and they do not understand the reason for treatment. For a pet, a visit to the Vet is pure torture. [1] Before you subject a pet to treatment you should consider whether the expected (hoped for) outcome does justify the torture the pet will experience. Extensive operations&treatments with long recuperation times might not be justified by the limited extension of their lives.

[1] Anecdote: The vet of a local zoo resigned after long years of service. He could not bear the fear and hate his mere presence instilled on the animals. When he visited the zoo with his family, all hell broke loose in the zoo from the moment he entered the premises.

Clive Robinson • November 30, 2023 9:53 AM

@ JonKnowsNothing, Winter,

Re : Colours of the flag and other totems of politics.

“Perhaps it’s some subliminal connection to the use of Red and Blue target markers?”

Remind me now who is,

1, The elephant in the room
2, The braying ass

For some unaccountable reason I have trouble telling them appart, maybe because I blinked…

As Ralph Nader –author of the book “Unsafe at Any Speed” which blew the lid off of the cozy cartel of the automotive industry that had perhaps the worst safety record of any Western industry,– put it

“The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.”

Money can always buy you the worst of everything, especially when the suppliers have to bid competitively. However money won’t buy you the best, and certainly won’t buy you honesty, integrity and other values the majority of voters would actually like to see in a politician.

bl5q sw5N • November 30, 2023 10:35 AM

Re: representative government, ills afflicting

Belloc and Chesterton, The Party System (1911)

It will be the main business of this book to inquire what is the force which not only obstructs but largely reverses the working of the representative machine, turning into an engine of oligarchy what was meant to be an organ of democracy.

The detailed causes of this reversal will require some careful analysis ; but if the thing which makes representative institutions fail here must be expressed in a phrase, the two words which best sum it up are the ” Party System.”

The framers of the US Constitution warned against parties. See also Uniparty, RINO, various episodes of Yes Minister, Yes Prime Minister.

Winter • November 30, 2023 11:52 AM

@bl5q sw5N

The framers of the US Constitution warned against parties.

They also tried to do whatever they could to prevent party forming. The result has been a pretty solid two party system from pretty early on.

Looking around in the world, it seems parties are inevitable. The closest to the framers’ ideal would be a lot of parties, the more the better, the smaller the better.

Countries with multiple different viable coalition governments might be more robust than those with serial single party governments. If your opposition politician of today could be needed as a government partner of tomorrow, you should be nice to each other.

JonKnowsNothing • November 30, 2023 1:06 PM

@Winter, All

re: For a pet, a visit to the Vet is pure torture. Zoo vets get poo thrown at them

Vets did not always instill terror on animals. Old time vets generally had a way to deal with sick and injured animals that was calming rather than triggering their fight or flight responses.

Modern vets do not rely on calming techniques as they are busy people with offices/surgeries full of paying customers. Modern vets rely on testing, using the least cost medical mantra with the highest cost technical evaluation. They are in and out in a few minutes. The rest of the office visit is done with Vet Techs and the Admin Closer.

The Vet Techs, like Medical Assistants do most of the work. The Admin Closer, comes in with the bill and proposed treatment plan costs with “How do you want to pay?”.

There is also a significant difference in owners. Most people think if they have the money to buy it, they can own it. So people get dogs, cats, horses, birds all because they have the money to buy it. They know nothing about these animals and create enormous problems for themselves and for the animals.

The majority of these types of owners, will not take any time to learn how to deal with the animal, especially if it requires they change how they do something.

  • The animal has always been this way
  • The animal has always done this
  • I have always done this like that

It does not need to be like that, but people will throw the animal away, rather than take 5 one hour day trips, to de-stress their dog by visiting the vet’s offices and feeding them in the parking lot and moving progressively closer to the door. With staff permission, finally bringing the animal in for a visit.

These same people have no problem finding 5 one hour time slots for coffee.

A person gets a very nice dog from the shelter. Sweet dog.

The dog does not walk on a leash.

Why?

Then comes the human story about why the dog does not walk on a leash.

The dog has puppyhood historic trauma, the dog does not walk quietly, the dog tries to pull me, the dog doesn’t like the color, the dog doesn’t like the sound, the dog pees on the floor.

It goes on and on and on…

Zoo Vets get special treatment from the animals. They are well hated by all. ~1980 Zoo Vets became Zoo Gods with the advent of “Endangered Species” and “Genetic Analysis” programs. Keepers, who knew the animals best, were relegated to feeders and sweepers.

Zoo Vets constantly harass the animals for blood samples, hormone treatments to increase ovulation and medical techniques for sperm collection.

The corollary group is the PhD Animal Behavior group which monitors and records all actions of the animals. The animals are under constant surveillance, physical and electronic. Animals have a very high degree of awareness about their surroundings. They can sense that something is there, they may not know what it is, but it triggers their sense of fear.

There are lots of videos of the larger apes, charging the break proof glass behind which are a bunch of gawping humans. Other large apes have great throwing arms and can lob poo right across the moats and hit the gawping humans pointing at them.

Winter • November 30, 2023 1:29 PM

@JonKnowsNothing

The corollary group is the PhD Animal Behavior group which monitors and records all actions of the animals.

Good ethologists are like antropologists. If the animals change their behaviour when you are there, you are a worse than useless ethologist.

If you want to learn from the best, read Karl von Frisch, Niko Tinbergen, and Frans de Waal. These people literally did spoke with animals, and listened.

But then, American animal behavior studies is Behaviorism. That is not the study of living animals, but a study of breathing machines

Steve • December 15, 2023 10:49 AM

The first paragraph mentions AT&T and it’s infrastructure.
Which AT&T? The one that’s been out-of-business for several years that used to be an analog landline POTS long distance carrier? Or the one that used to just be a mediocre cellular telephone company that had the bright idea one day to buy the AT&T name from the old company, given that it was the only remaining asset it had? They didn’t have the same infrastructures.

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