Schneier on Security

Clive Robinson • April 30, 2025 9:47 AM

@ ALL,

I am reminded of the old saying from Shakespeare or earlier about sitting down with the Devil,

He who sups with the Devil should have a long spoon”

For those not familiar with the idioms of the First Elizabethan era you can find the following explanation,

“Its literal meaning is that if you get involved with the Devil you should have the means of keeping your distance. Metaphorically, eating with the Devil is dangerous and you should do it with a long spoon so that you don’t get too close.

It’s a lovely idiom and so true – that if you begin to get involved with bad things you will most likely be drawn in, so if you have to deal with bad people you should keep your distance – be very careful not to be drawn into their bad projects. It’s a wonderful image of someone sitting far away from their sinister eating companion, making sure they don’t get too close by, using a long spoon to take their food. Sharing a meal with someone usually means you are already on quite good terms with them or that you want to get to know them better. If you agree to partake of the Devil’s hospitality, you are on dangerous ground and need to beware.”

Translated into the modern Corporate world “to sup” translates to “earn your bread” or money.

So common is the practice of taking money from those of known evil intent or to be an enemy we nolonger say,

“Break bread with the enemy.”

The NSO chose who to be a supplier to, they knew they were evil…

“So why did NSO do it?”

Easy, for the sake of “share holder value”. Where the shareholders are one of the worst evils in modern life “Venture Capitalists”(VCs).

Untill there is actual legislation to stop or regulate the market NSO and similar have decided to profit in… Then Economics 101 rule of “Supply and Demand” indicates that just like trafficking in drugs, weapons, and worse, profit will always ensure supply for a price.

Sadly I can not see any of the VCs who hope to profit by NSO or NSO seniors going to jail for lengthy sentences…

Clive Robinson • April 30, 2025 1:32 PM

@ Andy,

With regards,

“Note that in this case the real criminal is the demand, not the supply.”

That is true for nearly all criminal activity, that is they are just part of the criminal “supply chain”. Consider pimps, drug pushers, and fences there is legislation specific to their types of crime “supply chain” activities.

So legislators are quite capable of making legislation to effect the “supply chain”. Yet as you note,

“There are laws against all kinds of criminals and yet crime persists…”

And will do. People get shot, you ban guns, they get stabbed, so you ban knives, do the figures for shootings and stabbings drop?

Not really and then there are workman’s tools like hammers and screwdrivers even scissors and baseball bats. All waiting in line to use, some years ago I pointed this out on this blog by saying “anything could be used as a weapon” even a rolled up newspaper. The specific example I referred to was wooden coat gangers still allowed in “hand luggage” on aircraft. I pointed out that the metal hook part unscrewed and made a quite lethal weapon.

But some politicians are “knee jerk stupid” they ban anything that they think might be dangerous yet are otherwise essential items in life…

In fact in the UK so desperate are the various governments to stop crime that they are actually responsible for, they have made the owning of certain items illegal.

One such is “pocket knives” another is “solid fuel tablets”,

https://www.world-of-railways.co.uk/news/ban-on-solid-fuel-tablets/

These were widely available and still are[1]. As usual the UK Gov just lies about “extensive consultation”…

Which brings us onto your next legislative observation,

“The next NSO will learn from this and simply adapt by better sheltering assets and holding even less tangible ones that can be clawed.”

It’s an “evolutionary process” and I’ve pointed this out about CCTV and similar use of “static technology” against adaptable and learning “agents with agency”. The smart criminals stay “ahead of the curve” thus face little or no sanctions as you indicate with,

“Assuming META wins, I predict NSO has no large intangible assets. I doubt anyone will be sent to jail. The knowledge is digital and is easily transferrable.”

So yup… The rat can outsmart the cat, but politicians do not appear to grasp this simple fact. All their legislation usually does is “lift the bar a little” and the criminals learn how to jump that little bit higher. So governments just double down on an apparently failed policy…

But is it failed?

It rather depends on what the aim is? To stop crime or gather in revenue…

In the UK we have the “Proceeds of Crimes Act” that the then government promised parliament would only be used against “Serious Crime”. The fact is it’s actually failed against “serious crime” but works against those who are not serious criminals and may not even be criminals but have “assets” of value that can ve easily grabbed.

It’s all used as part of a process known as “rights stripping” where people are denied even the right to defend themselves.

So those who are “serious criminals” in effect “own nothing” and have high paying “consultant” type jobs to account for their life styles, where everything is “on lease or rented”.

[1] For the solid fuel tablets see this UK based supplier,

https://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/16005422/coghlans-solid-fuel-tablets-16005422

But sometimes the “sale” of such items is “as part of” another product such as “Military 24hour Ration or survival packs.

Ration packs many know generically after the US “Meals Ready to Eat” MREs (or by soldiers of a certain generation “Meals rejected by Ethiopians”). Many countries include “Esbit” or similar solid fuel tablets and on joint exercises soldiers from different nations swap their meal packs and people also collect them (I personally miss the tins of oatmeal block biscuits that came in ten man packs you could march a long way on a tin of those and just the sweets from the single rat-packs back in the 80’s).

But several types of military pack also include cutting edges that fall foul of UK legislation, even cyclists combination tools.