Automakers Are Sharing Driver Data with Insurers without Consent

Kasmir Hill has the story:

Modern cars are internet-enabled, allowing access to services like navigation, roadside assistance and car apps that drivers can connect to their vehicles to locate them or unlock them remotely. In recent years, automakers, including G.M., Honda, Kia and Hyundai, have started offering optional features in their connected-car apps that rate people’s driving. Some drivers may not realize that, if they turn on these features, the car companies then give information about how they drive to data brokers like LexisNexis [who then sell it to insurance companies].

Automakers and data brokers that have partnered to collect detailed driving data from millions of Americans say they have drivers’ permission to do so. But the existence of these partnerships is nearly invisible to drivers, whose consent is obtained in fine print and murky privacy policies that few read.

Tags: , , ,

Posted on March 14, 2024 at 7:01 AM • 37 Comments

Comments

Grumpy Old Coot • March 14, 2024 8:58 AM

The C2C (Car To Car) initiative is only going to make things like this more difficult to avoid. Any vehicle I buy in the future will have its cellphone antennae removed and the xG communications module Faraday-caged. And more then likely, I’ll be isolating the BL/BLE modules as well.

Bob Paddock • March 14, 2024 9:07 AM

Some people are actually volunteering to have devices plugged into their vehicles to get lower insurance rates. Usually without understanding they are signing up to be spied on.

Department of Transportation has been pushing for Vehicle to Everything (V2X) for a while. The real reason They want 5G everywhere, due to its (only) theoretical low latency.

“Saving Lives with Connectivity – Vehicle-to-Everything National Deployment Plan: A Perspective from the Intelligent Transportation Systems Joint Program Office Director Brian Cronin”

‘https://www.its.dot.gov/research_areas/emerging_tech/pdf/Accelerate_V2X_Deployment_summary.pdf

Clive Robinson • March 14, 2024 9:35 AM

@ Grumpy Old Coot, ALL,

“Any vehicle I buy in the future will have its cellphone antennae removed and the xG communications module Faraday-caged. And more then likely, I’ll be isolating the BL/BLE modules as well.”

And shortly there after your car will be bricked and you will if you are very luck have to pay $500 USD or more to get it working again.

The article says,

“car companies then give”

The use of “give” is kind of disengenuous, it’s not done “for free” thus is hiding the fact it’s got very high “benefit” to the vehicle manufacturers.

When such benefit can be stopped or taken away by technical means the “self entitled” get very nasty in the ways they enforce what they see as “their rightful entitlement”.

For instance as I’ve mentioned, a certain well known vehicle manufacture has decided that the car must “always be powered up” for their benefit. Thus if you don’t drive it whilst away on holiday, not only does the battery discharge to the point where all the electric locks unlock, it destroys the battery and looses all the settings in the computer.

So even if you replace the battery the car will still not work. It has to go back to a “dealership” to be reprogrammed. They will only do that if they get to tow it and store it getting nice big fat charges for that. But also ludicrously over priced “manufacturers battery” that the vehicle manufacture gets a big kick-back on as well as “technician training” and “programming equipment” rental.

So hundreds if not thousands will get taken from you any which way they can “screw you over” and if you try to stop it they will persecute you every which way they can as an example not to stop their “self entitlement”.

Oh and don’t forget that your nations legislators and regulators get kick-backs as well.

Some indicate that by the way things are going unless the public wake up, by the end of this decade you will never own what you buy, and any attempt by you to have rights over it, will result in your life being destroyed by criminal convictions, legal costs, fines, and all that follows.

Who to blame for all of this?

Remember Bill Gates of MicroShaft and his letter about BASIC? Well that’s effectively when the trend started.

Joe D • March 14, 2024 10:10 AM

They’ve been doing this for years.

I was talking with a friend who works at a large American car company. He told me they gather all kinds of info and sell it. For example, they can tell when you hit really bumpy sections of road with lots of potholes. They then sell this road condition info to cities and/or highway departments.

I mentioned something about disabling the thing, and his reaction was along the lines of “Good luck with that”. They bury it deep in the car to the point that you’d practically have to remove the dashboard to get to it.

yet another bruce • March 14, 2024 10:26 AM

I suspect phone apps could, and maybe do, gather a lot of this information. Speeds, locations, acceleration and braking. Seems like a job for data fiduciaries, once again.

...doug • March 14, 2024 10:49 AM

There is a typo in the attribution. It should be Kashmir Hill, not Kasmir Hill.

…doug

fib • March 14, 2024 11:10 AM

Re Clive’s comment on B. Gates.

Peroration of a man who sees everything through the prism of money:

‘https://www.seattletimes.com/business/gates-memos-an-open-letter-to-hobbyists/

lurker • March 14, 2024 12:29 PM

Sounds like the old hippie meme from the early internet:

“Information just wants to be free”

except of course in this case free as in freedom, not free as in beer, because there are people lining up to pay money for it. I am so glad I gave up owning a motor vehicle some years ago.

mark • March 14, 2024 12:38 PM

All of this leads to one question NO ONE has mentioned: what happens when you sell your car, or buy a used one? Is the information still going to the car company? Has change of ownership been registered with the company?

Chris Bonatti • March 14, 2024 12:58 PM

As another Old Coot in training, I feel that I have perhaps purchased my last vehicle… at a relatively young age. I expect to keep my present vehicles running as long as possible, and deal with repairs and replacements from secondary markets. I do not think that car manufacturers have fully considered the ramifications of their choices. They are full-time engaged in trying to push products on me that I categorically don’t want. My way of looking at it is that they’ve changed their primary business model, and no longer consider me the customer.

There are a lot of folks out there like Grumpy Old Coot and me. So what’s going to happen to their future sales?

I’ve told the various auto dealers that I USED TO deal with about this… but I expect to be ignored, as usual. (After all, I work in the security industry… so I’m used to THAT experience.)

admm • March 14, 2024 1:02 PM


… optional features in their connected-car apps that rate people’s driving. Some drivers may not realize that, if they turn on these features

I’m wondering why a driver would want to turn it on ? Are there any advantages or incentives to do so ?

JonKnowsNothing • March 14, 2024 1:44 PM

@Clive, @ Grumpy Old Coot, ALL

re: @C: So even if you replace the battery the car will still not work. It has to go back to a “dealership” to be reprogrammed.

RL tl;dr

I once owned a Volvo (ahh yes that), I went for a shopping and when I returned with a cart load of marketing, the car would not start. Not even a grind. It was early days of cell phones so I was able to get a tow truck to haul the thing to a local dealer, but Murphy At Work, it was a weekend and I was left Shanks Mare with a pile of groceries.

When the Monday rolled around I got a call from the dealership and they told me that the battery was fine but the digital key system was borked and they had to replace it with a new system. They had the part for the steering column but had to send to Sweden to get the new matching security key fob.

Emoya • March 14, 2024 2:16 PM

@mark,

I imagine that the car company reports activity keyed off of the VIN, then it would be up to LexisNexis or other parties to resolve the current owner.

@Chris Bonatti,

“My way of looking at it is that they’ve changed their primary business model, and
no longer consider me the customer.”

I agree, the assumption used to be that, “if you are not paying for the product, then you are the product.”, but it has pretty much evolved into, “you are always the product”, regardless of whether or not you are paying.

Q • March 14, 2024 2:44 PM

admm “I’m wondering why a driver would want to turn it on ?”
Because they are tricked by descriptions like “improving the experience” or similar wording.

admm “Are there any advantages or incentives to do so ?”
There are many great advantages. None of the advantages are for the owner, all of the advantages are for the people that collect the data.

Data collection is never to help you. It is always to help the entity collecting it.

Anonymous • March 14, 2024 3:13 PM

On my 2019 F350, I unplugged the telematics control unit, which houses the cell modem.

dbCooper • March 14, 2024 4:51 PM

Driving a classic/antique car has benefits well beyond the “coolness” factor. For example, my 1969 Corvette provides me with the following:
– None of the personal invasions mentioned above.
– One time lifetime license/registration fee for historical plates, $85. in my case.
– Full coverage insurance cost less than $300. per year.
– Immune from EMP and solar flare events. Granted the radio may be impacted but, 350+ horses under the hood with minimally restricted exhaust is all the music I need.
– If so inclined, easily repairable with only a few specialized tools.
– Long past depreciating, it now is more valuable each passing year.

Granted that “new” vehicles have many things in their favor. For those that don’t want or need them, “old” is worth a look.

K • March 14, 2024 4:51 PM

About 8 years ago I bought a Kia. Asked the dealer about whether it had a cellular connection like OnStar. It didn’t. You had to sync your cell phone with the car, and it communicated through your cell phone. That sold me on the car, and I bought it. Dealer wanted to show me how to sync my cell. I said “No Thanks”. Never synced it. Car has been “dumb” ever since. It does exactly what I want it to do. Gets me from A to B.

Now car dealers keep calling me up, sending me fliers. They want to buy my old car. Personally, I’d love to upgrade to electric. (This thing gets awful gas mileage.)

But if they’re going to spy on me, I’ll stick with my gas guzzler for as long as I can keep it running.

lurker • March 14, 2024 5:06 PM

@admm
“I’m wondering why a driver would want to turn it on ?”

I’m wondering why a driver is given the option to turn it on. Often that stuff can be on by default. There may be an option to turn it off, but needs deep digging in undocumented menus.

Clive Robinson • March 14, 2024 7:44 PM

@ dbCopper,

“Immune from EMP and solar flare events.”

Solar flare events are slow to rise long to hold with energy per unit of time not that large, so class 3 events.

Back in the peak of Solar Cycle 22 Quebec got hit with two solar flare events. The second in the first half of March 1989 caused power outages for getting on for ten hours. This was due to very long quite high and well exposed very high voltage grid cables above very badly conducting ground. So the energy as charge went the low impedance route through the grid.

In more recent times it’s been a double tap solar flare event. The first effective fired a blank as there was not a CME but made things easier for the second that did have a fair sized CME load that trundled through space for a few days before it splatted down on the 13th. Perhaps I should note we are heading towards the peak of solar cycle 25 and so far there have been a number of large CME events that have mostly not hit us or at best just brushed. That said we are from various natural records overdue a Carrington level or above event.

That said if it comes in as a class 3 event any vehicle would need more than a mile of magnetically unshielded wire trailing in the right direction. So yes “old Jerry can motors” will be OK as with even most “gas guzzlers”. However EV’s on charge might give a “Fireworks night” style event due to grid surge. However… if the “Federal Energy Regulatory Commission”(FERC) and the “North American Electric Reliability Corporation”(NERC) have done they jobs and prodded butt in the energy companies then grid surge should no longer be an issue (but I’d not go to bank on that).

EMP now that is fish of a very different nature… I’m guessing you are actually thinking “High Altitude nuclear EMP (HEMP) Which is not a slow bottom feeder like the major Solar CME “Geomagnetically Induced Event”(GIC) to toast the toes with near “Direct Current”(DC) I^2R heating issues going through the ground. Nope, it has a very fast rise time and very high in energy per unit of time and has a very wide frequency spectrum so generally would be a class 1 event.

The initial gamma radiation strips the electrons off of gas molecules, giving a cascade of charged particles. Rather than going through the ground it first ioniszes the atmosphere making it highly conductive and then steps the frequency down by radiation transport. The resulting EM radiation in the upper atmosphere rips around the globe at a substantial fraction of the speed of light. As it’s nearly coherent the rising edge can be many thousands of volts per second in pico or nano seconds. This quite literally blows holes through insulating layers leaving low impedance ionised conduction paths which dump the energy into what would normally be considered solid matter…

Whilst the heavy metal body of an older style car will appear at low frequencies to be very low impedance, the same is most definitely not true at even moderately higher frequencies in the HF range where loop inductance will cause increasing impedance with frequency. Up into UHF and low microwave frequencies transmission line length will make the gaps between body panels impedance effectively frequency dependent. Untill the voltage rises sufficiently to ionise and “flash over” across the panel edges burning and melting them. So your paint job will suffer and oxidizing will make rust fairly rapidly appear.

As long as you are either inside or more than a meter away at the time of the nuclear flash you will probably be OK. However being half in or half out will be a very different story. I’ve had both RF burns and discharge flash burns in my time and neither tends to heal to quickly because they tend to kill the surface capillaries thus stop surface blood flow.

As for implanted medical electronics I’m not to sure what will happen and to be honest I don’t want to know as the odds are it will be bad news.

Also • March 14, 2024 11:45 PM

Comments here have become edgelordy. How can people who claim to be interested in security fall so far into absolutist “always” / “never” traps?

Telemetry can be good for users. I work in product, and it is super useful to know that 1.5m people use feature X each month but 60k use feature Y. Knowing whether our improvements to a feature are helping or are just wasted time is very useful. Like most product people, I want to make better products. Usage data helps that effort.

Telemetry can also be bad for users. Privacy, performance, lots of reasons.

I’m sure it feels good to rant about how something is always bad because all whatevers always do whatever, but any adult knows that’s not how the world works, and it’s kind of embarrassing to see.

TimH • March 15, 2024 12:49 AM

Also: “Telemetry can be good for users”. Per your exact example, you are using existing customers for unpaid market research for the next product. The telemetry has no benefit for the users being surveilled.

Q • March 15, 2024 12:59 AM

Hi Also.

Thanks for proving the point that data collection is purely to help the collectors.

Making “better products” is purely to help the collector. I’m sure those 60k nobodies that rely upon feature Y don’t consider it “better” when the feature is abandoned because it no longer gets any love. Sorry to all those 60k feature Y users, you are all using it wrong.

The tyranny of the majority, and reduction to the lowest common denominator, are further enhanced by data collection that “proves” “no one” use those “useless” features, so they are removed to expand the pay cheques of the execs and make everyone else miserable.

Only people that benefit from collection will promote it. It is no coincidence that it is only the collectors that promote it. It isn’t to “make better products”, it is to make products that improve the bottom lines on the financial reports.

It’s all about the money. It’s always about the money. It’s never about helping users. It’s about making more money from the users.

JonKnowsNothing • March 15, 2024 2:03 AM

@Also, @TimH , @Q, All

And just in case you haven’t felt your proposition sinking …

  • The adage “80:20 rule” hasn’t changed for a long time (1)

You do not need heaps of data to know very quickly what works and what doesn’t.

Regardless of what platform, system or software is developed, a large portion of users will never use the entire system (80%). A very small percentage will use more than the larger population of users (20%).

It is the smaller group (20%) that counts because they are nearly always financial whales, willing to demand something extra and able to pay for it.

You may be dazzled by relative numbers of these groups, but this is barely relevant to the situation. The important group is the one that has the lolly.

Software is not written for the masses, it is written for the wealthy few who can dictate what goes into development. Those are people that buy (2) the majority of your product, and it accounts for 80% of the sales. The masses provide Marginal Income, just extra cash because you can on-sell what you built for the whale group, snagging a bit more into the corporate coffers.

A common proof can be found in the many “custom” versions of the same software. It’s also the reason software fails after a critical change point.

Some WhaleA wants their logo on the splash screen. So their custom logo is generated and a custom splash screen inserter code is created.

But then WhaleB wants their logo but a completely different way than WhaleA’s verison as – we cannot mimic our competitor.

When the code base change is something more substantial than a splash screen you get a FORK in the code.

After a bunch of FORKS your code is beyond Well Done.

===

1)

ht tps://en.wik ipedia.org/wiki/80_20_rule

  • The Pareto principle (also known as the 80/20 rule, the law of the vital few and the principle of factor sparsity) states that for many outcomes, roughly 80% of consequences come from 20% of causes (the “vital few”)
  • Mathematically, the 80/20 rule is roughly described by a power law distribution (also known as a Pareto distribution) for a particular set of parameters. Many natural phenomena are distributed according to power law statistics.
  • It is an adage of business management that “80% of sales come from 20% of clients.”

2)
Buy in this sense is to exchange a financial resource for your product.

The product does not have to be in the Open Market Place, any source of financial exchange like Venture Capital is a form of buying the product.

Anonymous • March 15, 2024 3:08 AM

@mark
After a car is sold, the car maker continues surveilling subsequent owners who haven’t signed all those waivers…I wonder how does it work in the less privacy-unfriendly countries than the USA…considering that car VIN is a PII it surely looks like a DMCA violation.

Rolling darkout • March 15, 2024 3:25 AM

There’s a Nissan from 2015/2016-ish for which telemetry ends in April because its connectivity is based on a 2G modem, and the 2G network will be shut down then in this area. Nissan has no plan for upgrading the hardware, so those will then be tracking-free (and also impossible to remote control).

The bus tracks you less than cars do, and most bikes have no electronics at all, much less tracking. (Though anti-theft trackers for bikes can be added, and anyway most people carry a phone.) Considering how many people are killed/maimed by car drivers, some tracking makes sense for them, hence licence plates and automatic readers for them.

Clive Robinson • March 15, 2024 4:29 AM

@ JonKnowsNothing, Also, Q, TimH, ALL,

Re : The joys of “self similar” or growth / power curves.

As you note,

“Mathematically, the 80/20 rule is roughly described by a power law distribution (also known as a Pareto distribution) for a particular set of parameters. Many natural phenomena are distributed according to power law statistics.
“

It’s important to note that the 80 and 20 reference different usually unrelated measures. So the adding the two numbers is silly, and why all such “equal 100%” rules are “of thumb” not “of proof” and thus dubious…

Also few realise that they are “percentage of the remainder” or “self similar curves”, which means they are all the same cure just scaled differently (the exponential curve).

The one I mention more often than others around here engineers call the “CR time constant” curve that evolution also loves. Which since “supply chain” became the buzz realisation around the time of C19 is the “natural growth curve” or 2/3rds or 67% rule and on average how efficient a system should be if it’s to survive. Below 2/3rds systems get increasingly “flabby” or wasteful. However above that it they become increasingly brittle or fragile. It’s why the neo-con mantra of “Don’t leave money on the table/floor” is actually very bad advice and things fail in explosive fashion thus unrecoverably.

Such curves are called “self similar” because if you take the tangent of the curve at any point and linearly scale it to any other point the tangents are all identical. So a piece wise approximation of “% of the remainder”.

There is such an “observational rule” about many things in life and their quality difference. This rule of thumb that says,

“Only 10% makes the grade…”

With the oft forgotten rest of

“… and only 10% of the 10% is good, with just 10% of those being excellent.”

There is a “Marketing Museum” that has examples of products that were successes and those that were not. Clearly seen is the 10% rule, but importantly there is no way you can extract out the “success essence”. Which is why “marketing” is the worlds second biggest and long running “con-game” after “the estates of man” of “The King Game and Religion” used to “dupe the masses” (something that is showing a very dangerous resurgence).

Rather than call Marketing a “long con” which it is, they call it a “social technique” which we in Security call “Social engineering” (and yes I’m strangely reminded of “walls and revolutions” as in “First up against…” for the practitioners).

You will sometimes hear of it expressed as American Science Fiction writer Theodore Sturgeon’s observation of,

“90% of everything is crap”

He made it in the first half of the 1950’s when SciFi magazines were popular and book critics who thought their preferred genres were “loosing out” made acerbic comment with “cherry picked” examples of excruciatingly bad SciFi. He in turn observed the same about the critics preferred genres, and unsurprisingly overly preened feathers flew in the following “cock fight”.

Actually though, Sturgeon was beaten to the observation by George Orwell who’s “day job” was actually as a reviewer of books after WWII and he noted in an essay about all books:

In much more than nine cases out of ten the only objectively truthful criticism would be “This book is worthless”

Thus “So much more English” (meaning polite / refined / genteel 😉

JonKnowsNothing • March 15, 2024 5:42 AM

@Rolling darkout, All

re: most bikes have no electronics at all, much less tracking.

RL tl;dr

Pre-COVID I used to have a road bicycle and sometimes went in gang fashion on bike rides though the local countryside with a bicycle club.

I didn’t think that bikes had trackers until, in a haze of bike-nerd-ness, I bought a small device that had connections clamped to different parts of the bike so I could tell Wind, Distance, Elevation and most of all Speed, which really showed how slow I pedaled. (1)

There are a number of manufacturers of these devices, the one I bought was a major brand name, and once you got past the first part of the set up routine, it was obvious that it was a full on tracking device marketed as a sports metering system.

My version required manual uploading of data to the company site. Later versions of the device uploaded real time telemetry to the company returning your “athletic metrics”.

  • iirc(badly) Later on, a secret CIA camp was revealed by soldiers wearing such devices as they ran laps around the compound, while the device flashed imagery of them running through the tulips. The heat-map created by the uploaded telemetry showed the entire layout of the camp. The local population was Not Amused as they didn’t even know their government had agreed to the CIA presence in their community.

In the same vein, Trail Cameras, used by hunters, ranchers, and biologists now come with built in cell or satellite connections, upload the captured images and use “AI” to identify the objects in the picture, returning GPS coordinates, seasonal tracking patterns, and merge data from previous image captures to build a full map of day, time, season where the animal migrates, eats, sleeps and drinks and can even pick out your trophy animal for the next hunting season with the exact location to find them on Opening Day.

Versions of these are used by horse owners in many stables, where they get RT video and audio of their horse in the stall or paddock. Horses are prone to doing themselves great mischief at 3am. (2) They also capture anyone passing in camera range and any barn-talk chatter. (cue: whaddaya mean my horse is blimpy-blimpy?!!)

===

1) My pedal rate was dismal compared to my age-level-cohort. If I cranked 9mph it was a miracle. They cranked well past 12mph and for the most part waited for me to catch up at the next cross street.

The better non-pro set could crank 25-35mph going up the 10,320 ft (3,150 m) Kaiser Peak, and hit 60mph easy on the down grade.

Such biking ended for me during C19 pandemic and as noted, the rate of deaths by motor vehicle is high for road bikes. Too many Rides of Silence and Ghost Bikes, hammered that home.

htt ps://en.wikipedi a.org/wiki/Ride_of_Silence

  • The Ride of Silence is an annual multi-location, international bicycle ride to commemorate cyclists killed and support those injured while riding on public roads.

htt ps://en.wik ipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_bike

  • A ghost bike (also referred to as a ghostcycle or WhiteCycle) is a bicycle roadside memorial, placed where a cyclist has been killed or severely injured, usually by the driver of a motor vehicle.

2)

Def: Cast, the state of an animal laying down that is unable to get up. May be due to illness or injury. Also occurs when a horse in a box stall (loose box) rolls over against a wall, trapping its legs against the wall.

Clive Robinson • March 15, 2024 6:48 AM

@ Rolling darkout,

Re : 2G may not be gone even if there is no apparent public service.

“… for which telemetry ends in April because its connectivity is based on a 2G modem, and the 2G network will be shut down then in this area.”

Maybe not. It kind of depends…

I don’t know where you live but in a lot of places 2G will not actually get “turned off and removed” just have access to the public curtailed.

For instance in the UK 2G is staying and 3G should “be gone” by the end of this year. 4G should be gone in many places by the end of the decade but certainly will not end in the UK for at least a decade and a half if not more as 5G and proposed 6G are actually not suitable in many respects.

Why is this? Well two basic reasons,

1, Infrastructure systems.
2, Legislated safety systems.

Often they are the same thing.

In many places utility supplies are controlled by 2G and 4G modems using either SMS or “dial up” data via the “AT Command set”. There are so many systems out there and many can not be upgraded any time soon or at all.

Smart meters have 2G because it’s coverage “footprint” is much greater than 4G. In theory those Smart Meters will be “in service” for between a quarter and half a century. Thus 2G will stay or big fat sums will go to the utility companies from the tax payer[1].

The Utility companies are “blackmailing” the “mobile service providers” and Government “Spectrum managers” in various ways so they do not have to make the sunk upgrade costs for the sake of “Shareholder value” and “Executive bonuses”.

Similar are things like “traffic light” management and the “blues and two’s buzz through” systems. Where emergency vehicles can have the traffic lights set in their favour so they can get to accidents etc much more quickly than they would do with out it. Thus getting down into “The platinum 10 minutes” which has a very significant effect on reducing the hospital DOA stats and similar.

Then there are “transnational safety standards”. In Europe there are a number of public vehicle safety systems that have 2G standardized as the communications protocol. Trains are one such. This means 2G service along rail tracks needs to be either kept or built.

But in the UK there are plans in place such that all emergency services including coastguard and emergency utility maintenance personnel (even GPs and Vets). Be they on foot, bicycle, road vehicle, boat, ship, helicopter or even low flying plane will be connected over the 4G network via “Push to talk” systems. In return for a nice fat contract the mobile service provider has to take 4G service to “all areas” of the UK at sufficient service levels for all emergency personnel and also members of the public.

It’s also hoped that the utilities will be thus pushed off of 2G.

So even though your 2G phone service might be gone, that does not mean 2G data systems will be gone. If the basic data service remains even though your mobile phone does not see it, your vehicle telemetry may continue functioning…

[1] The story behind “smart meters” is very very sordid. It’s not about being environmentally friendly but the power to control ordinary people and both spy on them, and cheat them. Where it’s gone wrong for the schemers is solar panels etc dropping in price such that “going off grid” is actually feasible and now cost effective over less than twenty years. The words to put dred in any energy company cold caller and their paymasters are,

“Bog off, going off grid.”

Apparently the Utility companies are pushing to have “legislation” to stop “off grid” happening because of the massive amounts of money they make on “standing charges”.

ismael • March 15, 2024 11:08 AM

@JonKnowsNothing,

it was obvious that it was a full on tracking device marketed as a sports metering system.

My version required manual uploading of data to the company site.

How did they manage to make that a requirement? Presumably they’re not hiding the live data, because people would demand refunds pretty quickly. All I can think is that maybe it stopped working if you didn’t connect it for a few days?

Fully offline bicycle computers can still be found, if only in thrift stores etc. Though it seems they’ve been largely replaced by mobile phone apps. Presumably there are also one or two of those that respect users’ privacy. A well-placed phone could probably even detect pedaling rates via accelerometer; I don’t know whether they do, as I’ve never really bothered.

In terms of road safety, even in the central areas of large cities there are usually acceptable roads to be found—if one can get to them safely. But not the kind where large groups can move at maximum speed; it might be best to forget roads and look into reserving a paved sports track for that (or show up and hope it’s free of joggers or dog-walkers, which in my area is unlikely to happen before dark). Or, since most collisions happen at intersections, look for a long section of road without many. Around here, that’d be a rural road with paved shoulders; elsewhere, it might be the shoulder of a freeway (which sounds ironic, but they’re sometimes legal to bike on, and are perfectly safe except when mixing with automotive traffic at ramps; statistically, even the ramps are not terrible compared to city roads).

Rolling darkout • March 15, 2024 2:52 PM

JonKnowsNothing,

Sure, bikes used for sport often have trackers, but most cycling is done for transport and is largely tracker free, apart from rideshare bikes and phones carried by the riders. I see estimates for more than 1 billion bikes existing, while sports cycling seems largely a thing in wealthy countries. Yeah, the strava heatmap cia camp was fun. Top secret jogging! 🙂

ismael,

Using a GPS bike computer without online tracking is still easy enough: Use for instance a Garmin Edge unit. Don’t connect it to a phone. Don’t register with Garmin’s service. Don’t connect it to wifi. Transfer ride files via USB to your private computer, and use local offline software to view them. (Extra paranoia points for not using wireless speed/cadence sensors either.)

Clive,

Possible, but there are warnings from telecom autorities about communication units in elevators and other non-consumer stuff having to be replaced or stop functioning, so it seems they really are turning 2G off. But most say “during 2025” while they say April 2024 about the Nissans, so it could be a staggered / gradual shutdown. 3G is already gone here, so it’s 4+G only from then on.

emily's post • March 16, 2024 12:04 PM

@ Clive Robinson

behind the track

Although that has been suggested, the overall poetry of the song makes it seem intrinsically unlikely (which also agrees with statements by the artists).

E.g.

And the blue lights shining with a heavenly grace, help you right on by
…
And it’s four o’clock in the morning and all of the people have gone away
Just you and your mind and Lake Shore Drive, tomorrow is another day
And the sunshine’s fine in the morning time, tomorrow is another day

For those that have driven it, these lines apply with even more completeness to Pacific Coast Highway (PCH, US Route 101).

And the ultimate authority on night drives, Lemmy Caution in Alphaville

Alpha 60 : Do you know what illuminates the night?
Lemmy Caution : Poetry.

Paul Sagi • March 18, 2024 3:30 AM

Clive,

Since you commented on the trend that increasingly we seem to not actually own the products we pay for, the manufacturers retain control of the products, I’ll explain there is a way to reverse that trend.

Manufacturers retain control to increase their profit, if retaining control can be made unprofitable, the manufacturers will cease retaining control.

John Deere forbade farmers from repairing their tractors, which as far as the farmers were aware, the farmers owned.

There has been a ‘right to repair’ movement and some related court cases.

Because the manufacturers retain control, the purchaser (purchase is not the correct term) of a product does not receive legal title to the product and own the product. Despite that, purchasers (consumers) are expected to pay for product repairs.

That is unfair and it’s clear that to reverse the trend, a manufacturer must give a ‘forever warranty’ and do all repairs without charge if the manufacturer wants to retain control. That will achieve the goal of making it unprofitable for a manufacturer to retain control.

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