Schneier on Security

Clive Robinson • November 3, 2010 9:29 AM

There is a reason why those with psychiatry qualifications are often exempt from doing jury service…

We know that even original thought does not come without influence on the person. That is why we have “brainstorming”.

We know that commities and other small assemblies of individuals usually develope a common ethos we call it “groupthink”

We know that those who go against a group are usually evicted from the group.

We also know the power of suggestion can be used to put words in peoples mouths.

We also know from experimentation that the sense of belonging is a powerful tool to use against people and from the tricks of “turning a back” or “sending to coventry”. Few people can resist even these simple techniques.

In the UK we are seeing police officers involved in a so called “lawful shooting” playing games in court when giving testimony under oath. In that they have used “song titles” in a “one up manship” game.

Thus we know that people in groups are easily manipulated, and few are capable of resisting this sort of control.

We even give it a name “grooming”.

Knowing this why on earth do we still belive this sort of nonsense from the likes of TLA’s?

Clive Robinson • November 4, 2010 12:26 AM

@ Joe,

“Why doesn’t the FBI use these techniques on real criminals”

Your definition of a “real criminal” might not be those of the FBI or their political masters responsable for granting them tax payer dollars.

For instance as there are so many bits of legislation I would guess that 98-100% of the adult US population has commited atleast one “real statute crime” in their lives.

It is this way in most so called “civilised countries” it’s a consiquence of not having sunset clauses included in all (and I do mean all) legislation.

I know as a UK resident I commit various ancient crimes (like eating mincepies at the winter festival, not practicing with my longbow on Sundays etc etc). Then there are the more modern crimes that many vehicle driver / owners commit on an almost daily basis and most at some point.

So your definition,

“like the investment bankers trading in worthless derivatives or pharmaceutical executives who conceal lethal drug side effects?”

Might actually not be commiting “real statute crimes” because they pay lobyists to stop their activities being legislated against (you only have to look at the money being thrown around by the banking sector at the moment to see this in action).

Or for some political reason by way of funding their crimes are being ignored. One such is big bussiness it is mainly run by those with ethics and morals that most people not being sociopaths would find significantly objectionable. However to the politico’s that control the funding of Law Enforcment Agencies Big Bussiness is “growing the economy”…

Either way you need to examine the political system and address that to remove the “real criminals”.

Clive Robinson • November 5, 2010 7:22 AM

@ Davi Ottenheimer,

“Add that even terrorists have standards Someone easily fooled or influenced might be fodder for terrorists, but at the same time they also might present too high a risk to be recruited as they might turn/break or just be sloppy and give everything away.”

Maybe not, consider the case of Corporal Hotfoot and Captain Underpants.

Both are more of a danger to themselves than anything else. And thus would not be the sort of person you would stand anywhere but a long way behind in a battle.

However they are also the sort that act as “lightning rods” not just for disaster but the attention of the authorities (if they where awake).

So you know darn well as a recruiter for the cause they are going to be a real problem whatever you do with them. You would hope they are just going to go away but you know they are not and the longer they hang around the more of a danger they are going to be to your organisation.

The simple solution is to get them out of the way fast. There are several ways you can do this but bodies turning up on rubbish heaps or street corners is not one that you would want to consider in the west. Likewise they are likley to have relatives that would become worried if they just disappeared.

A potential solution is to feed their fantasy and take them into a faux organisation outside of a western country and prep them for a “showboat” operation.

But why “showboat” and not do something for real?

Firstly since 9/11 and three thousand deaths it is going to be difficult to produce more spectacular results.

Secondly 9/11 had the desired effect of getting the “great satan” onto their home turff where they have a chance of inflicting not just further damage on Western Countries but also have the trrops of the same countries committing various crimes and atrocities thus improve recruiting for the likes of insurgants.

However wars cost a lot of money thus those who contribute resources other than their brains or bodies need to be “Kept on Message”.

The easiest way to do this is to get the west to harm it’s self via the paranoia the press and politicians raise and exploit.

However the fastest way to lose the financial and other resources is to kill women and children needlessly.

The likes of attacks like Mumbi attack are actually counter productive for the declared aims of Osama bin laden.

So what you need is a couple of attacks that are effectivly going to fail which get high news value but zero casualties which is what a “showboat” or “fundraiser” attack is all about.

The problem is you need a fall guy who you can reasonably expect is going to eventually reveal everything they know.

Solution take the problematic “walter mitty” type feed their fantasies in a harmless environment where they actually learn nothing of import about the organisation and send them off on an attack that has so little chance of working it can only be for “fundraising” and reminding the West they are still there.