GregW July 5, 2018 8:12 AM

In contrast, Kiss makeup doesn’t change the visual jawline as much so its no match for our computer overlords?

Inquiring minds want to know. I smell a master’s thesis in here somewhere!

Steve July 5, 2018 9:27 AM

Sadly, hiding your face using covering or masks is illegal in some US states. So, if you want to protest, leave your smartphone at home, leave your ID in the vehicle and take a subway to the location, but you aren’t allowed to hide your face to avoid political and job repercussions.

The law not allowing masks was used to fight the KKK, but now it is used to arrest people protesting and counter-protesting while wearing masks.

So, the need for makeup strategies to comply with law, but prevent massive facial recognition tools from working is a good thing.

Impossibly Stupid July 5, 2018 9:37 AM

Given the way object detection works for these fake-AI systems, you have to expect there are countless exceptional states that aren’t going to be good matches for the training data that was used. That’s why people who simply have darker skin can “fool” them. That’s why a few specific tweaks can cause a speed limit sign to be recognized as a stop sign (or vice versa).

More interesting than Juggalo makeup would be similar subtle tweaking that might allow a face to escape detection while at the same time not be so noticeable to a human observer. Things like maybe using black lipstick on just the lower lip. Heck, if you properly reverse-engineered the algorithm, you could probably make a person appear to be a stop sign; something that could maybe even save your life if autonomous cars keep getting allowed on the streets before they’re ready.

tadpole crown July 5, 2018 9:50 AM

A lot of people are making sites dedicated to masking this type of tech, but by doing so they usually stand out even more, and are probably bound to be included in various youtube videos and facebook posts with tags on each.

echo July 5, 2018 10:58 AM

I read this news when it first broke and wondered how long it would be before algorithms caught up. The fact is any nation state will have so much meta data on me I don’t see the point of changing my make up routine. I also wonder if this makeup scheme is less about avoiding facial regocition and more about a tribalistic identifier?

Studies confirm men have a psychological tendency to anonymise women. I’ll just put on my neurotic “where’s my bottle of gin” expression which is as perfect a deflection as anything, or the wide eyed pursed lip innocent look.

albert July 5, 2018 11:53 AM

Too bad the glam rock movement is over, otherwise men could get in on the action, too. (Check out the movie, “Shakes The Clown”) Makeup and hairstyle can have a remarkable effect on a womans appearance, at least in my experience. But we don’t use mathematical analyses of facial proportions:)
It’s my understanding that facial ‘recognition’ uses -proportions- of eye spacing and mouth and nose location, as well as others when available. At best, it’s a percentage game, just like most biometrics. Of course one can’t forget that everything nowadays seems to be computer-controlled statistical analysis.

At least in the casino, you know the odds going in, and you don’t -have- to play.

. .. . .. — ….

JO July 5, 2018 12:14 PM

So this is how Jim Carrey will become a supercriminal. They just won’t be able to find him.

Alyer Babtu July 5, 2018 2:45 PM

In the real soon now to be released third movie about fashion supermodels, doesn’t the lead character defeat surveillance cameras and facial recognition using a new “look” ?

ZisForZorro July 5, 2018 2:49 PM

@steve: How do sun glasses & beards work? Dress like ZZTop. Or use glasses with those fake eyes on them.

Of course it only works if everyone dresses like this. Otherwise it’s “Officer, check the ID on that one weird guy”.

MikeA July 5, 2018 4:25 PM

@JO: Don’t bet on this being good for Jim Carrey. It is more likely we will see a news story like

“Carrey convicted in 2 hour crime spree in Boston, Pittsburgh, Chicago, Topeka, Denver, Las Vegas, and Los Angeles”, wherein Jeff Sessions comments that “Clearly, the computer cannot lie or make a mistake”

Remember, there is no such thing as a false positive. There is only “needs a bit more work from the parallel construction crew”.

echo July 5, 2018 4:46 PM


I had the same idea it was an issue of mathematics versus perception. Glam rock is a thing if you can survive the makeover! Good luck albert!


The difference in gait between well fitting heels and badly fitting heels feels very noticeable to me.

Hmm July 5, 2018 5:20 PM


The AI knows how your shoes fit now on a daily basis. Thank you for compliance.

Insane Clown Privacy July 5, 2018 7:12 PM

Wonderful. Instead of being tracked by computerized surveillance systems for just being a normal human with a face, I’ll just go around in clown makeup that makes me hard to ID in facial recognition, but anyone within 100 feet of me in real life will assume I place malt liquor and meth about midway up the food pyramid.

Pervasive facial recognition is the single most Un-American idea we have allowed into public consciousness in the last 40 years.

Trust. No 1 July 5, 2018 10:17 PM

Branding failure… sorry

Not wanting to spam the forum with brands, but I meant L’Oréal.

Weather July 6, 2018 2:04 AM

I thought this had to do with the amount of information in a pixel, if it dark and you are dark skinned or it is really sunny and you are white it want have much different between neighbour pixels to make a data set

Petre Peter July 6, 2018 7:24 AM

Freedom of expression hints that wearing makeup cannot be considered a crime. I mean what happens at Halloween?

echo July 6, 2018 7:38 AM

@Trust No. 1

I’m wearing quite a mix of brands on my face at the moment. Keeping things on topic somewhat if you are using makeup I recommend using a primer to keep the make up from wearing off. I was, like, “meh” about primers for ages but they really do work. (Protip: Don’t mix silicon and water based primers and makeup because they don’t agree.) Primers are primers are primers to some degree.

I’m cheap so use baby oil to remove make up. That said some of the more expensive make up removers are very good. I may buy some just to use for removing mascara.

If you areusig stage make up then things may be different again so its best to check manufacturer instructions.

I don’t know what the maths versus perception result is but from a perception point of view there are tricks with highlighters and contouring which can harden or soften jawlines. You can use different colour foundations, or mix your own shade, or use other products and dedicated products. Applying can be with fingers, brushes, or a stick of make up.

Perception is a totally weird thing. The neuro-psycho-social stack can be interesting. To some extent I think this face recognition thing is old wine in a new bottle and issues of governance are more where enquiry should be. Beatign up protestors seems to be on the same level as a “domestic” as are other forms of psycho-social abuse. Perhaps we should be asking why do citizens feel compelled to hide their identity?

Alyer Babtu July 6, 2018 8:09 AM

And then there is the nearly infinite subtlety and economy of Noh and Commedia dell’Arte masks.

albert July 6, 2018 11:09 AM

In my dad’s era, mustaches were de rigeur. I never knew him without one. I resolved to have one ASAP, and started one at 19. Had one ever since. The clean-shaven look is not for me. But thanks for the ‘encouragement’ 🙂
‘They’ can always review someones shoe-buying data. It’s out there.

I’ve found that properly designed placards are useful, as are banners carried in front of rows of marchers.

Doesn’t this mean that placards and banners will someday be illegal?

. .. . .. — ….

justinacolmena July 6, 2018 1:21 PM


Sadly, hiding your face using covering or masks is illegal in some US states.

Only for men. If you were a lady, and you were sleeping with the right men, you would have no problem.

Or you slept with the wrong man, and you just need the make-up to cover up the black and blue.

Oh, that’s right. If you’re a man, I guess you could grow a beard, or trim it differently if you already had one….

echo July 6, 2018 10:21 PM


This week I paid cash for my store bought shoes. (No I dont’ have a loyalty card and yes I do want a receipt.) That said they are the same size I buy online. Annoyingly there is no standard for shoe sizes which can vary by as much as one whole shoe size. Buying women’s shoes is havoc in part because of this not to mention for heels ball to heel length is never mentioned anywhere. (Bras and dresses are the same.) If “they” wanted to make themselves useful “they” could publish an accurate and up to date size chart online.

Contrary to mainstream medical opinion feet can and do change size, both increasing and decreasing, in adults although this is not widespread and quite unpredictable. I have heard from friends online have experienced this and I have too. I have no idea why.

Clive Robinson July 7, 2018 4:10 AM

@ echo,

Annoyingly there is no standard for shoe sizes

Actually there is look up a measure called “barleycorns”[1],

It was unfortunately metricated… Being one third of an inch the approximation by some involved lossing ~0.5mm from the real value[2] then bumping it up again thus causing problems at certain meausrment points…

[1] Yup a piece of information almost totally irrelevant to most people, but yrs something I happen to know for reasons of once beong a consultant… So not just a pretty face 😉 [3]

[2] Put simply they aproximated the inch to 24mm –not the more accepted approximation of 25.4– to make mental arthmetic simple with an incorrect barleycorn conversion to 8mm which due to deing 2^3 has other problems…

[3] I found out yesterday from my son it might not even be a pretty face 🙁 I got him a job working at a friends manufacturing company and I dropped in to see how he was doing. Apparently whilst I was down on the production floor, I was recognized by somebody else that works there, who has seen me occasionaly on public transport. The upshot is even though small children are not frightened by me, I mainly make them curious, adults apparently see me as a cross between a Klingon “having a bad hair day” and Mongo from Blazing Saddles… I guess being around 2meters tall and as broad as a doorway does make me a little memorable, especially as I clomp around on crutches these days. I knew I was “memorably” tall when just a teenager at 13 which is why I knew I was not destined for “a life of crime”, as there are “Mr Bigs” but no “Mr too bigs”.

Anders July 7, 2018 11:22 AM

Bottom line – if you want privacy – ask someone to beat you up.
Black eye makes wonder.

herman July 7, 2018 12:34 PM

@echo: There is a standard for shoe sizes: ISO/TS 19407:2015 Footwear – Sizing

The best is prolly the European Mondopoint system. I can buy a shoe size 43 and it will fit.

echo July 7, 2018 2:23 PM


Yes there are shoe size standards. They all use slightly different schemes. I am ok with flats. Heels are problematic because of ball to heel length (which must be correct so the foot lies flat against the shoe) and other factors, not length. I normally need to adjust mine which varies depending on the shoe as well as ensure the ball of my foot is adequately cushioned and my feet don’t slip forward. A well fitting pair of heels means the difference between beign able to travel everywhere by taxi and sitting down versus walking and standing for a few hours without strain.

Here is an ISO document detailing differences of foot size systems. None mention ball to heel length.

This new essay contains an overview of historical trends leading to fashion choices of the present day.

echo July 7, 2018 2:41 PM


By “no standard” it would be clearer if I said “proliferation of standards” and nothign enforcing manufacturers use of standards not to mention thereis no standard which covers ball to heel length which is important for well fitting heels. Within some standards there is also ambiguity where different shoe manufacturers use slightly different interpretations. For example: Dune heels are almost always consistently one size smaller than most of the others for the same size on the box. Gossard are similar with bra sizing.

I have experimented with a few methods of adjusting shoes. I need to find a way to preserve the ball to heel length and provide good arch support without crushing my toes. I’m considering buying sheets of neoprene rubber and lining with a good quality thin leather insole, and felt as a front stop for ankle boots.

I know a foot specialist can provide custom insoles but these are very expensive as are bespoke shoes.

I always wear arch support insoles in flat shoes as they provide a small internal heel and cushion the foot.

Clive Robinson July 7, 2018 10:23 PM

@ echo,

Whilst I will admit that raising the heal ~1/3 of the “ball to heal diagonal” or higher does improve the look of people from the hips down[1], I’m glad I’m way way to tall for such “ankle cracking, knee breaking, spine crushing” conceits (I bu99ered my body in other more sporting ways and whilst wearing the green). Put simply at ~2m tall, and most doorways actually being less than 1.955m clearence, I have no choice but to “stoop”[2] adding between 0.05 and 0.15 meters to my hight via “heels” would not be good, no matter how much better it would make my look from the hips down.

The nearest I get to heels is Dr Martin “Dealer Boots” which as with most D’Ms has “air soles” which my damaged spine, hips, knees and ankles need along with walking sticks “set high” to keep my spine from colapsing down on the nerves thus stopping me from using my legs and putting me in a wheel chair[3]. Sadly though my main form of “relaxation” used to be walking which I used to do 20miles a day with “hill, fell and mountain walking” at weekends or cycling around 100miles a day in the summer with much longer distances at weekends. Both of which kept my legs in good shape without having to use heels 😉

What however over four decades of observation tells me is that the desire/need to wear heals is very very rarely to do with “the opposit sex” and nearly always due to competition within the persons sex within the workplace. The madness of what was the 1980’s of high heels pencil skirts padded shoulders and high/wide hair styles was more “officeware” power dressing than “socialware”. Though I must admit the “leg warmer -n- leotard” phase still makes me smile and shake my head.

[1] Actually it’s arguable it’s neck down for both looks and injury as heels effect the posture from head to toe, and in some cases give a “slimming effect” due to tightening of “core muscle structure” in the mid section. Also it tends to encorage people to put their shoulders back as well, improving the visable “s-curve” of the spine.

[2] Stooping is at best problematical because it means putting your head down which means you nolonger see the top of the door frame… Further it quickly causes back problems if you stoop more than an inch or two, so you end up stooping on auto-pilot to an average safe hight… Thus an older say WWII doorway which is an inch or so lower and proportionately narrower will gouge lumps out of your head because the auto-pilot does not get sufficient visual clues untill to late at best…

[3] The other advantage to the walking sticks is they enabled me to stop taking pain killers like smarties. Having sever chronic back and leg pain which was such I could only sleep with the use of drugs and the problem that CNS pain killers cause me both respiratory depression and hallucinations, ment I was not on opiates but even the “opiate analogue” Tramadol caused both hallucinations and respritory depression and it was becoming like an addiction. Now thanks to the walking sticks whilst not pain free I am still able to walk whilst importantly being painkiller and sleeping tablet free and can get two or three hours sleep two or occasionaly three times a day.

John Smith July 8, 2018 10:47 PM

from Hmm:
“But you can’t fake your GAIT…”

But you can shuffle dance your way to the protest.

Imagine the hilarity when Stazi 2.0 starts detaining people for “suspicious encryption of personal gait”.

bbhack July 10, 2018 3:13 AM

In their most famous photos, Peter Strzok has 3 nostrils, and Lisa Page has no lips. Do they know something we don’t?

echo July 14, 2018 5:11 PM


Yes, the whole area is frought for both physical and social reaons you mention. I have a loose and gentle self-improvement programme of my own. I think it best to leave things at the “show don’t tell” level.

1980s style doesn’t suit me at all on any level. I draw my influences from a small subset of 1950s Hollywood glamour and Dior, for mood and garment structure. I used to be a right stop-in bookworm which did nothing for my posture or diet but since making an effort have been going out much more and enjoying it if for no other reason I need the excercise and to blow out the cobswebs. I have received lots of good advice from other women who, mostly, want to create a clone of them but nonetheless the advice has been good and I have integrated this to positive effect.

I have a surprise invite to a champagne dinner so must be doing something right. (I’m not that big on champagne and have been ruined by Bollinger so this had better be good.) Alas, reading Bruces blog and bringing up security as a topic tends to be a conversation killer.

Clive Robinson July 15, 2018 4:31 AM

@ echo,

I’m not that big on champagne and have been ruined by Bollinger so this had better be good.

Funny you should say that, I realy do not like champagne, though like you I do find the very odd glass of vintage bolly kind of palatable 😉 for the money I actually prefere German Rhine and French Alsace whites like Eiswein and Trockenbeerenauslese for winter drinking with the lighter riessling grape wines for summer.

I tend to avoid red wines as I have very unpleasent side effects from some. However I do like some Portuguese fotified wines like Madeira and lighter fino ports as “pre-digestives” for heavy meals such as those of the winter solstice.

And yes for my sins I like, smoked salmon, stilton cheese and certain hot water crust pork pies (especially one specially made with cranberries in it by a little butchers in Melton Mowbery). As for the “traditional bird” of turkey, even with brining I find it dry and unpleasent and prefere the real traditional dishes of goose, duck, or haunch of venison or wild boar as a center piece (yup I’ve cooked them all on more than one occasion and “low and slow is the way to go” with them). I actually used to get more pleasure in cooking dinner for others than actually going out to dinner. It might account for why I still do charcuterie, cold smoking and making of various condiments as presents for people. Oh and fun oddities like Jamaican “lamb bread” think of it as being kind of like a cornish pasty, but using bread dough not pastry.

echo July 15, 2018 3:22 PM

I prefer red. I find most men who are paying for the wine tend to discover a sudden interest in red wine for some reason. There is the odd holdout so if they want to buy a bottle of white for themselves too I don’t kick up a fuss.

Port, and some sherry and the odd Italian monastry liqueur is nice.

I do agree cooking for others is a pleasure as is foraged food of varying provenances. I find springing a surprise cooked meal on people in the middle of nowhere, or pulling chilled drinks out of nowhere on a hot day under the shade of trees with civilisation a hazy blur in the distance to add to the whole experience too. I have also found it exciting to cook fish I have caught or food I have grown myself, especially if fresh. I am a total klutz with plant identification so shy away from wild plants in case I kill myself. (Some survivalist I am!) I’m probably going to be too lazy and miserable to make blackcurrent jam or pies before I chop the brambles back to make way for a flower and herb garden but, oh, you are making me feel hungry.

I did a little checking. I know some Texas turkey recipies produce moist turkey. I also read that resting turkey helps.Tome vary from 30-45 minutes to two hours with three as an extreme. Apparently the bird continues cooking and resting also helps improve moistness.

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