Comments

Wayne Scott June 6, 2024 1:01 PM

This seems to exactly match the type of activity this law was intended to cover. The defendant can argue drone vs aircraft or maybe that the law says he needs to be in the aircraft. It is clear that if the law was updated to today using a drone would count.

Sean June 6, 2024 2:02 PM

Well, drone photos have an advantage over satellite photos of angle, and much improved resolution, and can be good enough to see control positions, or to see other details not visible from high above. world of hurt for him, and he really is lucky that one of the charges they can tack on is espionage, which disappears him from a visible prison to another, less visible one. On which seemingly is like the Hotel California…….

yvette June 6, 2024 2:04 PM

“any contrivance used [for] flight in the air” would just as well cover a helium balloon. I think there’s a good case to me made that this law, and the FAA’s claim of federal jurisdiction for anything that flies, are overly broad. The famous US v. Causby decision said that the feds did not have jurisdiction for airspace below about 300 feet—assuming that airspace is not above federal property, of course, which this airspace might have been.

Prosecuting this is a simple trespassing case might’ve made more sense, while avoiding any first-amendment concerns. Though I wonder whether it makes sense at all; is this anything one couldn’t have seen from a tall building or a satellite? If the stuff’s especially sensitive, roll out a tarp or something. An actual adversary, of reasonable intelligence, won’t have a human anywhere near their aerial or marine drone.

What price common sense? June 6, 2024 2:20 PM

@ALL

“The US is using a World War II law that bans aircraft photography of military installations”

There is a problem with legislation in that mostly it is a conflict between

  1. Political ambition.
  2. Societal mores.

Political ambition is mostly inhibitive and retrograde and spawns legislation in a way that we are supposed to accept is “conservative”. But in many ways favours not society or even society in general but a very select few. A few who the majority on thinking it through would rather had no influence what so ever. Especially when it is almost always at the majority of societies expense.

Society in practice never rests, is always on the move, and mostly it’s direction is steady and progressive. Which firmly puts it at difference with political ambition.

Such tensions build in society and at some point some form of civil or national unrest happens.

Generally at which point a lot of societally unwelcome legislation gets pushed rapidly through the political process in the name of “National Security” or similar.

WWII was a case in point, some may have been taught at school about the US internment of US citizens that were seen for no better reason than their ancestry as spies/ saboteurs to be imprisoned indefinitely. It was only with wars end that they were released but still very much under suspicion. The Patriot Act is very much “more of the same” only the war it is for is “politically endless”.

The thing about “emergency legislation” is it has a very nasty habit of becoming “Perpetual”. Because once power is obtained from society, those who obtain it will not willingly give it up, and will fight in many unseemly ways to keep it.

The simple fact is “military installations” are not secret and have not been for years. Also the likes of Google have over-flown them with drones with high resolution cameras for years, and likewise foreign companies and nations with satellites and none of them are going to stop doing so any time soon if ever, even if new legislation is made.

Thus we must ask the question as to

“What purpose does this serve?”

And realistically as far as society is concerned

“none what so ever.”

The obvious I will leave for others to think about and it’s detrimental consequences for all of us.

Cp June 6, 2024 4:01 PM

People are also now getting charged with other export control laws that have been on the books for a long time.

China has enticed technical folks in other fields to share stuff too. We now get annual training on it at work.

Hal June 6, 2024 7:25 PM

Going to another country and filming their military bases is an interesting tourism activity. I’m sure that would work out well for many people around the world. Too bad he didn’t fasten the camera to a kite, then the articles could bury the lead under “Minnesota student on holiday arrested for flying a kite in Virginia.”

Winter June 7, 2024 1:51 AM

The US is using a World War II law that bans aircraft photography of military installations

I know no countries where it is allowed to make pictures of military installations. Allowing it is pure madness. Most countries even ban making pictures of airfields in general.

So what is the problem here?

yvette June 7, 2024 10:51 AM

Winter, Wikipedia is full of pictures of airfields, so I’m very sceptical that airfield pictures are banned in most places. Visit List of busiest airports by passenger traffic and start clicking; literally everything in the top 20 has a photo. And, notably, I’ve seen no evidence that the USA bans pictures of military installations. If they did, why would they need to ban specific methods of making such pictures? Certainly lots of people have taken photographs of the Pentagon. Area 51 does have a “photography is prohibited sign”, of which one can easily find amateur photographs. I see civilian photos of Washington Navy Yard and Portsmouth Naval Shipyard, also on Wikipedia.

As Hal notes, using a camera attached to a kite could get someone arrested under this law. A long stick, though, wouldn’t (no “flight”). Is there a more general US law that would cover it? What about painting one I can see from my apartment balcony, or making a sketch of what I’ve seen from a public street? I expect there would be serious free speech concerns.

Winter June 7, 2024 11:13 AM

@yvette

If they did, why would they need to ban specific methods of making such pictures?

It matters whether you make a picture from public roads or from the inside or from the air. You will find that the more interesting things are not visible from the road. Drones can see many more things than you can see from the road.

Wikipedia is full of pictures of airfields,

Maybe my information is outdated. I do remember long time ago one of our Maps was arrested in Greece for plane spotting. But that was overturned I see
‘https://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/07/world/greek-appeals-court-overturns-conviction-of-14-plane-spotters.html

Winter June 7, 2024 11:17 AM

@yvette
Correction:

“I do remember long time ago one of our Maps ”

Should be:

“I do remember long time ago one of our MPs (Member of Parliament)”

What price common sense? June 7, 2024 2:46 PM

@yvette

“Is there a more general US law that would cover it?”

I would not ask @Winter, they are not from the US think a place where Windmills were once pumping as opposed to grinding away.

@Winter’s grasp, like that of @echo’s, of the laws of the nations they actually live in is at best flakey.

So you’d be better of asking someone in the US that has a reasonable amount of knowledge.

However one observation is that US legislation this century is getting broader in scope of it’s coverage. Worse some very old legislation from times when technology was horse based can be dug up and abused, as happened with Apple v. the FBI and DoJ not that long ago. That the DoJ bailed on rather than have an adverse judgment made against them that would effect future cases.

lurker June 7, 2024 3:43 PM

@Hal, @ALL
“Going to another country and filming their military bases is an interesting tourism activity.”

Not even military bases:
On a trip on the trans-Siberian train in the 1970s we were warned against photographing any bridges.
This century I have been “reminded” twice in China against photographing railway tunnels. Trains, stations, bridges, were OK, but not tunnels.

Robin June 8, 2024 6:31 AM

@Winter:

I have a delightful memory from the “plane-spotters in Greece” episode. After being released, one of the plane-spotters was interviewed and he expressed his sense of relief, of course. Followed by: “I can’t wait to get back to Britain and eat a proper English meal – a big chicken tikka marsala is what I want”.

That gave me a happy feeling.

(I might not be quoting the exact words – it was a long time ago. But that was the gist of it)

Winter June 8, 2024 7:28 AM

@Robin

“I can’t wait to get back to Britain and eat a proper English meal – a big chicken tikka marsala is what I want”.

I do share the sentiment. And it is typical.

Dutch Cuisine is a lot like the British. The meals I long for when I am away are mainly of Asian origin.

When in Asia, I feel culinary at home. Having Soto Ayam or a decent Biryani is when I feel best.

Original Dutch Cuisine only attracts tourists.

vas pup June 8, 2024 5:17 PM

Attis Aviation develops unique vertical take-off drone
https://en.globes.co.il/en/article-attis-aviation-develops-unique-vertical-take-off-drone-1001480862

“The drone has a hybrid drive system, which includes electric motors and an engine that runs on jet fuel.

Israeli startup Attis Aviation, which was founded 30 months ago, is independently developing an ROC system for drones weighing a maximum of 150 kilograms for commercial and military use, sources have informed “Globes.”

The ROC drones have vertical landing and take-off capabilities (VTOL) and can carry payloads of up to 40 kilograms (sensors or logistical loads) and remain airborne for more than 20 hours. The drone has a point in the nose on which imaging equipment can be fixed and a large payload bay in the body (1.2 meters long). The drone has a hybrid drive system, which includes electric motors and an engine that runs on jet fuel.

The system is designed to civil aviation standards and therefore can be flown in the same airspace with manned aircraft. >This is intended for the benefit of government sectors, such as the fire department, where the field of drones has been gaining momentum in recent years, both for detecting and extinguishing fires.

The drone is designed to allow work in an environment without GPS, as experienced by many regions of the country during the war, as well as in a marine or urban environment.
The operation of the ROC is designed for one pilot and a full deployment of a system will be carried out with a minimum team of two people and in a minimum time of 30 minutes from arrival at the take-off point and the take-off. The company has developed a tactical deployment concept, which allows take-off of the drone from the box on the trailer, after the box becomes the take-off surface.

Attis Aviation CEO Mark Koltun told “Globes,” “The reason we chose the military market and the semi-military market as our first target markets is the understanding that civilian customers will have difficulty accepting a drone system that has just finished development and has not yet completed the entire maturation process.
On the other hand, the military customer is used to receiving new drone systems and integrating them into the force, while tweaking the system with the manufacturer.”

emily's post June 8, 2024 7:25 PM

Re: tikka masala, biryani, satay, etc.

What, whaa ? You’re saying they’re using drones to deliver SE cuisine takeout to military bases ?!?

Whatever fills the gap. June 8, 2024 9:53 PM

@Winter

“When in Asia, I feel culinary at home. Having Soto Ayam or a decent Biryani is when I feel best.”

Biryani is not an Asian dish in origin.

It was created in Persia / Iran then migrated along the Spice Route to Asia.

In fact there are a number of supposedly Asia dishes that were created not in India or other parts of Asia, but in the UK, and then exported back to Asia.

If in the UK in London try “Mile End” for some of the best Curry houses in the world as far as the European palate is concerned.

Then there is equally as good Birmingham where during University term time sitting down to a decent curry at 3AM was quite popular.

In fact many UK University towns have both decent curry houses, Thai and Chinese eateries, open to quite early hours.

I’m told that the expression

“Time for tiffin”

Or “high tea” as they say in Scotland is a funny back and forth between England and the Raja.

But also the name of a “cold cake” in Scotland that you might know where you come from as,

“Arretjescake”

Anyway it’s time for dinner and this talk of food is as they apparently say in England,

“Making me peckish”

Winter June 9, 2024 12:12 AM

@Man behind a Thousand Names
Re: Biryani originated in Persia

I did not know that, but Persia is still in Asia.

lurker June 9, 2024 1:13 PM

@Winter

Wikipedia thinks the boundary of Asia could be between the Bosphorus and the Tigris, but modbot doesn’t like me quoting Lewis & Wigen 1997, or your protagonist’s handle.

Whatever fills the gap June 9, 2024 2:31 PM

@lurker (with a small l ?)

“Wikipedia thinks the boundary of Asia could be between the Bosphorus and the Tigris”

What Wikipedia says is

“Asia shares the landmass of Eurasia with Europe, and of Afro-Eurasia with both Europe and Africa.”

So the girls Africa and Europa, further,

“The border of Asia with Europe is a historical and cultural construct, as there is no clear physical and geographical separation between them. It is somewhat arbitrary and has moved since its first conception in classical antiquity.”

Which is what I noted about the Greeks et al. Such “Historical and Cultural Constructs” are also called “Social Constructs” on which you will find

“Social constructionism posits that the meanings of phenomena do not have an independent foundation outside the mental and linguistic representation that people develop about them throughout their history, and which becomes their shared reality.”

Note “shared reality” that is it is the people that have lived their historically not imposed from outside.

Which is why the various US and European views do not matter.

You could go on to talk about the UN but that gets really really messy as recent European History shows, and that’s before you start talking about the “Imperialism of the UN Security Council” permanent members.

So no need to “fake it up” or similar with

“but modbot doesn’t like me quoting Lewis & Wigen 1997, or your protagonist’s handle.”

Martin W. Lewis and Karen E. Wigenin in their now well over a quarter century old book ‘The Myth of Continents: A Critique of Metageography’ (University of California Press : 1997) take issue with what are seen as conventional geographical divisions and mapping.

They argue that social short hand concepts like East vs. West, First World vs. Third World. Are misrepresentations of the world from an imperialistic European and American view point. Likewise the faux concept of what is seen as “the traditional” Seven Continental system (which has changed through much of recorded history).

The authors view these systems as oversimplifications and misrepresentations of the world not just in the past but upto the late 20th century post various major conflicts. They walk the historical development path of these misconceptions, specifically highlighting the actual reality of how (the three girls of), Africa, Asia, and Europe interconnect as part of a single landmass with no real recognizable separation. Thus “The Myth of Continents” gives a historical perspective on how European sociocultural concepts shaped the metageographical statements and views of the largest single landmass on the globe (~30% landmass 9% surface). This is especially true due to both the Great, Second, and Cold wars changing most borders almost arbitrarily with a stroke of the pen post the stability of the Ottoman Empire caused in part by Russian Imperialist expansion in the 19th Century. In part this was due to negating sea travel and hydrocarbon fuels exploited by the British and other Empires.

Thus agreeing with what I’ve already briefly outlined.

Winter June 9, 2024 4:25 PM

@Man Hidding Behind a Thousand Names

Which is why the various US and European views do not matter.

I am a simple person. If Iranians say they are from Asia, every geographical text I have ever seen and every atlas I have ever seen all say Iran is in Asia, I simply take their word for it.

So, as all other people in the world, when I say, “in Asia”, this includes Iran.

I have never thought for even a moment that “continents” are anything other than social constructs.

@lurker
Re: Tigris

Iran lies east of the Tigris, so I do not see what this matters.

Winter June 9, 2024 5:10 PM

@Troll Hidding Behind a Thousand Names

“but Persia is still in Asia.”
Says who?

Iranians, Wikipedia, Encyclopedia Britannica, Our World in Data, every atlas printed.

If you mention “Asia”, every person on earth that ever looked at a map of the world will understand it as including the Middle East.

The very people living there even agree.

You are so predictable. You rather start redefining continents than admitting you slipped up. Quite pathetic.

Whatever fills the gap June 10, 2024 6:44 AM

@The fraudulent Winter cloven.

You really do insist on doing it to yourself don’t you?

Do you know the expression about fish in barrels?

By : Winter
At : June 10, 2024 3:44 AM
In : https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2024/06/espionage-with-a-drone.html/#comment-438229

So here we go again with

#—-
Which is utterly irrelevant as all the inhabitants of these geographical areas call themselves proudly by these names.
#—-

I very much “ALL” do anything of the sort. In fact we know that some ISIS for instance most certainly did not. So another falsehood from you again.

But also you are doing “present tense” when the topic is historic thus mostly “past tense” and as the link you chose to use in your previous post pointed out, the peoples in the entire region did not use those names not even close as most were unaware of them.

So who is whipping their strawman into servitude?

And then we have

#—-
Again, mansplaining that all the people living in Asia, Afrika, and Europe are wrong about how they call their homelands.
#—-

Present tense again… But even @echo who moans on about it one way or another seemingly endlessly knows that not every one that lives in the European Continent calls where they live “Europe” and certainly not proudly…

Some call it Britain, England, Scotland, Wales, etc proudly but not Europe. It’s why there was this little thing called “Brexit” you might remember being in the news every few weeks and still in the news even now.

Speaking of which,

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13501949/Fury-French-immigration-British-paras-passports-D-Day-jump-Normandy.html

Not many calling themselves European there… In fact quite the opposite in some cases (if they’ve not been removed by the time you go there).

Also have you seen the election results from over the past few days in Europe?

There are a few there that don’t talk proudly of “Europe” or Europe at all far from it…

There is a song from the “Rocky Horror Show” by Richard O’Brien, called “Time warp”, that has a couple of immortal lines in it that now are the wrong way around,

“It’s just a jump to the left,
And then a step to the right.”

And now as always with you the silly

#—-
I see our host was right, never feed the Trolls.
#—-

So are you being put on a starvation diet then?

fib June 10, 2024 3:17 PM

..and nobody brought World Island up in this thread. A symptom of the shrinkage of the conceptual space in the Social Media era.

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