The AI Dividend

For four decades, Alaskans have opened their mailboxes to find checks waiting for them, their cut of the black gold beneath their feet. This is Alaska’s Permanent Fund, funded by the state’s oil revenues and paid to every Alaskan each year. We’re now in a different sort of resource rush, with companies peddling bits instead of oil: generative AI.

Everyone is talking about these new AI technologies—like ChatGPT—and AI companies are touting their awesome power. But they aren’t talking about how that power comes from all of us. Without all of our writings and photos that AI companies are using to train their models, they would have nothing to sell. Big Tech companies are currently taking the work of the American people, without our knowledge and consent, without licensing it, and are pocketing the proceeds.

You are owed profits for your data that powers today’s AI, and we have a way to make that happen. We call it the AI Dividend.

Our proposal is simple, and harkens back to the Alaskan plan. When Big Tech companies produce output from generative AI that was trained on public data, they would pay a tiny licensing fee, by the word or pixel or relevant unit of data. Those fees would go into the AI Dividend fund. Every few months, the Commerce Department would send out the entirety of the fund, split equally, to every resident nationwide. That’s it.

There’s no reason to complicate it further. Generative AI needs a wide variety of data, which means all of us are valuable—not just those of us who write professionally, or prolifically, or well. Figuring out who contributed to which words the AIs output would be both challenging and invasive, given that even the companies themselves don’t quite know how their models work. Paying the dividend to people in proportion to the words or images they create would just incentivize them to create endless drivel, or worse, use AI to create that drivel. The bottom line for Big Tech is that if their AI model was created using public data, they have to pay into the fund. If you’re an American, you get paid from the fund.

Under this plan, hobbyists and American small businesses would be exempt from fees. Only Big Tech companies—those with substantial revenue—would be required to pay into the fund. And they would pay at the point of generative AI output, such as from ChatGPT, Bing, Bard, or their embedded use in third-party services via Application Programming Interfaces.

Our proposal also includes a compulsory licensing plan. By agreeing to pay into this fund, AI companies will receive a license that allows them to use public data when training their AI. This won’t supersede normal copyright law, of course. If a model starts producing copyright material beyond fair use, that’s a separate issue.

Using today’s numbers, here’s what it would look like. The licensing fee could be small, starting at $0.001 per word generated by AI. A similar type of fee would be applied to other categories of generative AI outputs, such as images. That’s not a lot, but it adds up. Since most of Big Tech has started integrating generative AI into products, these fees would mean an annual dividend payment of a couple hundred dollars per person.

The idea of paying you for your data isn’t new, and some companies have tried to do it themselves for users who opted in. And the idea of the public being repaid for use of their resources goes back to well before Alaska’s oil fund. But generative AI is different: It uses data from all of us whether we like it or not, it’s ubiquitous, and it’s potentially immensely valuable. It would cost Big Tech companies a fortune to create a synthetic equivalent to our data from scratch, and synthetic data would almost certainly result in worse output. They can’t create good AI without us.

Our plan would apply to generative AI used in the US. It also only issues a dividend to Americans. Other countries can create their own versions, applying a similar fee to AI used within their borders. Just like an American company collects VAT for services sold in Europe, but not here, each country can independently manage their AI policy.

Don’t get us wrong; this isn’t an attempt to strangle this nascent technology. Generative AI has interesting, valuable, and possibly transformative uses, and this policy is aligned with that future. Even with the fees of the AI Dividend, generative AI will be cheap and will only get cheaper as technology improves. There are also risks—both every day and esoteric—posed by AI, and the government may need to develop policies to remedy any harms that arise.

Our plan can’t make sure there are no downsides to the development of AI, but it would ensure that all Americans will share in the upsides—particularly since this new technology isn’t possible without our contribution.

This essay was written with Barath Raghavan, and previously appeared on Politico.com.

Posted on July 7, 2023 at 7:11 AM74 Comments

Comments

Winter July 7, 2023 7:39 AM

The AI Dividend

One of the more intelligent ideas around this question. The same kind of Sovereign Wealth Fund arrangements can be found in Norway and Gulf states.

They always said Information was the New Oil. This idea follows this through to its logical conclusion.

Would Americans do it? In the current dysfunctional times, I think they rather give it to a billionaire than share it with everyone.

Ted July 7, 2023 8:05 AM

The lawsuit against OpenAI drafted a slight variation of the AI Dividend under its prayer for relief. It’s requesting:

#8: the establishment of an “AI Monetary Fund” to compensate class members for past and ongoing misconduct as a percentage of gross revenues

#9: the appointment of a third-party admin to distribute “data dividends”

Andy July 7, 2023 8:06 AM

My fear is that the proposal will simply generate salaries and budgets for the agency and nothing of value for the average user — just like those class action lawsuits which send letters, only the lawyers and maybe the main plaintiffs make the money. Why not force AI companies to make the extracted data publicly accessible?

Ian July 7, 2023 8:14 AM

The internet is not limited solely to the USA. The data set used to generate the AI models is not purely of US origin, so why would the payout of royalties be limited to Americans however you would like to define that term.

Duchess Gloriana XII of Grand Fenwick July 7, 2023 8:20 AM

While this in theory is an interesting idea, does anyone reading this genuinely think that fruits of this new technology will in any way be shared with the citizenry?

I submit to you that the benefits of AI will be monopolized by the predator class in the same way big tech monopolizes the internet, agrobiz monopolizes food and medical giants monopolize health. At the end of the day I think the likelyhood is that AI will be used to further the surveliance-society agenda and not much else.

I invite you all to argue against the above.

The Mad Hatter July 7, 2023 8:46 AM

Completely impractical, but an interesting contribution to the conversation.

A few immediate thoughts….

If an AI company uses my uncopyrighted works, why should I get any compensation at all? If I write a book and place it in the public domain, I have no right to royalties from someone who publishes and sells it, do I?

How much money would this actually generate? At $0.0001 per word and 330 million Americans, AI would have to generate 3.3 trillion words in a year for me to get a $10 check (probably closer to $4 after the ENORMOUS processing costs). So what?

If this doesn’t absolve AI companies of copyright violations, why would they participate at all?

Winter July 7, 2023 8:59 AM

@The Mad HAtter

If an AI company uses my uncopyrighted works, why should I get any compensation at all?

All works are copyrighted the moment they are made public. Some works cannot get copyright by law, but that is just a USA aberration with little consequence.

If I write a book and place it in the public domain,

There is no legal way to do that. You can put on a license that allows unrestricted use, but the work is still copyrighted.

Dinah July 7, 2023 9:03 AM

What does this mean for social media platforms where their weasel-worded EULAs say: you created it but this belongs to us now. Is this exempted because it “belongs” to Facebook, twitter, etc? or is it not exempted because it was created by all of us? This is by no means an edge case.

blurk July 7, 2023 9:46 AM

I’ve enjoyed reading this blog for many, many years now. But this piece is the first one I’ve been particularly outraged by and the I think the first one I’ve been compelled to comment on. Ian has already made this point above but it bears repeating: the theft of data underlying all the model training isn’t solely “American”. Why are Americans the only people worthy of the proposed dividend? That proposal is just perpetuating the thievery.

I’m disappointed.

(Yes, I know it’s totally impractical to organise this concept worldwide. But really, the cultural imperialism here is just beyond the pale.)

Pavel Šimon July 7, 2023 9:56 AM

Quite nice idea. But AI content was made on English language, not Americans contenet. Even foreing (better said another) languages were used.

Reward can not be limited only on Americans.

Scott July 7, 2023 10:33 AM

To the commenters asking why the compensation is limited to US Citizens. I believe the answer is in the 10th paragraph – “Other countries can create their own versions, applying a similar fee to AI used within their borders.”

The author proposes an American solution. Why would you want the US government and US court system to mandate how a Danish/Peruvian/Egyptian/Japanese/etc. citizen gets compensated for the use of their data? As I understand what’s written here, this would apply to Generative AI in the US much like GPDR applies to customer data on European servers.

I’ve only read what’s written here, so I may be wrong. But the US proposing something that only applies to US citizens seems appropriate to me.

Clive Robinson July 7, 2023 10:46 AM

@ Bruce, ALL,

Re : Who purchased,and where did the money come from?

“Alaskans have opened their mailboxes to find checks waiting for them, their cut of the black gold beneath their feet.”

They do not own Alaska or what’s under it.

Alaska was “purchased” from “Russia” by the US Treasury on the 1st August in 1867, for $7.2 million. But where did the money come from?

That is who were the original “share holders” and why have they had their dividend stolen from them?

Which brings us to,

“Big Tech companies are currently taking the work of the American people, without our knowledge and consent, without licensing it, and are pocketing the proceeds.”

Point of order, the work is not just of “American people” it almost certainly contains work I hold copyright to and I’m not a citizen of any continental American country or federated state.

So why should I be excluded from any benifit?

I’m sure quite a few other regulars to this blog would feel likewise.

Robin Hoodwinked July 7, 2023 11:00 AM

@Winter, @The Mad HAtter
Still a valid point. When people specifically license their work such that unrestricted use is allowed, why should AI companies have to pay for it? No-one else would need to. Surely the AI companies’ lawyers would raise this point. It’s a small fraction of the data, but lawyer food none the less.

Or perhaps they WOULDN’T raise it, specifically because, if we’re going to take data lisensing into account, they’d also have to find ways to comply with the various terms of licenses that DO put restrictions on use. That becomes an impossible minefield for an AI content crawler to deal with.

Media companies, however, would have reason to raise it. They’ve already tried to get search engines to pay for the little snippets of text they use in their search results when linking to e.g. news articles. AI uses ALL the text and other content. So professional content creators would want a very substantial slice of the pie, if such a pie were to be made. And they employ more lawyers than public interest groups, I’m sure.

Sure, the idea of public compensation for public works sounds nice, but I have a hard time imagining it actually happening, especially in a corporate / plutocrat controlled nation like the USA. EU would be more likely.

Anonymous July 7, 2023 11:20 AM

“taking the work of the American people”

[sarc] So that’s why I can’t query ChatGPT in Dutch? [/sarc]

Chelloveck July 7, 2023 11:23 AM

@Ian, @blurk, et al: That was my first thought too, that the dividends belong to people worldwide, not just Americans. Unfortunately due to the lack of any world government there would be no way to draft a world-wide law to this effect. By the very nature of laws it must be enacted by individual countries. The article even alludes to this: “Our plan would apply to generative AI used in the US. It also only issues a dividend to Americans. Other countries can create their own versions, applying a similar fee to AI used within their borders.” (Emphasis added.) Ideally under this scheme an international treaty would be arranged by which signatories would share the burden of enforcement and distribution of the monies collected.

I dislike this plan for other reasons. I don’t think there’s any effective way to meter the output of generative AI. It’s on the road to becoming ubiquitous, and as machines get more powerful and models get more refined we’re not going to have a small number of AI “oracles” that we can track. Every PC, phone, tablet, and other piece of computing equipment will include some form of built-in AI capability. The best you could do is tax the developers of the models according to the revenue created by those models. But what about the inevitable open-source models? A fraction of zero revenue is zero.

How does this scheme account for malicious actors? Bing has added AI to their search. What would stop a cabal of pranksters from flooding it with queries, each query designed to increment the dividend odometer? It’s a DDoS attack with both activist (bankrupt the Evil Big Tech company) and personal financial (rack up those points, increase your own dividend) impact.

At this point I’m more inclined to do nothing and watch while language models start training on their own output and disappear into an ouroboros of model collapse.

Winter July 7, 2023 11:26 AM

@Robin

When people specifically license their work such that unrestricted use is allowed, why should AI companies have to pay for it?

When they can show which part of their training materials are CC or rights free, then that can be subtracted from the total.

The point is, it will cost them more to find out which sources are “free” than they would have to pay.

Medo July 7, 2023 12:55 PM

A $0.001 fee per word is not tiny. If OpenAI had to pay this and passed it on to its users in turn, API pricing for gpt-3.5-turbo-8k would increase by a factor of 350. Not 350%, it would be 350 times as much cost to use the API.

Winter July 7, 2023 1:12 PM

@Medo

A $0.001 fee per word is not tiny.

The price is not on the training input, but on the AI output. At least, that is how I read it.

From the OP:

When Big Tech companies produce output from generative AI that was trained on public data, they would pay a tiny licensing fee,

Winter July 7, 2023 1:13 PM

@modem

Yes, get everyone on the payroll, what could possibly go wrong ?

The same that went wrong in Alaska?

Robin Hoodwinked July 7, 2023 1:32 PM

@Winter
They could argue that precisely because this is impossible / unreasonably difficult to find out, the whole dividend scheme is… unconstitutional? or whatever legal lever they can find to pull. Given the amount of lawyering and lobbying the biggest companies are able to pay for, that might be all they need. We’ll see. It could be worth fighting for, anyway.

It reminds me of the fee-and-dividend scheme suggested instead of regular carbon taxation. Pay according to emissions (e.g. per liter of fuel bought), and then the money is handed back to the people, the same amount to everyone.

Winter July 7, 2023 1:34 PM

@Robin

They could argue that precisely because this is impossible / unreasonably difficult to find out, the whole dividend scheme is… unconstitutional?

Copyright law is constitutional and therefore, they should pay all the copyright holders.

lurker July 7, 2023 1:54 PM

@Bruce

Great idea, but,

there is just so much wrong with the idea that the internet is an American invention, so belongs to America. If this is true, then please take your parts of it back to America, keep it there, and let the rest of us run our own internet without you.

modem phonemes July 7, 2023 2:11 PM

@ Winter

went wrong

They will have a hook into you. All these payment schemes have the potential to become indentured servitude. The mere fact of payment does not imply political goods are addressed.

Winter July 7, 2023 2:36 PM

@modem

All these payment schemes have the potential to become indentured servitude.

Like Alaska? Like Norway?

As for indenture servitude, what about student loans? Or food stamps? Health insurance?

modem phonemes July 7, 2023 3:09 PM

@ Winter

… what about …

Yes, all they and those things, potentially.

Medo July 7, 2023 4:33 PM

@Winter

> A $0.001 fee per word is not tiny.

The price is not on the training input, but on the AI output. At least, that is how I read it.

Correct.

OpenAI’s API pricing for gpt-3.5-turbo-4k is currently $0.002 per 1000 output tokens (roughly 750 output words). Even the much more expensive gpt4-8k model is only $0.06 per 1000 output tokens. The proposed dividend would be around $0.75 per 1000 output tokens.

Many use cases of these models involve generating a LOT more output than you actually end up using (e.g. reasoning step-by-step, tree of thoughts and similar. Also, just having an extended conversation with a chatbot or playing an AI Dungeon-style game could quickly get costly.

Winter July 7, 2023 4:41 PM

@modem

Yes, all they and those things, potentially.

So we are back to the root, taxes. Taxes are at the root of servitude, they even started out as “forced” labor (not as much “force” as tends to be argued by Libertarians).

But no taxes, no state, no roads, no police, no sewers, no water, no army, … . No taxes, no society.

That the US was built on servitude and slave labor is still visible in modern US politics and economics where forcing people to work is rather common, eg, in jail (~million) and meat factories during COVID. Then there is the whole debt industry that leeches of people caught in debt traps. Go study and spend a decade/decades paying off the debt.

The Cream July 7, 2023 5:28 PM

The authors heart is in the right place. But lets be honest, given the incredible disregard for peoples well being by those in charge in certain areas, as demonstrated by the pandemic, suggests certain states would no doubt commandeer certain classes of peoples checks to be used for “public projects”. After all, if said certain states cut pandemic benefits and social benefits to force people back to work for business profit, they wont abide the idea of those same lazy peons getting “free money”. Something Something Something Socialism/Communism

modem phonemes July 7, 2023 5:42 PM

@ Winter

taxes

There can be just taxes, but also the power to tax is the power to destroy. They have an intrinsic limiting principle: do they serve the common good ?

The purpose of government is justice, the good of the other. Handout schemes are basically socialist, of which there is never enough, and which of themselves tend to totalitarian rule, where justice is obliterated, because the “other” is obliterated being reduced to the illusory “common man”.

The sale of our data is a different but cooperating evil, the beginning of human trafficking. It should be illegal.

Fixed debt and fixed debt contract are usury. They too should be illegal, and once were. They should be replaced by joint risk sharing by all involved parties, accompanied with insurance. This provides a basis for activation of wealth and labor hence enterprise, without destruction of part of society by enforced assumption of all costs of failure.

Evil men have come to power at times in the USA. But the principles of the regime are basically good,!which in spite of evils, have aided political freedom and general prosperity, as witnessed by the fact that many come there for better lives and do achieve them.

Bcs July 7, 2023 11:31 PM

Anyone want to lay odds that if this were to happen, ChatGPT would get a lot less verbose? Why use $0.10 of words to say something that can be said with $0.05 worth?

Not that that would be a bad thing.

Clive Robinson July 8, 2023 12:39 AM

@ Bcs, ALL,

Re : Taxed to Death.

“Anyone want to lay odds that if this were to happen, ChatGPT would get a lot less verbose? “

Hmm let me think would ChatGPT go from,

“No tax without representation”

To

“Tax me not” or “No tax”

They just don’t have the same “ring” to them 😉

But as has been reported and demonstrated, ChatGPT has sofar unexplained “Brainfarts” where it just dumps a load of words (to it’s operators profit).

Now as that would mean rather more “tax” without reason it’s almost certain that “certain types” of people would get out the pitchforks and burning brands to protest… So the Drs Frankenstein will have to “fix their monsterous creation”.

As you note,

“Not that that would be a bad thing.”

Winter July 8, 2023 6:35 AM

@modem

The purpose of government is justice, the good of the other.

Only in a Republic, “Res Publica*. Monarchy and Capitalism are most definitely not interested in the “good of the other”

Handout schemes are basically socialist,

So what? Calling names does not create facts.

Giving people a hand is called civilization [1]. Only uncivilized people (barbarians) do not help the weak and needy.

It is curious that Americans see caring for others a vice that the government should discourage or even ban.

[1] ‘https://www.etymonline.com/word/Civilized

Winter July 8, 2023 6:41 AM

@modem

Handout schemes are basically socialist, of which there is never enough, and which of themselves tend to totalitarian rule, where justice is obliterated, because the “other” is obliterated being reduced to the illusory “common man”.

You mean like the socialism of the Nordic countries, or, eg, German socialists? The governments that hand out money to the needy?

They have done this since WWII or earlier. They are doing fine, thank you. Their people are much better off than Americans, mind you. They are also more free in every ranking of freedom, except the freedom to exploit others.

modem phonemes July 8, 2023 8:00 AM

@ Winter

Only in a Republic

The definitional essence of government is justice. Monarchies can also meet this criterion. If justice is not pursued, it’s not really a government, it’s gangsterism.

socialist

Names are formed to state the essence of facts.

Governments don’t give people a hand in general. It’s not part of their business, except in what are emergencies. But not as a general strategy. The job is only justice. There are no instances where any real good is accomplished if they step beyond this. In every case where this happens, society is placed on the road to totalitarianism. Your people’s free apartment (note: not really free) is ready, courtesy of comrade Stalin.

The good Samaritan gave aid out of the love of God, quite a different thing, with a different logic and properties, from a government policy.

On these issues, it is worth reading

Kolnai, Aurel. Privilege and Liberty and Other Essays in Political Philosophy. Lexington Books, 1999. ISBN 978-0739100776.

They are also more free in every ranking of freedom,

Sample of one: An highly educated academic, an acquaintance, who has lived in USA, Scandinavia, Germany, and Austria for many years, advised against moving to Europe; he said it is not at all free compared to the US. I was surprised because he is a confirmed leftist in politics.

But yes, the USA was always being corrupted by excessive love of the buck. But it is the failure to act politically on the basis of the principles of its constitution that is the real destructive and destroying force.

Winter July 8, 2023 8:59 AM

@modem

The definitional essence of government is justice.

In what universe? A government is not needed for justice. Justice as a practice existed thousands of years before governments.

@modem

Names are formed to state the essence of facts.

But Socialism is not coined for how Americans, you, use it. What Americans mean with “Socialism” is “Stalinism”. But Stalinism is the cult of Stalin. Socialism has nothing to do with Stalin.

@modem

Governments don’t give people a hand in general.

They often do. Actually, most governments do it one way or another, be it at a central level, be it at a local level. And for a loooong time, panem et circenses.

@modem

The job is only justice.

No need for a government. See above.

@modem

There are no instances where any real good is accomplished if they step beyond this.

You do not come around in the world much, do you? It really opens your eyes if you visit other countries. Sweden and Finland are really nice countries that. They speak English very well and are willing to discuss all the ins and outs of their political and economic systems.

@modem

In every case where this happens, society is placed on the road to totalitarianism.

Americans say this a lot, but after having such a system for 70+ years in the Netherlands, we are still further from totalitarianism than the USA. At least here women are not harassed by the state about their periods.

@modem

Your people’s free apartment (note: not really free) is ready, courtesy of comrade Stalin.

That bogeyman again. Stalin did not invent Marxism nor Leninism nor free housing. And if you can point out my countries similarities with Stalin’s USSR, I would be grateful.

Moreover, you do not get free housing is Europe, you might get social assistance which you can use to hire an apartment. As I wrote, we have had that for many decades and we still are more free than you Americans.

@modem

he said it is not at all free compared to the US.

Depends on what you want. I found the following answer the best:
‘https://www.quora.com/How-does-American-freedom-differ-from-European-freedom-Isn-t-freedom-all-in-your-head-What-can-you-actually-do-and-want-to-do-than-just-a-word-How-does-freedom-differ

This is obviously going to be a massive generalisation, and there are obviously exceptions.

American freedom is very much freedom FROM. Freedom from laws, government, taxes and other restrictions. The freedom from tyrants, the freedom from being forced to do anything, the freedom from regulation.

European freedom is very much the freedom TO DO anything- that’s why there is such a focus on giving everyone a fair start, everyone gets the same health care, schools, services, opportunities- but this costs money that everyone has to pay. Euros aren´t so sceptical of government or regulations, they see the Government more as a service institution that everyone pays into, so it flies.

To conclude:
@modem

But it is the failure to act politically on the basis of the principles of its constitution that is the real destructive and destroying force.

No, this has always been the case. America is also, and always has been, the land of slaves, the land of the prisons with 6% of people (men!) either in prison or under some kind of probation. America is also the country that uses its prison system to avoid having to give social assistance.

‘https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2023.html

denton scratch July 8, 2023 12:13 PM

Every few months, the Commerce Department would send out the entirety of the fund, split equally, to every resident nationwide.

It’s almost as if the only people on the planet who have written emails, articles, websites are from the USA, and that it’s entirely reasonable for this handout to be for US citizens only.

Other countries can create their own versions, applying a similar fee to AI used within their borders.

Oh, great! But:

Only Big Tech companies—those with substantial revenue—would be required to pay into the fund.

Hang on: how does the equivalent of The Commerce Department in Lithuania levy taxes on tech giants based in the USA? The USA would treat that as extraterritorial legislation, and wouldn’t enforce it. Also, I find it hard to imagine US tech giants setting up tax accounts with 150-odd different national tax regimes.

This is such a daft idea that I find it hard to believe that Bruce was a co-author. I assume he just lent his name to the byline, for whatever reason.

Erdem Memisyazici July 8, 2023 12:38 PM

Or maybe just don’t? I can’t stop people from processing personal data if I don’t even know that they have it but rather than paying me for it maybe they can just … not? Can we make that a law?

A Nonny Bunny July 8, 2023 2:51 PM

I’m not against universal basic income (or some variant thereof), but the reasoning in this essay seems rather flawed. Generative AI is not by definition based on learning from every scrap of data on the internet. That’s just currently the most convenient and abundant source of data, but it’s also for the most part crap data.

There’s a reason why we teach our children in school using a curated curriculum, and it’s not just that they can’t process all the data on the internet. Good information is easier to learn from. The same is true for machine learning. Teaching models using a carefully selected curriculum allows you to train smaller models with less data and get better result. As an example read the recent paper “textbooks are all you need”, and read up on data-centric AI in general.

The point being, that paying people a dividend because their data is being used works only as long as their data is being used. If some research group or company created a better training dataset from scratch (or as much “from scratch” as textbooks are), then this argument for an AI dividend goes out the window while all problems that generative AI might cause remain.

Steve July 9, 2023 11:20 AM

@Bruce:

Paying the dividend to people in proportion to the words or images they create would just incentivize them to create endless drivel, or worse, use AI to create that drivel. (Emphasis mine.)

And that would differ from most of the content on the Internet exactly how?

Petre Peter July 9, 2023 11:29 AM

Equality at birth is the biggest threat to freedom.
I want equality in front of the law.
Only after we have equality in front of the law, we can talk about AI dividend.

Winter July 9, 2023 12:59 PM

@Petre

Equality at birth is the biggest threat to freedom.

Please elaborate. I do not see the point.

JonKnowsNothing July 9, 2023 3:04 PM

@Winter, @Petre, All

re: Equality at birth v Equality at law

One might parse this in several interesting pathways.

1, At birth all humans are equally human. Other than specific genetic conditions, we are all equal.

The Un-Equal part comes after we are born. Lack of food, housing, education, job options, hostile conditions of war, climate and global changes all make us Un-Equal.

2, It is laws and changes in laws that make the Un-Equal situation worse. A simple change in USA makes 50+% of the population potentially criminal in almost half the USA. The same change in Poland had similar effect; while folks in Poland could just hop over the Jurisdiction Lines, the folks stuck in the BREXIT-UK cannot (N Ire v Rep Ire v UK). Currently in Israel the same sorts of changes are in progress.

It’s just a change, but it changes everything.

George Carlin did very good routines on the nature of Government, Business, and Rights, all common topics for his philosophy and humor.

  • You have NO RIGHTS. Rights cannot be taken away. If they can be taken away, then they are NOT RIGHTS.

Rights come from laws. I think @Petre has a good point.

Winter July 9, 2023 4:03 PM

@-

V.recent SCOTUS decisions detrimental to both equality and rights,

The Supremes are preparing new Jim Crow laws. Laws and practices are instituted that will make Americans unequal for the law.

@JonKnowsNothing
My question is why equality at birth is a threat to freedom?

Phillip July 9, 2023 5:01 PM

Actually, I believe public good is one argument to take measures of revenues from public data.

Here might be one scenario: Possibly, any AI rises to amassing collective blindspot data on enough citizens.

Just imagine any entity’s too-big-to-fail aftermath. If it does happen, we might call it the “Here Goes Nothing” fund.

Let’s at least measure something.

JonKnowsNothing July 9, 2023 9:55 PM

@Winter, @Petre, All

re: equality at birth is a threat to freedom?

I can only propose what I think it means.

If we consider Equality at Birth the only Equality, which is pretty much what we have today in varying degrees on the global, some being more equal than others; the problem is that after this Initial State of Equality that state can change. It’s a one time state at birth.

  • We are born in an Equal State
  • Laws change that State
  • The Laws remove Equality; you HAD IT and there for it was able to be Changed-Taken
  • The Laws rarely alter Un-Equal (see our current problems)

So the Laws take an Initial State and move it to Unequal; therefore you lose your Freedom because now by legal definition you no longer have what you were born with.

  • This Initial State is a One Time State; which you can never recover.

It’s a corollary to Reparations, especially Long Term Damage Reparations, the kind that covers generations. The proposals are for a One Time Payoff that expiates all damages and annuls all future claims for restitution.

So generational damage is paid off to 1-3 generations (current); yet the damage remains and the results of generation damage continues and there is no further recompense possible. It’s a locked deal, that benefits the current folks (which greatly need SOMETHING) but it does not actually compensate them for ALL the losses, past – current – future.

Our Birth Equality State is a One Time Payoff and then We Get Nothing. There is no opportunity for change because your status has been fixed as CLOSED.

Consider Historically:

  • One of the biggest drivers of war is plunder and slaves. Lots of free workers. Millions of people taken throughout history who were once Born Free in their own countries (sort of varies historically as to who actually was free) but spend the rest of their lives and children’s lives as slaves. The law changed their status from Free to Not Free. Being Freeborn was a much bigger target; like the harvesting Old Growth Forest.

In the USA we are considered “free at birth” and “citizens of the USA at birth”. Lots of countries do not have either of these conditions. Yet in the USA, “land of the free” we are not free and we are not equal in our freedom. Being born “free in the USA” is an impediment to true equality.

ResearcherZero July 10, 2023 4:00 AM

This essay was written with Barath Raghavan, and previously appeared on Politico.com

It was very probably written for an American audience, as Politico is an American publication…

…just as publications in other regions are directed at their respective audiences.

Winter July 10, 2023 4:12 AM

@JonknowsNothing, @Petre
re: equality at birth is a threat to freedom?

I seem to completely misunderstand the points you make. None of the explanations, comments, and suggestions seem to involve my basic question:

How can being born equal be a threat to freedom?

I simply cannot see any reason for the one threatening the other.

What am I missing?

Clive Robinson July 10, 2023 7:12 AM

@ Winter,

Re : Born free, die in Indentured servitude.

“How can being born equal be a threat to freedom?”

Because you are not looking at it from far enough back in history.

At any one time the pie is of a given size. If there are very few people then the pie is big enough for every one to have their fill. That was the state of Continental America just a couple of hundred years ago.

But your freedoms are not my freedoms and as history shows crop farmers and cattle Barons fought bloody wars for their respective freedoms, likewise over railways.

When I can not get the size slice of the pie I feel my freedoms entitle me to because of your freedoms… Then the “Might is Right” rule comes into play in the US in particular. The fact it’s nolonger bullets bombs and hired mobs taking your freedoms but back handers to legislators does not change the fact it’s still going on big time.

Have a look at US “Tuition debt”, the Australian “Robodebt” and much much more.

You will see that the “guard labour” you pay for with your taxes are not there for your protection, but to protect the self entitled and what they see as their entitlement from your freedoms. Your only purpose from the self entitleds view point is to be used, abused, and enslaved for life their benifit, not yours.

Thus your “birth right” is seen by them as a compleate threat to their “birth entitlement” (note the deliberate change of term for the same thing it’s important to cognative bias).

Oh and remember from their point of view “equity” equates to the “C Word” thus “steals from their entitlement” so is a crime from their perspective. They see themselves as entitled to the whole pie, not a slice, no matter how big the pie is, and you have rights to none of it no matter what you achieve.

Have a look at how George “Pólya’s Urn” works,

You have an equal number of coloured balls in the urn thus it starts at “equity” a “trial” happens where a ball is drawn, and the ball is returned to the urn. However a second part is that either N balls of the same colour are added –add rule–, or N balls of another colour are removed (sub rule).

Even when N is one there is nolonger equity in the urn, but also the odds are skewed such that, the colour drawn will be probably chosen in prefrence to the other in future trials.

Whilst the numbers are still near equal, chance appears to be the major factor and it all appears like a stochastic / random process when you see only the drawing. But eventually one colour will predominate with the other colour diminished to either a very small fraction (add rule) or non existant (sub rule).

“This endows the urn with a self-reinforcing property sometimes expressed as the rich get richer.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pólya_urn_model

For a more mathmatical view,

https://stats.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Probability_Theory/Probability_Mathematical_Statistics_and_Stochastic_Processes_(Siegrist)/12%3A_Finite_Sampling_Models/12.08%3A_Polya's_Urn_Process

Remember small dividends can give big dividends for just a few over time, if you don’t take care to cut them back. Because it’s not just blood “The tree of liberty needs to be refreshed”, but constant pruning if it is to remain in fair shape through the ages.

Winter July 10, 2023 1:26 PM

@Clive

Thus your “birth right” is seen by them as a compleate threat to their “birth entitlement”

So, the fact that other people want a life too that is a danger to my freedom to do whatever I want.

A psychopath’s definition of freedom.

JonKnowsNothing July 10, 2023 3:02 PM

@Winter, @Clive, All

re: the fact that other people want a life too that is a danger to my freedom to do whatever I want.

And so is born a 1,000 year war that looks to be going for another 1,000 years with eruptions every 50-100 years. This edition’s eruption appears to be setting up the next event much sooner.

There is a cooling off period in generational wars. Those that participated and survived have to die off, plus you have to rebuild a population which knows only the catch phrases.

  • “Over by Christmas” in 1914

Clive Robinson July 10, 2023 4:29 PM

@ Winter,

Re : It’s not a singular problem.

“A psychopath’s definition of freedom.”

Not “definition” but an actual “mode of behaviour” that is shall we say more obvious in some places than others. But it’s far from individuals in issolation hence the “One Percent” comments about them (even though it’s closer to 10-15% currently if certain people are to be taken as correct from the studies they’ve made).

@ JonKnowsNothing, Winter,

“with eruptions every 50-100 years”

Some sociologists have argued that it happens because of a shortage of women… Though I suspect this might be a symptom rather than a direct cause. That is women become increasingly scarce, and as a consequence they have more choice, especially in modern societies. Thus certain types of men do not get chosen, some very positively rejected and this we know causes pschological issues.

Others have argued it’s the “one man’s meat is another man’s poison” of a psychological dysfunction not unrelated to narcissism. Where some adolescents carry forward a desire to be seen as “heros”. It then comes down to which will reward them… being in the military, criminal organisation, or being a terrorist who sees themselves as a “Freedom Fighter” etc. Such people tend to remove themselves from the gene pool fairly young so “die back” and in all but standard “guard labour” have to build up to a critical mass in society.

It’s further argued that the cause of,

“This edition’s eruption appears to be setting up the next event much sooner.”

Is “globe spaning near anonymous communications” which the Internet and disposable mobile phones as “burners” alow to happen much more quickly. Where tiny fractions of any population, can build themselves up to being their own population group or even proto state in a chosen place simply by moving together by the freedom of modern transportation. You can see this discussed within academic debate around ISIS and the like.

But… The thing is these two theories are not mutually incompatible, in fact very nearly the opposite, they appear to go hand in hand.

But there is a third element that I’ve brought up in the past, and it’s the “Moral Compass Issue”. Strongly patriarchal societies have a very high “Do as I say when I say” regime, which does not encorage the growth of mores, morals, or ethics in the young which “Open Societies” need. Thus strongly patriarchal societies tend to be Closed Societies run almost by oppression or fear.

One issue is what happens when someone who has never developed a moral compass because their morals have been dictated not learned by experience, moves from a closed society to an open society? Such as going from a closely controled home environment to a nearly uncontroling environment such is found in Western Universities and higher education, where the student “lives away from home”.

Unsurprisingly there has been a high degree of “radicalisation” of all forms in such places. Normaly it is seen as part of growing up and finding your feet as you move into adulthood from adolescence. But what happens if you have not yet developed beyond childhood morally?

Many find the transition very hard, others never make it, and some unfortunatly become prey to those looking for them with their own evil intent in mind, who become replacment patriarchs and forefill a mental need in the vulnerable.

Mr. Peed Off July 10, 2023 4:57 PM

Please the libertarians and the socialists….repeal copyright laws.
What governments created, governments can take away. The corporations need to be reminded of that fact.

lurker July 10, 2023 5:16 PM

@Usual Suspects

人之初 性本善
性相近 习相远
苟不教 性乃迁
教之道 贵以专

In the beginning men are born naturally good.
From similar natures their characters diverge.
Without proper teaching their nature will deviate.
The way in teaching is to emphasise thoroughness.

First lines from the Three Character Classic, an alphabet/catechism taught in Chinese primary schools for nearly a thousand years up until 1949. Depending on the edition there may be up to 210 more lines of Confucian wisdom, all successfully avoiding the question of: Who teaches the teachers?

Phillip July 10, 2023 10:16 PM

@modem phonemes (8 JUL, 8 AM)
@Winter

A category of high-mindedness wherein any architecture of commerce is/were intrinsically perfect, because it is truly in the nature of things.

And we know this because:

“All of it is already codified within Insert-Favorite-Book-Here.”

Thus, there would be no reason to alter any preferred system of justice, either.

No thank you.

Clive Robinson July 11, 2023 12:23 AM

@ Winter,

You are probably making the first cup of the day of your favoured “devils brew” as I type this…

But to further answer your implied question by,

“So, the fact that other people want a life too that is a danger to my freedom to do whatever I want.”

An independent viewpoint made for a different reason but highlighting the “My entitlement v. Your rights” issue,

https://www.theregister.com/2023/07/10/ai_arms_race/

It would be both trite and unkind to say as a race we are just animals. But lets be honest the real reason it’s unkind is we just don’t find other creatures that behave worse than we humans do to each other… Yet the flip side is our ability to create societies for billions to grow develop and improve their lot in life.

Winter July 11, 2023 3:51 AM

@Clive, JonKnowsNothing

And so is born a 1,000 year war that looks to be going for another 1,000 years with eruptions every 50-100 years.

Shortage of women

Basically, it is young men not being able to marry.

I saw a prediction in the 1970’s or 1980’s that the rise of young muslims that did not earn enough to start a family would cause a rise of fascism (Islamic fundamentalism is the local form of fascism). It happened as predicted.

Youth unemployment does the same everywhere. Young people not able to start a family is a well tested recipe for revolutionary chaos. Criminals is mainly young men 15-25yoa, until they get a family and most settle down.

This is compounded by the fact that women have a choice nowadays. Some classical male traits have become a liability, and rather than change their behavior, some groups of men rather want to force women.

To summarize: Youth unemployment is not just market failure, it is juggling hand grenades.

modem phonemes July 11, 2023 8:52 PM

As remarked earlier, when data is one’s private production, use of that data by others is human trafficking. Even if one is offered payment for that use, it remains trafficking if there is no option to refuse. Even with the option, so that one is entering employment, if the use made of the data is improper, it is trafficking.

Such things should be made illegal, and may already be capable of being found to be illegal.

modem phonemes July 12, 2023 9:23 AM

@ Winter

it is invariably men

Not be contentious, but the underlying principles here were clarified for me in discussion wirh a woman philosopher. 😉

Evils should be stopped as early as possible. An evil can slip in because of a confused suggestion addressing a problem. Everyone says yes this an evil but we have a necessity to handle, and anyway this is a small evil and we only accept it in a socially limited context. Unfortunately, one has now admitted an evil principle without any limiting countervailing principle. The situation now follows its inner logic and the evil principle expands without limit beyond the original “socially acceptable” context. Now the city is burning.

Winter July 12, 2023 9:33 AM

@modem

Not be contentious, but the underlying principles here were clarified for me in discussion wirh a woman philosopher.

I have not yet have the pleasure of a woman explaining this logical abomination to me.

An evil can slip in because of a confused suggestion addressing a problem.

I do not see how calling, eg, a shoplifter a war criminal responsible for genocide helps fighting either crime?

The situation now follows its inner logic and the evil principle expands without limit beyond the original “socially acceptable” context. Now the city is burning.

Is this a complicated description of the “slippery slope” principle?

I still do not see how equating illegal data copying to forcing women into pro*****tion helps fighting against modern slavery. Can you help?

modem phonemes July 12, 2023 11:10 AM

@ Winter

complicated description of the “slippery slope” principle

No, because here the same evil principle widens its scope of effect, more of a social engineering “long hack”. The social acceptance at each stage makes the expansion to the next stage acceptable, where that stage if it had been originally presented would have shocked and exceeded the bounds of what is socially acceptable, so the probability of continuing remains high. To stop the continuation, a contrary principle has to be brought forward, not just a social reluctance.

Winter July 12, 2023 12:21 PM

@modem

No, because here the same evil principle widens its scope of effect, more of a social engineering “long hack”.

I am completely mystified when kidnapping and raping women is somehow to be morally equated with illegally copying personal information. That really is belittling the horrible traumatic plight of these victims with something that is, in general, more like a monetary inconvenience at most.

Basically, you are saying that kidnapping and raping women is not so bad because it is the same as just copying their personal data.

But maybe that is in line with those conservatives that yell “Freedom” at every opportunity, but deny women the right to decide over their own bodies for, reasons. Or those Moms for Liberty that deny children (and adults) their freedom to make their own choices of whom to love.

modem phonemes July 12, 2023 5:03 PM

@ Winter

completely mystified

Perhaps take a look at Dave Eggers’s The Circle (book or fillm).

Clive Robinson July 12, 2023 6:56 PM

@ Winter,

Re : The consequential harms.

“I am completely mystified when kidnapping and raping women is somehow to be morally equated with illegally copying personal information.”

Both can be extreamly harmful.

Something physical that happened to you when you were young can be over come in various ways. One of which is to keep hidden in future times from all others. The initial hurt whilst extream remains “past”.

Now consider something that is of no harm at the time like sending an intimate photo to someone you trust, but later as you become successful or even famous the trusted person either makes it public or blackmails you in a current or endless series of harms.

How do you rate the harms caused?

Because like it or not, the law deals with “harms”… If you can not show a harm then you have no standing in non criminal cases. But even for a crime to have been committed there has to generally be both a harm suffered[1] from the “actus reus”, and importantly an intent or “mental element” to cause or benift from that harm directly or indirectly (part of which is “mens rea” or the “guilty mind”).

[1] Yes there are statutory crimes for which there is no allowable defense, but in all but the most recent of legislation the burden of proof was generally very high to hopefully prevent a second party placing incriminating evidence.

Winter July 13, 2023 1:45 AM

@Clive

Both can be extreamly harmful.

I can understand that it is possible that having your private data illegally copied can lead to a traumatic experience.

But do you see a way, any way, that being kidnapped to a foreign country and forced into pros****tion does anything short of destroying the victim’s life?

How do you rate the harms caused?

Are you really equating the sharing of an inappropriate photo with being forced to to work in a foreign bro**el?

I’ll try to translate it to a male perspective.

It is the difference between having a potential dickpick possibly leaked versus your family jewels cut off for sure, and maybe an eye or arm too, after having been kidnapped to a foreign country with no opportunity to get home, ever. Living in constant fear of being further maimed or murdered.

No, there is no comparison. Getting your information leaked can be bad, certainly, having your life thoroughly destroyed in yearlong torture is definitely worse.

Winter July 13, 2023 6:21 AM

@modem

Perhaps take a look at Dave Eggers’s The Circle (book or fillm).

And you have a look at Lilya4-ever
‘https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilya_4-ever

The Circle is still a Sci-Fi fantasy.

Lilya4-ever is all to real, based on the life and death of Danguolė Rasalaitė
‘https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danguol%C4%97_Rasalait%C4%97

Yeah, privacy hell might eventually get to look like the Circle, but human trafficking hell is just here, and has been here for ages.

Clive Robinson July 13, 2023 9:44 AM

@ Winter, JonKnowsNothing, name.withheld…, ALL,

Re : AI’s for abuse and oppression, to get AL-HAPI.

It’s not hard to find examples or see where things are going with AI LLM’s and abuse and oppression as I will come onto But first as it’s in part behind it, to answer your point of,

“Are you really equating the sharing of an inappropriate photo with being forced to to work in a foreign bro**el?”

Firstly I did not say that, it is almost a straw-man argument of pick an extream and use it to argue against what you think others will believe is a minimal embarrassment[1]. Thereby “normalising abuse and oppression” in text and the mental models arising from considering it (cognative bias in humans, currently unfathomable encoding in LLM weights).

But to argue the point, remember in some parts of the world boys and young men are taken and emasculated for enslavment, oppression and degradation including being used for the sexual abuse by others. Others get mutilated in that way because they see it as the only way out of extream oppressive poverty and deprevation and a chance of a marginally better life. Or their parents sell them into it for other reasons to do with oppression and deprevation. All of which supports the nonsense of “Might is Right” used to cover “My Entitlement v. Your Rights” or “Individual wants over societal responsability”.

Historically it was codified in many ways (see European and US history on eugenics, compulsory sterilisation, medical experimentation on “chosen groups” etc practiced during the 1920’s through 30’s and even upto the 50’s). Most obviously historically it was and still is part of the Jizya “protection tax” on dhimmis “non Muslims” imposed as civil oppression to provide the equivalent of slaves that we know still goes on today[2].

Well to flip your argument back,

“Truthfully and honestly you would have to ask the victims of the harms.”

As they are the ones who have suffered not I hope you, or any other readers of this blog.

But, what we do unfortunately know is that some people who have had personal details released have gone into long term almost catatonic depression, existing barely alive and in constant fear. Some have gone further and committed suicide, seeing no way out. Whilst others have turned to significant substance abuse, be they legalaly aquired or not. What might appear as a lucky few have been able to distance themselves from it and live a pretence of normality, but still live in perpetual fear they will be found and it will start all over again. I would not say that these are minimal harms in any way.

So yes I would say for some having part of their private life exposed followed by the hate and villification from many thousands from all directions each made worse because the abusers are hidden and can not be stopped so there is no hope of rescue or peace is extrodinarily harmfull. Others may and obviously do think differently which is why the biasing of LLMs is of so much interest to them. Not just because of the power of the harms, but because of their power over the machines that others can not comprehend sufficiently to stop…

But ask yourself the question in terms of just mental harms. What is the difference between,

1, The mental harm of being physically raped by individuals, who do it for power/pleasure.

2, The mental harm of having hundreds if not tens of thousands anonymously doing “mental rape” for power/pleasure.

I can not, and I hope you can not either.

Which is why I talked about the way society currently deals with it through legislation and punnishment.

For better or worse, currently we have to rely on “the law” and how it’s human adjudicators and formulators see “harms” and how they should be addressed.

And as both you and I know, legislation has to be dragged by society or pushed by pollitical intent / mantra. We can see the war on womens bodies and the oppression and degredation of others, currently rising up yet again in many parts of the world, often actively supported by religion (which is not an area I wish to get into here).

But as all readers of this blog should be aware AI LLMs are particularly vulnerable to not just being biased by the input, but the order the input is given. Worse the bias so far can not be seen or analyzed by looking at the LLM Model weights. The fact that all the LLMs that have been “fielded” so far for acceptable human use, need the corrections of humans such that the LLM outputs are “acceptable by society” tells you just how vulnerable such AI systems are to being biased. It’s not mentioned much currently but Microsoft’s Tay lacked such controls, and it took only minimal time in human terms to make it’s output so socially unacceptable it had to be taken down and then “hidden away” initially by PR then by getting it out of the Public Eye and waiting for the short attention span of the masses to make it forgotton.

We see the same going on currently with RoboDebt and similar “Arms Length Harms At Political Instigation”(AL-HAPI pronounced as “All Happy”). Which the instigators and fascilitators of which are trying to “Kick into the long grass” so they will personally not come to harm for their actions.

But we also see the people behind these abuses and oppressions, pushing for AI LLMs to not just adjudicate, but formulate legislation. On the arguments of AI can be impartial, and distill out what society wants… Yet we know AI LLMs and similar can be quickly and trivially biased even with impartial and fair information…

Does this sound like a recipe for disaster and worse, a lot worse?

[1] It is this form of argument that has and is being used to push AI LLM’s into biased behaviour modes. Which should frighten everyone when you hear of politicians and public servants being encouraged to use LLMs to replace human judgment. The public message is to reduce costs and have a fairer / impartial system. The hidden arguments are that it gives “arms length deniability” via at the basist level “The computer says no”, –but in reality as RoboDebt and similar havr shown– to hide the gross oppression of political mantra by biasing such systems effectively increasingly less visably to all but those who carry it out. Whilst also protecting the perpetrators and facilitators and thus avoid any retribution or justice for what they have done with extream malice and intent.

[2] For a current US academics sanitized view on the Jizya on dhimmis see,

https://katz.sas.upenn.edu/resources/blog/what-do-you-know-dhimmi-jewish-legal-status-under-muslim-rule

For what still goes on in practice you have to look to other sources. Such as court cases that hwve given glimpses into how certain wealthy families run their homes and staff them. But it is clear the Jizya is used to debase and degrade others in all ways possible to establish a hierarchy in society. That is designed to eternaly remind the oppressed that their ancesstors failed in the face of overwhelming odds.

Winter July 13, 2023 10:14 AM

@Clive

Firstly I did not say that, it is almost a straw-man argument of pick an extream and use it to argue against what you think others will believe is a minimal embarrassment

It is not extreme. Slavery is in the definition of Human Trafficking. Victims of Human Trafficking are forced to work as slaves. Women are forced to work in pros***tion. That is not rare, or exceptional, that is what Human Trafficking is. In India there are even cases where victims were used to harvest organs.

And if you would, hypothetically, ask a random victim of data theft whether she rather had been kidnapped, r*ped, and forced to work in a foreign b**thel, I doubt that she would say yes. However, if you, hypothetically, ask a victim of human trafficking whether she rather had her data stolen than being enslaved, I rather expect her to say yes. If you have other information, I would like to hear it.

The movie Leyla4-ever gives a good idea how that works.

But ask yourself the question in terms of just mental harms. What is the difference between,

1, The mental harm of being physically raped by individuals, who do it for power/pleasure.

2, The mental harm of having hundreds if not tens of thousands anonymously doing “mental rape” for power/pleasure.

Do not ask me, ask any women in your environment. My impression is that women actually do make a difference between the physical breach of bodily autonomy and the mental breach.

I do not belittle the trauma that can follow data leaks. But there are levels of trauma. Not everyone whose data leak will end up with a destroyed life. Victims of human trafficking rarely end up not with their lives destroyed.

Taxation is not slavery and data theft is not human trafficking. Saying so is an insult to the victims of slavery and human trafficking.

JonKnowsNothing July 13, 2023 10:16 AM

@Clive, All

re: AI Data Persistence v Right to be have Data Erased

A MSM Tech article about the problems of applying Right of Erase to AI LLM and HAIL data.

All of the points listed are well defined in this thread, but it is the application of Data Removal Laws (global) that throw a significant spanner in the AI Data Collection and Training Set harvesting.

The concept that an Individual can request Right of Data Erasure and then have access to All the AI Datasets, All the AI Training Models, All the AI HAIL outputs, maybe a factor in AI LLM Companies trying to get “blanket consent” the old Opt-In-by-Default for All Use. Whether such manufactured consent or initial direct consent is Non-Revocable will be an interesting dust up in the global courts.

It can certainly be done, DRM companies parse even a few notes or lyrics to squash “fair use claims”. Not every country has “fair use” rules. The Fair Use Rule in the USA is being challenged by the congesting (interesting word there) of entire books by scraping Book Reviews or Book Club Reading Discussions and re-editing the output to contain the entire book (this is the claim). The other claim is the entire book is harvested from a non-copyright protected source repository outside the jurisdiction of extensive copyright filings (global).

In the DRM cases, the outcome will be to pay royalties of use and everyone will be happy.

In the case of Individuals, getting their data de-linked could be the start of a big shift.

  • In order to comply with data protection regimes, AI chatbots and associated machine learning applications will have to be capable of forgetting what they’ve learned.
  • The potential for legal entanglement is not merely theoretical.
  • in LLMs, it is hard to know what personal data are used in training and how to attribute these data to particular individuals…. “Data subjects can only learn about their personal data in these LLMs by either inspecting the original training dataset or perhaps by prompting the model.”
  • training datasets may not be disclosed.
  • prompting trained models to see how they respond doesn’t guarantee the text output contains the entire list of information stored in the model
  • Removing personal data from an LLM’s training dataset doesn’t affect existing trained models
  • Hallucinated data is not contained in the training dataset of the model, and hallucinated data from the model is hard to eliminate
  • technical persistence of data … until bit rot sets in
  • how [does] OpenAI handles data removal requests or how long such requests take to implement
  • there is a clear disconnect here between law and technical reality

===

https://www.theregister.com/2023/07/13/ai_models_forgotten_data

  • AI models must follow privacy law – including right to be forgotten

(url fractured)

Winter July 13, 2023 10:50 AM

@JonKnowsNothing

All the AI Training Models, All the AI HAIL outputs, maybe a factor in AI LLM Companies trying to get “blanket consent” the old Opt-In-by-Default for All Use. Whether such manufactured consent or initial direct consent is Non-Revocable will be an interesting dust up in the global courts.

That does not fly with the GDPR. Consent must be positive and meaningful. Consent can always be revoked. However, that is only for privacy, ie, anything that can be traced back to a living person with some probability.

For copyright, that must simply be handled in the law/courts. Copyright is automatic, but for copyright law to apply, the original must be recognizable.

Current claims against AI are in the mere “copying” part, using the material to train the models. There are no claims that these models reproduce the works in any recognizable way.

To me that sounds like the publishers wanting to tax me when becoming a writer/musician because I read books/listened to music to learn how to become a writer/musician.

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