Schneier on Security

Clive Robinson • November 5, 2022 12:32 AM

@ ALL,

USENIX killed LISA after 35 Years

Re : LISA Remembered.

Some of you are already that USENIX has killed off the “Large Installation System Administration” Conference due to the fact the Conference has effectively made the need for it obsolete.

Well has wrote a piece remembering LISA from it’s early days,

https://www.usenix.org/publications/loginonline/lisa-made-lisa-obsolete-thats-compliment

It kind of catalogs the changes in computing, from a time when LANs were “rings” and physically they were made with cables as thick as your thumb and with a “bend radius” about the same as the radius of a car wheel. As for WAN’s they came via your very unfriendly “Telcos” via “leased lines” that cost almost as much to rent each and every year as they actually cost the telco to put in…

Well those systems are all gone now and even Telco’s don’t supply “Plain Old Telephone Systems”(POTS) except to those “the law requires” them to do. With what was once called “the last mile” is often just a few yards to a pedistal in a city or urban residential street, where that old analog line becomes VoIP on DSL or similar joining fiber backbones that are entirely digital and in many cases are TCP/IP based on the lower “physical layers”.

Back when the conferance started 32bit and above CPU’s were still in rack cases and “made of chips” rather than “being chips” and The likes of “bit slice ALU’s” and ECL logic were still considered bleeding edge. So knowing how to use a “wire wrap gun” was still a skill needed by those writing code at the lowest level basically for register to “Register Transfer Logic”(RTL) on which the ROMS that “Microcode” resided in were the next layer up, to give you the next layer via the ISA “machine code” that systems programers wrote assembler for the base of the OS in).

As most will now know, in some ways we are going backwards. General purpose CPU’s fast as they are, are just too darn slow… So the “Programable Array Logic”(PAL) we used to do the glue on RTL ROM interfacing has gone from just a few gates and a fuse map, to “Field Programable Gate Arrays”(FPGAs) of hundreds of thousands of gates, built into the CPU as a co-processor in which software algorithms become dedicated logic circuits giving a fifty to five hundred times speed increase.

But as for the then much denegrated “System Administration” it’s become a real career path, which is not as under valued as it was (trust me you could earn more as a brick layer or day labourer back then). It’s why I was a “Communications Network and Systems Design Engineer” doing a bit of “SysAdmin” on the side to keep the disparat CAD/CAM and BOM DB’s running coherently.

Back in the very early 1990’s I was probably one of the very few people in the UK to “buy” my own personal Unix systems and have them networked up, they were “Zenix” on 286 and “SCO” on 386 (and yes, like nearly every small businesse I had iffy-licence handling). It was a time when Microsoft appeared to be going down for the second time against GEM with Windows 2… Businesses ran on MS-DOS and WordPerfect on the desktop and had shared drives and printing centralised over “Cheaper-Net” to Novel File Servers (the earliest of which were based on a Motorola 68K CPU not Intel).

My reason was that as a Comms Design Engineer more and more of what I did had become computerized, and PC’s were pushing out “Big-Iron and serial terminals” as such nobody was responsible for ensuring things “worked” and more importantly “stayed working”. The final realisation was when the company I worked for got broken into and all the desktop computers got stollen. Sales, Marketing, Managment, Human Resources were paralized and production crippled, with more than fifty people unable to work. Engineering with thirty people had lost ten computers with all the current and past designs on. In most places it would have been the end of the organisation. However I’d annoyed most of the engineers by ensuring the computers were not their personal toys and had made backups and much else that I’d pursuaded the engineering manager to have a fire proof safe for, due to an earlier incident at one of our customers (who did go belly up over a computer theft and fire the criminals had started).

We had all our monitors keyboards and tracker-balls and graphics tablets as just the computer boxes had been taken. But we were not going to get them replaced for quite some time… I told the engineering manager I would loan the company five computers and some terminals to get things back up again untill the new computers arived… So my home systems running Unix came in… “But we run on DOS” was the first thing said… So I showed them the joys of DOS-Merge, and why X-Windows terminals ment we could use just five computers and have not ten but twelve people working. So a day to install software create user accounts and get the network cabling sorted out and two half days for training and Engineering was back up and running. It took nearly three weeks for the rest of the company to get back to the ability to work but it was months before some data got typed back in. Needless to say things changed and the Maniging Director insisted on changes… Which ment we needed some one to run the systems… So I got another job title added to the three I’d already got… It was not long after that with also doing a Master of Science degree and trying to move it up to a PhD that I changed jobs as a “Systems and Network Senior Engineer” where this time systems ment “computers” not “radio / Telemetry” and network ment “LAN/WAN” not large “radio communications and telecommunications”.

From then on USENEX and it’s conferences including LISA became just another part of what we now call “Proffessional Development” and so my personal “hamster wheel not just turned but spun”…

Needless to say I don’t do the “System Administration” thing it’s still just “a side thing” just another “part of the job” as they say. I don’t even “lead” or “Direct” much, I do “consult” on the “big picture” as it were and put on my “fire helmet” where required, to sort out those directors, managers, leaders, and hopefull rescue the poor souls that “work the coalface” of Systems Administration.

Oh the fun thing in the UK “retirment” is nolonger compulsory, and it looks like bo one will be able to afford to either with the current state of the world. So I guess I’m probably not going to . stop “Proffessional Development” even as they nail the lid down[1]…

I could recomend the works of Aldous Huxley but a couple of his observations we realy all should take not just on board but action,

1, “One believes things because one has been conditioned to believe them.”

Because,

“The propagandist’s purpose is to make one set of people forget that certain other sets of people are human.”

So remember,

“Unlike the masses, intellectuals have a taste for rationality and interest in facts. Their critical habit of mind makes them resistant to the kind of propaganda that works so well on the majority.”

An “intellectual” these days is some one who is serious about “Proffessional Development” and “Life Long Learning” in many fields of endevor, so they can become the new “Renaissance Man/Woman” and move the whole of mankind forward not narrow parts of it.

2, “The charm of history and its enigmatic lesson consist in the fact that, from age to age, nothing changes and yet everything is completely different.”

That is like a wheel it turns and what was old is new again. Because,

“That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.”

And something I point out from time to time, and I shall again in original form,

“What is the stuff of mankind, what can he do to rise, only honest history tells, and guides the journey.”

[1] Not that I’ll probably get a coffin… the way things are going I could end up “a shadow on the wall” near instantly cremated by some Superpower turning London into “Ash City” just to make a point… Anyone need any EMP advise? I can do discount rates 😉

Clive Robinson • November 5, 2022 2:07 AM

@ SpaceLifeForm, ALL,

Decline of Social Media Old Guard.

I’ve been saying for a while now that traditional social media organisations have started failing.

I think it safe to say that Twitter’s “Pump and Dump” has ended, and the cold light of day is heading their way with the sort of inevitability history paints of the Titanic. Will a new helm on the hand change the course sufficiently, or will it still be “best speed” untill the big crunch?

People might also remember a year ago Facebook became Meta, possibly to try to push the “pecker-wrecker” that Metaverse all to predictably became (anyone remember SecondLife?). They peeked at around a trillion dollar valuation and are now worth what barely a quater of that, even though they are selling way more advertising (much to every users anoyance just as YouTube are doing and so loosing users “to the Chinese thing” Tic Tok is). But that add revenue is unsurprisingly falling faster and further than a lead kipper in the Mariana Trench[1]. It does not even look like there is any “meta-tail-spin” just the smoke plume of a tail on fire, probably from that blockchain nonsense attached to Metaverse.

Of course part of the damage to Meta was Apple’s change in privacy policy that was going to make certain things such as “adds” extreamly difficult for Meta.

But Meta are not doing themselves any favours. Metaverse is predicated on two things,

1, Virtual Reality will be soon.
2, Businesses will take up VR as soon.

The downturn in the world economy as well as the still supply issues on chips means Meta’s VR headset is well over priced for the sinking market.

Worse Meta are pushing slightly shy of $10billion a year into Metaverse and will continue to do so for several years to come…

With no sign of a “killer app” for Metaverse, especially not for business where is $1500 for the headset going to be found? Short answer quick is “it’s not”

As I’ve said before I don’t use social media and I only occasionaly use on other peoples systems You-Tube. They have visably gone “add mad” and the quality of the adds is at best sad… So I’m guessing Google/Alphabet are seeing significantly falling ad revenue as well.

I predict ad revenue will fall for quite some time, half a decade would not surprise me. In fact “the bubble bursting” fairly soon would not surprise me at all. After all Online Advertising is in effect a “Con-Game” with 99% of the money disapearing in agencies and the like, those who still have a marketing budget are starting to question where they will spend it…

Oh and of course the “poor man’s painkiller” of choice has always been alcohol. So now things are getting painfull those OnLine Subscription services are not looking good. In the US people pay ridiculous amounts of money for cable television… For those that can put up an antenna “free2view” Over The Air TV is likely to cost them less than a month or two of the cheapest subscriptions…

The next question is thus “What of Netflicks etc?”

I’ll let others answer that but, longer working hours for less pay and way higher food prices is going to have an effect.

[1] There is something called the principle of S-Curves that tells you when it’s time to stop what you are doing and do something else whilst you still have time to jump off the S-curve you are on and it becomes terminal.

Clive Robinson • November 5, 2022 12:28 PM

@ Winter,

Re : “One Time Program” (OTPr)[1]

It’s not a new idea, I’ve mentioned the basics behind such things long before in the earlist days of this blog with the problem of,

“Hiding keys in RAM”

Against hardware capture attacks (and later liquid nitrogen freezing of DRAM). It’s a problem I had researched and found several solutions for back in the 1990’s. The method I described on this blog for simplicity was via “Data Shadows” that continuously evolve[2], so that what you do to get the key this time will not work again (look up “snakes eating their tails”, “Ouroboros”, oh and “drinking petrol”).

As with all such things the ultimate problem to solve boils down to the “Root of Trust”(RoT) / “Shared Secret” and how you can use it just once but also nobody else can again… Matthew Green’s colleagues have gone down a “hardware” route, which I’ve not been keen on since my being responsable for using SMS on Mobile phones as a secure side channel back in the 1990’s (we know how that went… something that still haunts me). Which is why I know it can be done without using a hardware approach. For instance your stream generator needs to have certain non reversable properties in my prototype I used a varient on BBS, and the counter that provides the offset needs to be a bit more than a counter, it too needs a one way functionality to it).

This RoT issue is not an easy problem to solve to see why think about “copies of copies” (Matthew mentions it in a way that’s overly complex to get the fundemental idea).

I email you the program, so you need to ask,

“Where is the “root of trust?”

That “shared secret” that enables you to run the program. How can that be protected from being copied yet be,

“Somehow be securely got to you?”

Tough problem to solve…

Matthew’s colleges go down that hardware rabbit hole, that does not actually solve the RoT problem, just moves it, much as real “One Time Pads”(OTPs) do.

As for the logic circuit I suspect many peoples brains will “flip bits” trying to understand it. The thing you have to remember is that all such circuits have their state built in just like Block Cipher hardware. So they can in theory / concept / undetstanding be replaced with a simple lookup table (though it might need many more atoms than there are in the Universe 😉

It’s an interesting idea, but one I suspect won’t go anywhere… Once upon a time back in the long dim distant past, there were logic circuits called “Content Addressable Memory”(CAM) that in certain circumstances were ideal circuits for data related activities. One such is you did not have to sequentially step through every memory address doing compares on it’s contents. I used a varient of CAM in image processing for medical imaging back in the 1980’s. The thing is whilst CAM does get put in some chips today, they are way way to “application specific” to be made available otherwise. I’m hoping that “algorithms in FPGA’s directly built in as a CPU coprocessor will bring CAM back into less specific usage.

As an asside it’s a funny thing Matthew Green says,

<

blockquote>”This is a specific kind of cryptographically obfuscated computer program”

Look up this blog page to my comment to Anders and how I mentioned it was time for the mantra about “Security by Obscurity” to be dropped and “one time systems” for security to become main stream… I did not expect to have others talk about,

“Security by Defendable Dynamic obscurity”

So soon (please no jokes about birds feathers, or minds thinking alike, I can come up with enough of those myself).

[1] Yes I’ve added a little “r” to the name… The reason is the “Three Letter Acronym”(TLA) of “OTP” is now badly “overloaded” not just in the general sense but in very much in the domain of security especially using Crypto. This means that the usual,

“Context makes clear the TLA usage”

has been considerably weakened. Hence the little “r” as a sub script differentiator on the main TLA…

[2] A grossly over simplified idea is that you store the key as an extended form of “stream cipher”. Where one part of the computer say via an interput that is used to update the TRNG entropy pool, also updates the cipher stored in RAM that protects the key. To recover the key to use it you program would need to be able to generate the “stream cipher running key” at the right offsets. This could be done with the use of a “crypto counter” (see work of Adam Young with his acadrmic supervisor Moti Young, who I know reads this blog from time to time so as they both deserve the shout out 😉

Clive Robinson • November 5, 2022 4:58 PM

@ MK, ALL,

Re : Lost employment.

“As a resident of Silicon Valley, I wonder where all the laid-off engineers will go.”

It’s nice to know that someone is at least thinking about them and expressing concern.

The US the politicians won’t admit it is very much into a recession and the trajectory is unlikely to chance upwards untill after the next presidential election…

So as “Silicon Valley” is not a cheap place to live these days, I suspect some will head out for other places, much further north and probably quite far east as well. Where their new income will be significantly reduced, but, it will be sufficient to meet their reduced circumstances.

Others will msybe get to replace those on work visas who are going to get kicked out due to the recession.

I’ve seen estimates of a 1/5-1/2 lay off of tech jobs as the add revenue tumbles, and “On-Line” can move anywhere the land is cheap, and employes can be herded in like the old coal miners of the 1800’s and iron workers of the 1900’s.

In effect many tech workers will be come the new “blue collar” level waged workers hanging around the top of the working class but not realy paid enough to have middle-class life styles. Because the tech bubble that is mainly froth on the faux society of social networking, paid for by add revenue will either burst or deflate, as there is no real economy to support it.

The same will apply to many other current middle-class “semi-professionals” who will find themselves down graded, into working class for political reasons.

For many “Cash-up and Dash-out” to where they can have a debt free no rent life style out of the US may be their best option. It’s no real secret that “Big Business” has “hollowed out the US” and that the US can nolonger support it’s budget deficits and the overly high standard of living expectations.

I don’t know if we will see a new 1930’s “Hoovervilles”[1] you see pictures of in places Central Park. I suspect if certain states current legislation is followed it will be a serious criminal offence with years of jail time in private high profit jails.

[1] These shanty town squats on what was regarded as public land got the name “Hoovervilles” after President Herbert Hoover who was at the time blamed for the economic crises that put so many in them. The reality was of course caused by what we would now call “Neo-Con Free Market idiocy” thus will they get named after the real instigators or their puppets in politics so much on the take… I guess as usual it will be not the victors but the survivors of the mess the Great American Dream has caused yet again who will write the history, but very few will get to read the truth of it…

Oh and in the short term for those on the US West coast and down south, that old joke about the last one out remembering to “turn out the lights”. Don’t worry, the lights won’t be on anyway because most will not be able to afford the cost. And there is a reason they are called “rolling blackouts” there’s nothing like creating a crissis and then demanding more money to “bank roll” a fix for it that just raise payments to preferential investors… Have a look at PEG’s behaviour and similar behaviour in Texas. Profit before maintainence, then stage manage a crisis and blaim the victims to raise income, especially from the poor and subsidies paid via taxation… As a business model you would have thought people would have realised by now they are being had, yet it still goes on…

Clive Robinson • November 5, 2022 6:13 PM

@ SLF,

Fascists can not abore Floss

I think you’ve had finger mistrike and ment “abide” 😉

Clive Robinson • November 7, 2022 6:45 PM

@ Winter, ALL,

Re : Free Speech is a Religion.

Remember for “true believers” anyone who is not more commited than they are is a heritic, and history shows how “true believers” deal with those they even suspect of heresy.

Lets just say I do not want to go out on top of a pile of burning faggots[1].

People with such strongly held views at the very least suffer from severe cognative bias, and they can also see any questioning of their core beliefs no matter how justified as a personal attack on them. It does not take much imagination to work out what the result of validation of such questioning would cause people with such core beliefs, the US was unfortunate enough to have seen it break out over the past half decade or so.

[1] A faggot traditionally is a bundle of sticks etc collected as fire wood. The same word for a bundle of sticks firewood in Italian gives us the word fascist. For the same reason as the old Scottish saying of,

“You cany break a stick in a bundle”

Refering to the notion of “strength in numbers” where the numbers make a tightly formed group.

Clive Robinson • November 8, 2022 7:12 AM

@ Winter,

“I do not understand the business case of this new product”

Idiots play “Russian Roulette” in it’s many forms all the time…

They call it “thrill seeking”, more rational mature people regard it as “anti-darwinian” for obvious reasons.

Think of the game of “chicken” where two car drivers speed head to head untill either one “chickens out” and swerves with a high risk of “T-Bone injury/death” or they both crash head on.

There are many examples of adolescent games taken to idiotic extreams. As I’ve mentioned before their choices of thrill can be problematic, for instance some do it nearly all the time by the way they drive, you’ve probably seen a few candidates for this in your time. In Israel for example a certain type of “tail gating” got so bad they had to bring in stringent legislation.

Unfortunately these idiots choices can also involve others who don’t want to play, thus become mear collateral damage to the idiots… Who think for some mentally defective reason they are somehow smarter or better than those they have murdered or maimed.

Having nearly been a victim of such behaviour[1] it’s a significant factor in why I don’t get in cars etc where I can avoid it, and tend to use public transport where your personal risk from such idiots is generally considerably lower.

[1] It happened when I was learning to drive at night (something that at the time was not considered as part of testing). As I approached a T-Junction with traffic lights in my favour I slowed manovered etc and suddenly the driving instructor slamed their foot on the dual brake. Luckily I had slowed enough that we stopped in enough time. A black car with lights out and three or four teenage males went through the junction against the lights at two to three times the speed limit. If the car I was in had not stopped in time, they would have ploughed into the drivers side where I was, and it would not have been a survivable collision for me. I later asked my driving instructor what he had seen that made him stamp his foot on the brake, as I’d not seen anything even though I had looked. His reply was a little unnerving in that he said he had only seen a tiny glint of a light reflected for a fraction of a second off of the black cars trim. And… The only reason he had seen it was because he was expecting it and had not, unlike me, looked both ways “in the approved manner”… Apparently it was not the first time it had happened to him as the area had quite a number of “car thefts” by “joy-riders”… He had heard them change gear / rev-up and that clued him in effectively subconciously and he had reacted instinctively. I was “to busy” concentrating on trying to do things right, that even though I realised later I had also heard the rev-up I’d effectively not made the connection at the time.

Clive Robinson • November 10, 2022 4:13 AM

@ SpaceLifeForm, JonKnowsNothing, ALL,

Re: Twitter implosion

It is to be expected, in fact demanded “by the market” of “fly by night” “make fast buck and run” financial investors.

As I keep pointing out “short term thinking” that is based on “making “next quaters figures” is destroying US industry.

So,

“Well not [do] nothing. I certainly would not have fired any tech folk at this point.”

Would be a reasonable response for the person in control, who has a sensible long term stratagem.

But Elon Musk is not in control the devil of “Market Expectation” is, and that will bleed Musk drier than a mummy in the desert, quicker than a furnace in hell.

It was his choice, he “went down to the crossroads and sold his soul” to call the tune, now he has to pay the piper.

For every one with their money in Silicon Valley “Big Corp” especially “Social Media” now would be a very good time “to get the heck out of dodge”. Because the whole mess is about to suffer techtonic rebalancing, starting with social media and radiating out like the blastwave of a bomb, taking much with it.

The sign that severe trouble is on the way for the US economy has been building.

Under GW Bush job losses were as much if not more than the entire jobs gains in WWII. However if you believe “the market” US production has steadily risen…

Actually what has happened is the Fed has through the banks bought around 4trillion of Tresury bonds, and implemented “quantative easing”.

That 4trillion has gone into the hands of just a tiny few who have taken it “off shore” in one way or another and also bought up as near as they can every “rentable asset” there is.

In the process kept hidden as best as possible the US has changed from a production and trade economy to a credit and debt economy, where the few use credit to buy assets and then “pass down the debt” to everyone else. Who now are absolutly dependent on “Paying Rent” to survive…

And there is not the “production-trade” needed to support this rent paying.

The only reason the US is still floating is it forces others to “Buy US Product in Dollars”.

But has anyone actually asked the question,

“What is US Product?”

Well not 4trillion of manufactured product that is for sure. Most of it is actually the “knowledge bubble” seen as “software” and the “ideas” behind it of the various Dot.Com bubble organisations in Silicon Valley and thr like. Lead by “marketing driven” “Social Media” / “Web X.0”, Crypto-Coin, NFA, Smart Contracts etc.

The modern day version of a “Black Tulip Market”.

History shows what happens with such markets, have a look at why England could buy up Scotland so cheaply as another example.

Musk has “no control” and “no choice” Twitter “is his Cryptonite” now effectively “chained around his neck”, pulling him down… The market has seen, and now they will do their best to strip not just the shirt of his back but flay him down to the bone. Have a look at what George Soros did to the UK when it’s government “Went down to the crossroads” over signing up to meetine Euro Entry rules…

Which by the way, was the cause of all those other “shady backroom deals” that has flayed the citizens in the South of the Euro Zone.

The sad fact ” most people are sleep walking onto a trap” and they have to wake up and realise that contrary to what they are brainwashed into believing “Governments do not run countries any more” the “Finance Markets” do, and their plans for 99.99% or more of the worlds population is that willingly or unwillingly they will be “asset stripped” and turned into “Rent Serfs” worse off in many cases than those in prison on life sentances with no parole.

But hey don’t take my word for it,

“Go out and look for yourself”

Clive Robinson • November 11, 2022 4:41 AM

@ SpaceLifeForm, ALL,

Re : Is Twitter Bankruptcy avoidable?

“”

According to Reuters three people who have seen Elon Musk’s first company-wide email to Twitter staff, have told them,

“Musk warned that Twitter would not be able to “survive the upcoming economic downturn” if it fails to boost subscription revenue to offset falling advertising income”

This is a simple truth I’ve been pointing out for a while now. It’s not just Twitter that are seeing falling add revenue, it’s all “social media” and most Internet Services.

Internet marketing has always been,

1, Fraudulant in many ways.
2, Mostly a compleate failure.
3, Hype / Bubble market.
4, A pump and dump vehicle.

Oh and don’t fall for the inevitable “Web 3.0 will save us” nonsense that will be talked up.

Back in the 1990’s I did research work into how you could raise revenue on the Internet in a sustainable way and my conclusions as I’ve mentioned on this blog before were not even back then encoraging.

My view was and still is, the only model revenue raising scheme likely to be sustainable for the Internet are the ones used by the telephone operators…

I suspect that Elon Musk’s place in history might be assured as,

“The man who burst the Internet bubble”

Let us get realistic all the economic indicators are that we are heading into a recession the like of which no living soul remembers or would want to and the only thing likely to stop it would be another World War or similar.

Almost the first thing that happens in a recession is businesses “re-evaluate” specifically costs which tenfs to fall on staff and advertising / marketing.

For those that don’t know Marketing and Religion are the two biggest money moving industries. Marketing tends to create “churn” unlike Churches, and so underpins or atlrast touches all parts of a modern economy…

Money churn is like music in a club, when it stops the fun is over and it’s time for the last one out to turn off the lights…

If the economic predictions are correct and I see no real reason to disbelieve them as they are “overdue”, as one person recently put it,

“Pretty soon we will not be able to buy a newspaper to wipe our arse on”.

The same applies to much of the commercial side of the Internet, that has never realy made money, and only got invested in on promises of growth in eye-balls that clearly are nolonger there.

The three qurstions for us the “netizens” are,

1, What price for Internet sustainability?
2, Will we be able to aford it?
3, Will we want to pay it even if we can?

Much rests on that answer to the third question. Some argue that we can not go back to pre-Internet times that to do so, will destroy mankind as we know it…

Maybe as only the quite young know it, but nearly half my life has been without the Internet, even though I’ve spent much of my working life in communications.

I also live with “modern conveniences” available if I want them. But I know how to live and have lived for times as my grand parents did out of choice, thus the modern conveniences I have are actually few, and those I do have I can mostly easily live without.

It’s been noted by some that I have a number of “rustic decorations” such as candle sticks and oil lamps mirrors and glass fronted pictures and similar. I do point out that nice as they look, they are all atleast “dual function” and “decorative” is not the function that is important to me.

Even the books in the book cases have more than “decoration” and “information” as functions, they also make fairly good insulation as do the blankets used as seat throws.

Because back in the 1970’s due to “Three day weeks” and “Strikes” I had to live like many others through “power cuts” and “black outs” when you only had a candle or lamp to “live by” for lighting and heat.

Clive Robinson • November 11, 2022 7:08 PM

@ Winter,

Re : Climate insecurity gives bio insecurity.

Do you remember this?

https://apnews.com/article/climate-science-health-environment-and-nature-d1cd773bfb6000e0d77a58ea743c135f

I was looking for it for my earlier reply to you but could not find it at the time…

As they say,

“Better late than never”

Applies to more than one thing…