Schneier on Security

Chris • November 3, 2011 8:57 AM

This may be a difficult subject for some of us in the tech crowd to be unbiased about since social media is such a common part of many of our own lives and we tend to understand privacy and data aggregation better than the typical person. My own stepdaughter was given access to social media around age 11 or 12 and we did have all the (repeated) conversations about being cautious, only “friending” people she already knew from school, etc. She definitely understood the point, but children need responsible adults in their lives precisely because they are not yet fully responsible themselves. To make a long story short, there is a sexual predator currently serving a 10-year sentence for what I caught him doing online–and trying to do in person–with my stepdaughter (and other minors).

Looking back from the point you don’t want to find yourself in (albeit a better place than it could have been), one thing I wish we had done differently is respect the general rule and push to get the message across that rules exist for a variety of reasons and apply to him or her equally. When dealing with your own child, it’s easy to see that he or she is listening and believe he or she understands because you feel your child is ahead of the curve (and very well may be in many aspects). The fact remains that your child is still a child and will make mistakes. Whether we agree with them or not, the people setting these boundaries are trying to do so based on objective research as opposed to a subjective bias. Even though “only the parent can know what’s best for a child,” you are almost certainly biased toward your own. If you truly aren’t, then you’re probably satisfied with adhering to the age restriction.

Don’t let one easily preventable mistake cause your child a lifetime of pain. Instead, respect the rules and leverage the opportunity to get the point across that rules exist for a reason and should either be respected or changed through peaceful reason; your responsibility to your child is to lead by example in that regard. That lesson could prove useful in later years when he or she wants to break other age restrictions (such as 18 or 21) before the time has come and your position may be more rigid on those rules.

Many people try to make the point that their child never ended up in a similar position but have never asked how many times he/she was carefully coerced into that type of situation. I’ve seen how amazingly high the numbers are for childhood sexual abuse, but I’d bet half of those children’s parents still have no idea it happened. If it never was attempted, then you can’t make the argument that your approach was the formula for success. Even if it was attempted and your child made the right responses at the time, could it have gone differently if your child was in a different mood or if the predator had more “experience?” Fortunately, there are millions more children than predators. That doesn’t mean one won’t target your child–it only reduces the odds.

Before any bashing begins on my stance or my child, my stepdaughter was and is still a great kid as well as responsible for her age level. She makes good grades in school (even her honors classes) and will be starting college in the fall. It was a simple mistake that was fueled by entrapment from a mind that had literally decades more experience than herself and possibly a decade or more of experience grooming and blackmailing minors. That man is off the Internet (and the streets) for now, but that’s not true of all of them.

Chris • November 3, 2011 11:33 AM

@Andrew:

One key point that you seem to be missing is that no one is stopping you from teaching your child that it’s OK to lie in order to get what he or she wants. You have every right to do so and others have every right to disagree with that approach. Such is the level of freedom you seek, and such is the freedom available to you. If Facebook discovers that your child lied about his or her age, the account will be disabled/deleted for breaking their rules/terms and they, in turn, also have every right to do so.

Considering the majority of adult Facebook users are not very privacy conscious, I have to question their ability to transfer that skill to their children. What’s being regulated in this case is the age at which the government says it’s OK for Facebook to openly start aggregating and mining users’ personal data–not the age at which it’s OK for you to allow it as a parent. They’re saying “we know people reveal too much and you profit immensely from it, so don’t take advantage of anyone until they are at least 13 years old.” Breaking the rule on your end will not result in a prison sentence, having your rights as a parent revoked, or even a monetary fine. The same is true of a label on a toy stating that it’s not intended for use by children under a certain age.

The fact that you “broke the rules” by allowing your child to play with unsafe toys and then took the toy away after you realized the label was correct only proves what you’re missing: it’s easy as a parent to be biased or to “rebel” and end up making a bad decision. Hopefully, you’re able to recognize when it happens and change course before too much damage is done. In the toy scenario, it worked out for you and your child. In the Facebook scenario, it worked out for me and my child. That’s not true for every case and, as Nicki stated, there are many unfortunate examples to back that up.

I don’t believe saying “congratulations on getting lucky” would make for a good speech at either of our “father of the year” ceremonies. My situation made me realize just how easy it is for a person to take advantage of a child when they are thinking and behaving like a predator. My child’s well being is more important to me than my own opportunity to learn from my mistakes–or even her opportunity to learn from her mistakes–so here I am standing by “the man’s” decision and encouraging others to do the same in this case. I don’t want anyone’s rights as a parent to be overruled, but I do want their responsibilities as a parent to be overachieved. To err on the side of safety is not an error at all.

Chris • November 4, 2011 9:47 AM

@Peter: Yes, I was mostly replying to you. I skimmed up for your name after writing and grabbed the wrong one.

This is the part that was confusing about the toys: “Yes, I had broken the “rules”. Blame me.” What’s to blame you for if there were no instances of being wrong? It’s a moot point, really, because it’s a poor comparison to the topic at hand. I don’t believe a rebellion against suggested ages on toddler toys is even a remotely good analogy for this discussion. Your toddler is not learning by example as you pick and choose what toy labels to adhere to from a variety of manufacturers all around the globe while the toys are exclusively used in your home and frequently if not mostly under your supervision. A better analogy would be securing a fake ID so you can take your 16-year-old to bars and clubs with you and then letting her keep it so she can go on her own after you’ve “shown her the right way to behave among drunk 20-somethings.”

I can’t look at the stance you’re taking and say “you’re completely wrong” because we seem to be on much the same page when we don’t go into the details or get off track. The point you seem to be heavily emphasizing is this: “parents know better, and have a better incentive for keeping their offspring safe and healthy than a random business or lawmaker.” We’ve established that no one is trying to legislate away your right to be the decider in your role as parent, so I’ll reiterate the portions I agree with and focus on the parts I do not.

I never disputed that a parent knows what’s best for their child and should be able to choose how to parent. In fact, I directly and explicitly stated that to be the case. It’s a foolish person that does not listen to the experiences and insights of others, though. If your toddler was regularly pitching temper tantrums and your mother said “you did that as a kid and I found that ignoring you made it stop,” would you say “I know what’s best for my kid, so you need to stay out of it”? If a close friend saw the same tantrums and said “I read that kids low on were fussy and irritable,” would you consider that your child’s health may be at risk or would you say “my kids aren’t like other kids–this one just needs discipline”? If you saw on the news that teenage girls did not develop good depth perception until after age 18 and it was the likely cause of most 16- and 17-year-olds’ fatal car accidents, would you say “my daughter is better than those kids–she’s clearly ‘mature’ for her age”? How many degrees of separation are required before facts and recommendations stop applying to you and your children?

I’m not saying that any “general rule” should always overrule your instincts, but I am saying that a responsible parent will take expert guidance as well as input from others into consideration. The more risk is involved, the more data is available, or the more expert the source (in this sense, close to subjects such as childhood development, social networking, or sexual predators), the more weight should be given to their conclusions even if (especially if?) it conflicts with your instincts. That does not mean it should overrule you, but that you need to be wise enough to recognize when you could be overlooking something critical. Being “the parent” does not make you an expert on any specific topic other than the portion of your child’s history that he or she allowed you to know about.

I also never disputed that children will grow up or that they need to learn to face dangers in their lives. I’m not a Facebook user and never have been, so maybe I’m not biased enough on how important it is to help a child become a “me too” at an age younger than the site itself explicitly requires. The initial decision to allow it in our case was not mine; I was overruled by her mother, stepmother, and father. Is helping preteens get on Facebook against their rules really so important as to teach them that it’s OK to lie to get what they want? Is that really the example you want to set for your children just so you have the opportunity to teach them an unrelated lesson that can easily wait until they’re older?

Your child is not outside your care, guidance, or mentoring once he or she reaches the ripe old age of 13. There’s still plenty of time to teach your children how to be responsible sharers of their personal data, how to mitigate or reduce risks, etc. between the ages of 13 and 18 (and beyond since parenting doesn’t end when “experts” or “the government” says your child is an adult, either). As I stated before, the majority of adult Facebook users are not very privacy conscious and, as a result, are unlikely to be well suited for teaching that skill to their own children. It’s a prime example of a parent’s instinct leaving something to yearn for. If you are privacy conscious and well suited for training your teenager to be the same, that’s great. Is it a critical skill for your preteen? Only if you’re already allowing/encouraging him or her to share their personal data.

I realize you might make the decision that it’s OK in your child’s case, but I would ask that you not publicize the idea that it’s a good decision for the general public. It simply isn’t, and trying to change the subject to “you should have the right” (when you already do) leads many people to lose sight of the fact that the dangers are real or that it could very well happen to their kids. If you don’t believe the dangers are there, you’re mistaken. If you believe it happens to other children but not yours because you’re a better parent, then take the high road and continue to encourage “the sheeple” to do the right thing by waiting.

The fact is that bad things still happen to kids that were given the best of parenting, and by definition everyone cannot be the best of parents. We do have to look out for one another as part of the village, and my message to the other villagers is that “privacy and data management lessons” really can wait until the teenage years. Look at the types of parents around us and realize that many of those people are statistically speaking part of the majority of parents that admit to helping their children lie to get into the danger zone. If you recognize that many if not most of those parents should probably respect Facebook’s rules, then man up and say it while keeping quiet that you break the rules because you’re better than them.

For anyone that wants to teach their children that they do not have to reveal their true personal data, that’s a completely different subject and does not apply to the “it’s against the rules, so let’s lie about you being 13 so you can do it anyway” topic. Lying to say you’re 14 when you’re really 13 or saying you were born in July instead of May because you feel Facebook collects too much personal information and abuses your trust is a different topic.

Chris • November 5, 2011 9:15 AM

@Jenny

Do my observations and experiences influence my beliefs and opinions? Of course. Logic and reason also influence my beliefs and opinions. I’ve yet to see anyone produce a logical argument against respecting a company’s plainly stated agreement for “doing business” with them OR for teaching their children that it’s acceptable to lie about their age (or anything else) to get what they want. To answer your specific question, though, my stepdaughter’s experience did not alter my belief about this subject:

“The initial decision to allow it in our case was not mine; I was overruled by her mother, stepmother, and father.”

I have not disputed any of the reasonable points anyone has made here including parental rights (though I focus more on parental responsibilities), the necessity to teach children about privacy and data management, and the fact that dangers should and will be faced as part of children growing up and throughout their adult lives. I realize some have twisted my words by applying them to unrelated extreme situations such as wearing “a helmet and body armor” to walk outdoors, but I have tried to stay on topic and my statements apply directly to what’s being discussed here. It seems I’ve spent more effort showing that I recognize, acknowledge, respect, and agree with other people’s unrelated points than showing that they have yet to address my point at all.

If it was not clear, my point is that leading by example is a critical part of every parent’s responsibility and showing them that you believe it’s acceptable to lie to get what they want with the result of placing them in a potentially dangerous situation is irresponsible in addition to counterproductive. I thought that was logical even before our own experience and I could have made the point without referencing our experience at all, but I tossed it in as yet another example that “it really does happen and could even happen to your child.” I apologize if that reference served as a distraction from the point.

I don’t believe there’s some magical age at which all children become adults or “ready” for swimming with sharks in the social networking pool, but I do believe that a parent’s bias toward their own child’s “readiness” as well as their desire to make their child happy frequently influence their decisions in a subjective manner. I’m also not biased by our circumstances to believe a predator will target every preteen that uses Facebook (again, directly stated in a prior post). I do believe that saying “there are dangers there and Facebook says you have to be 13, but we’re going to lie so that you can do it anyway” does not send the message that one fully appreciates those dangers or that rules and honesty are respected in your home.

I do appreciate the discussion, but I think I’ve invested too much time beating this horse to death without getting a reason-based rebuttal on what I’m actually trying to convey. Again, that could be my fault for being so verbose, not being specific enough, or letting irrelevant topics distract from the point. I’ll step out of it, let others have “the last word” (as long as no one specifically requests a reply from me), and consider their opinions as I always do. However, I would also like to hear from others that agree with what I’m saying if they’re out there. Yes, I saw the stats from the referenced study and was shown that I was in the minority years beforehand. How much of a minority am I really in here?