TimH November 10, 2023 10:02 AM

A disaster in USA. In EU, GDPR disallows a lot of this (without explicit permissions).

And then we have the vehicle event recorders… wonder if that just-passed right to repair law (in one state) will require access to that, even if just read-only?

AL November 10, 2023 12:16 PM

So, I’m supposed to use hands-free and not text while driving. But, if I use hands-free, my conversation is recorded by the car manufacturer.

Maybe it’s just me, but I think there is a public interest in shutting this eavesdropping down way ahead of any concern with things like Tik-Toc. We have a priority problem with our government these days.

iAPX November 10, 2023 1:52 PM

I never connected my smartphone to a vehicle. Never.
Worst case being a rented vehicle, that’s in automotive world the equivalent of a bareback gang-bang of personal informations in a backroom!

In a world where commodity trumps security and privacy, we have to refuse the first to protect the others.
While we are expected the inverse, and notably have connected 4G/5G cars, that transmit everything we do, where we are, where we go, our contacts, our calls, and everything available to their (and ours) masters.

This is tiresome, this should be regulated, heavily regulated.
We all need to be protected by law, that’s why laws exists.

emily’s post November 10, 2023 1:54 PM

Feature creep of creepy features.

And if the car is “electric”, are you signing away your legal rights regarding harms from the EM bath you are daily immersed in, the extent of which has not yet been discovered or perhaps disclosed?

Winter November 10, 2023 2:44 PM

@emily’s post

EM bath

For half a century now I am promised a horrible death from exposure to “EM radiation” [1]. But living under power lines and enthousiastic use of mobile phones and computers did not help. Still not a horrible death in sight. Same for the people around me who are still alive and kicking. So, when do you all deliver on your promise?

[1] Somehow, this does not include sunlight and sun’s UV. Meanwhile the latter does cause thousands of horrible deaths each year (month?). And UV is the main cause of wrinkles.

JonKnowsNothing November 10, 2023 3:09 PM

@Winter, @emily, All

re: Radiation Baths

While it may not happen to you, radiation is connected to a lot of illnesses. All sorts. All exposures. Tiny, large, huge, overwhelming.

Some die and some don’t die quite yet.

I know of people exposed to the full force of Chernobyl. I encourage them to tell their MD about this, since it can take a long time for anything to happen; including never. No USA MD seems to be in the slightest bit interested; they are betting on never coming after something more common sooner.

I would not recommend anyone stand in front of a Chernobyl while it was spewing radiation like it did around Europe, simply because my friends have not had any problems – yet.

fwiw: personal anecdote tl;dr

When cellphones first came out and were more luggable than a car battery, I had one of the long cellphone sticks. I kept in in a designed cell phone belt pocket. For a long time, I noticed a “discomfort” where the antenna was, which was pointed slightly off my body.

Surprise was, when the new cell phones came out that were pocket sized, I dumped my phone stick into the museum box, and the discomfort disappeared.

Totally unsupported anecdote, no scientific value whatsoever, but I do not carry my cell phone in a belt pocket anymore.


JonKnowsNothing November 10, 2023 3:20 PM

@Winter, @emily, All

re: living under power lines

iirc(badly) a Farming Story

A dairy farmer had a milk cows die suddenly. Necropsy did not find anything specific about the cause of death. Periodically although rarely a cow would die. Nothing found.

There were high tension wires over the barn where the cows came in at night.

The farmer contacted the electric company which said there was no way their power lines could cause the cow to die.

There was investigation, litigation, more investigation and more litigation over the loss of the cows.

After a long period of searching, the result was that a dry or wet lightening strike on the power lines transferred into the ground and the unfortunate cow standing in the wet spot in the barn got electrocuted.

The electric company changed the configuration of the power lines around the farm.


emily’s post November 10, 2023 3:50 PM

@ Winter @ JonKnowsNothing

Re: Are you sitting comfortably ?

Further to

While it may not happen to you, radiation is connected to a lot of illnesses. All sorts. All exposures. Tiny, large, huge, overwhelming.

A chief scientist at an petroleum energy corporation said in a lecture some decades ago that there is no non-zero safe level of petrochemical exposure. A single molecule is carcinogenic, mutagenic, and teratogenic. The biological system may be up to the threat at whatever exposure level it meets, but it may not.

The body is marvelously sensitive to EM fields. One could expect that there is again no safe level.

The medical statistics of the situation of the population operating EVs everywhere all the time are probably not understood.

JonKnowsNothing November 10, 2023 4:47 PM

@Winter, @emily, All

re: Exposure and Distribution

There are some recent interest in tracking how certain industries, manufacturing, industrial production is allocated within a particular geographic environment.


The predominant location for these industries is not in The High Rent Districts. They are placed in Low Income Districts. Sometimes the local population gets jobs but for the most part they do not. It’s a common practice and can be traced through a number of decades, including in modern times.

  • No one is putting an Amazon Warehouse next to MarkZ’s home in Palo Alto.
  • No one is putting a waste treatment plant near ElonM homes or non-homes since he is a couch surf spong.
  • No one is putting a nuclear waste long haul storage next to BillGates home.

The residual harm is visited on the poor, under-employed, under-paid, elderly that remain in the area.

No one visiting Chemical Row in Texas could possibly not smell it. Officially the nose-doesn’t-know.

Clive Robinson November 10, 2023 5:04 PM

@ Winter, emily’s post, ALL,

“Somehow, this does not include sunlight and sun’s UV.”

Look up the difference between ionizing and non-ionizing radiation.

Further consider magnitude of any energy radiation. Some level keeps you warm, whilst higher levels causes things to be hot, and if only a little above body heat starts to cook.

By evolution living biological systems have developed ways to deal with this excess heat, thus we can live and function in 50C and for times a little higher.

There is nothing particularly magic in it.

As for direct radiative effects, we know many chemicals that come under “organic chemistry” break down in ordinary “visable light” without having to be in the various UV bands. The effect is small but over many years many plastics for instance are broken down.

The thing is the human body suffurs the same issue, but it’s constantly dying and replacing chemicals by synthesizing new ones.

As long as the bodies repair functions work, esspecially the parts to do with error correction we survive. However at some point an error will get in and get reproduced, and that is when things go wrong. What it takes to cause an error correction failure is something that is under active investigation in many labs around the world.

We also know that you can overwhelm the error correction system. The energy in UV-C destroys surface level DNA and RNA very quickly thus gives us the “anti-pathogenic” properties it has on viri, bacteria, and phages. The human body in part solves this by having layers of dead skin on the surface held there by lipids.

So an argument could be made that the use of soap and similar that causes those dead protective cells to be removed faster is not a good idea as it decreases your protection from sunlight and the higher frequencies.

As far as I’m aware nobody has yet done research into “cleanliness and cancer”. However research has been done on drivers and cancer… And it varies in “handedness” depending on which side the driving position is.

That is the parts of the body that face the windows where high angle sun can strike the body are more likely to be where cancers appear than other parts of the body.

The problem is that of those types of cancer they are all to often very easy to undergo metastasis. Which is the process where, some cells break away from the initial cancer site “primary tumour” and travel to another place in the body via one of the circulatory systems like the bloodstream.

One area of current research is how to stop metastasis, thus the cancer spreading. Thus at the very least improving life expectancy.

But the sad fact is human death by biological aging is kind of like tossing a coin. With Dementia being one face, and cancer the obverse. There will always be a few who get the rim effect and I guess that will increase as we get cancer and dementia causes sorted out and removed from our environment.

But honestly as an engineer who has suffered genuine RF burns and worked in electromagnetic fields as strong if not stronger than you get in Nuclear Magnetic Resonance Imaging”(NMRI) systems… I’m over the half century in that swamp and so far no noticable ill effects.

As for EV’s the fields are to be honest very low frequency thus the wavelengths are very long. We do know that the efficiency of a radiator is related to it’s size or loop area compared to the wavelength. Thus personal EV’s are not very efficient at radiating any EM fields they generate.

But for those “Where paranoia destroy yer” consider trains and other public transportation systems. Over all they can be quite large, if you consider the length of a train it could easily be an effective halfwave radiator down in the frequencies used by “series resonant” Switched Mode Regulators 😉

But seriously electromagnetic fields in the longer wavelengths are nothing new, nature has been saturating the Earth’s surface with them for more time than there has been known life on it. Arguably as such it may have created life.

DB November 10, 2023 6:58 PM

How is the car going to get your “sexual orientation, sexual activity, health diagnosis data, and genetic information”?

Clive Robinson November 10, 2023 9:20 PM

@ DB,

“How is the car going to get your”

By the usual two step method,

1, Direct measurements
2, Inference from measurands

Take body temprature, it varies from person to person and for women it has a cyclical variation around every four weeks.

The “heat sensor” for seat heating will measure that with sufficient accuracy when crossed with the ambient heat sensor.

To follow the cycle the car needs to know that an individual is driving… With electric assist for seating position set up for the press of a key fob the car has a distinquisher against which it can establish your sex.

Other sensors measure other things from which inferences can be made.

And lets be honest, way to many people put way way to much information in text messages be they just SMS text, or including pictures etc.

Remember the issues with Alexa having the mic on all the time?

Well have a look at all the stuff OnStar and similar record…

They can probably infrance from it when you break wind or scratch your backside and even if you are hungry.

emily’s post November 11, 2023 9:17 AM

Re: biology and EM

Some interesting research by Szent-Gyorgi, Becker, and others on the effects of electricity and EM in biological processes including healing of nerve tissue is outlined in [1].

  1. Becker, Robert. The Body Electric. Morrow, New York 1985

Clive Robinson November 11, 2023 10:27 AM

@ emily’s post,

“on the effects of electricity and EM in biological processes including healing of nerve tissue”

It’s not exactly unexpected, nearly all base biological processes can be shown to have some response to DC and LF AC currents, and we know from NMRI and microwave ovens basic organic molecules with oxygen in them like -OH tails resonate in VHF and above EM fields.

The increased healing effects from IR heating of deep flesh and bones where sprains and strains have caused insult, are fairly well documented and standard treatments.

From observational and some clinical testing it’s known that the likes of TENS can increase the bodies production of natural pain killers.

However other claims are not supported by documentation, sufficiently large observational trials, or double blind trials.

And it’s not helped in that respect for two basic reasons,

1, Trials are eye wateringly expensive to run.
2, There is no profit –in fact the opposit– for drug companies and the like to run such trials.

If you want to see a historical perspective on this look up “stomach ulcers” and how out of patent anti-biotics killed a faux market for very expensive ant-acid drugs (which the drugs companies are still pushing, but this time to protect the stomach from all the blood thinners like aspirin that get proflacticaly prescribed to prevent cardiovascular thrombosis, and strokes).

Winter November 11, 2023 10:36 AM

@emily’s post

electricity and EM in biological processes

Electricity != EM

For EM to affect biological systems (any system) it must first deposit energy in such a system. That means that the EM must be able to be absorbed by molecules (IR, light, UV, Xray) or be converted to electrical voltages and currents (radio waves). The former are well known and have nothing to do with the latter.

The ability of radio waves to generate electrical currents in bags of dirty water (biological objects) is not great. If they could, we would be able to sense them as we can sense electrical currents with great sensitivity. But we cannot sense radio waves at all. In contrast, humans are well able to sense IR, light, and UV.

As nerves are all about chemo-electrical currents it will not be a suprise that electrical currents have effects on their physiology.

Winter November 11, 2023 1:18 PM

@emily’s post

As for EM there is [1].

The link provides conflicting information, both writing about evidence and refutations. Looking at some papers, they hypothetise about effects of EM pulses on calcium channels. It is all very vague and non committing. For something with so many health claims, it seems extremely difficult to show an effect.

The message I get is that it is widely used, not very effective (adjuvant therapy), and evidence is vague. So it might work, and it might work by opening calcium channels.[1]

But if it works, all reports are positive. It is universally considered good and people use it as a wellness device. So why are people then complaining about EM fields in cars and from mobiles? If it reduces depression and speeds up wound healing, they should welcome any EM fields they encounter.

So why are people afraid of EM fields and at the same time paying good money for EM treatment?

[1] What worries me is the lack of side effects. If something messes with calcium channels in my body , I would be very careful.

emily’s post November 11, 2023 1:51 PM

@ Winter

why are people then complaining about EM fields in cars and from mobiles?

Wondering about frequency, dosage etc. ?

Winter November 12, 2023 4:07 AM

@emily’s post

Wondering about frequency, dosage etc. ?

If you know about those, you know the whole EM thing has less substance than hot air.

Missing the Point November 13, 2023 6:46 PM

The Mozilla piece and the industry conversation are tragically missing the most important element.

Modern vehicles are built with embedded cellular modems – ones that can’t be put in “airplane mode”, killswitched, put in a faraday bag, unpowered, or simply left at home.

This means that the vehicle has multiple unique identifiers (IMEI, ISMI, etc) leave a high precision trace of the driver of the vehicle where-ever they go. Even if the owner leaves their cellular phone home and carries cash with them, the vehicle will keep a permanent record of everywhere they have gone.

This privacy violations is orders more significant than the relatively minor concerns enumerated by Mozilla.

Furthermore there does not exist a mitigation for this privacy violation. There is no way to not use a feature of a car (e.g. bluetooth or whatever). Opting out of precision real time physical tracking and leaving a permanent record is tantamount to not using the vehicle.

Gert-Jan November 14, 2023 7:01 AM

Modern vehicles … can’t be put in “airplane mode” …

This privacy violations is orders more significant than the relatively minor concerns enumerated by Mozilla.

I don’t think so. Just because one privacy aspect is problematic, that doesn’t mean all security should be abandoned. Or that other privacy concerns shouldn’t be addressed.

For example, the Mozilla piece questions whether some car brand properly encrypt the data they transfer. Also, in Europe, due to the GDPR regulation, wihtout explicit user consent (which can’t be mandated) information gathered for purpose A cannot be used for purpose B. This relates to the obscene reselling of user information and (potential) reselling of the car telemetry.

Why are those other aspects important? Not only because they can be abused by other parties for other purposes, but also because it is quite imaginable that a car is not permanently associated with an owner. Think of a pure rental model, or a pool of cars owned by a pool of owners.

If you travel by plane, you should assume that the exact timing and location of the plane is tracked all the time. In such case, the information about whether you were on the plane is the privacy sensitive part. And how your data is stored the security part. And how it is resold or funneled to government agencies another privacy part.

Cars with driverless capability will change this dynamic even more, because they may be traveling without anyone in the car, and even in some cases without the permission of the owner.

Briana November 14, 2023 1:17 PM

Modern vehicles are built with embedded cellular modems – ones that can’t be … killswitched, … unpowered

Maybe that depends what one means by “modern”. There are certainly non-ancient cars for which people have worked out which fuse to pull to disable the modem without major side-effects (some of the minor systems, they might go off, but nothing that’ll get you eaten by dinosaurs).

JoeAllenRules November 19, 2023 1:52 PM

Smartphone is NOT a phone.
It is a dangerous Trojan horse.
A smartphone is a Track-Trace-Surveil tool for Governments / Corporations.
This surveillance device just happens to have a “phone” function so that you will willingly allow it to Track-Trace-Surveil your life.

The “phone” apps like Tic-Toc should NEVER be allowed in the USA. Why is this allowed on US military bases? (Same reason CCP is allowed to buy land next to US bases and to buy American farm lan? Why?)
This Tic-Toc “app” is a tool of CCP psychological-emotional BRAINWASHING of an entire generation. It is also a data funnel for CCP intel.

Now automobiles serve as both of the above stated FACTS. Todays automobiles are a Track-Trace-Surviel device for Governments / Corporations that just happen to have a trojan horse transportation function so you will willingly use them.

That is why I use Elephants, Camels, Dog pulled Sleds by land and for air travel giant Eagles with saddels, or Pegasus for transportation. By sea I find that dolphins, giant sea horses work.

For communication smoke signals, tin cans with a string between, or Pigeons are mostly secure.

Doubt this post is allowed but there it is.
Truth is often silenced by tyrants.
And control freaks don’t enjoy humor.

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