Schneier on Security

Clive Robinson • March 9, 2024 9:12 PM

@ JG5

‘Filed under “Aberfan.”’

A friend of both my father and myself was from very close to Aberfan and knew much about the human side of the disaster. His father was a baker from just up the Taff and tirelessly provided with others without thought or charge food for those involved with the rescue or desperately waiting for news on their loved ones.

He told of behaviours that were both brave and heart rendering. As well as the callow and crass behaviour of press, authorities, and the police.

The cause of the disaster was an object lesson in stupidity by authority. There were clear warnings of the danger not just shortly before but from many years prior. But as is so often the case “authority was implacable in it’s actions” and chose to ignore all else. The cost was enormous, not just on the day of the disaster but ongoing.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aberfan_disaster

One thing my friend did say was that there was almost certainly misidentifications of the dead children.

One thing he had personally witnessed was a father just saying “yes” that a mutilated corpse was his child. Almost certainly knowing it was not, as it gave his wife who could not bare to look closure, not the desperate soul destroying uncertainty and hope that “maybe…”

Also that a sports personality who had rushed to help punched a reporter to the ground, because the reporter was trying to photograph the sportsman to make a story…

Clive Robinson • March 10, 2024 9:05 AM

@ lurker,

Re : Moses Haabwa

I remember that face, but it was less plump back then… But it was “Colonel” something else. He was supposedly a General’s aid but appeared to be the brains running things [1].

As I’ve mentioned a friend and I used to manufacture low cost but high quality broadcast systems.

We got a lot of business from the Mediterranean down the length of Africa and we joked sometimes we were as “wide as Africa”, because we had kind of brought “East End Barrow Boy” mentality to the broadcast industry.

So meeting various types of African Royalty, Generals, Senior Governmental Ministers, Religious leaders, and even alleged war lords was “situation normal”.

Many were “fake” but as long as the money was real not our concern.

They could come and collect or we would send by FedEx / UPS etc. We preferred they collect as they could see the kit go through FAT (factory acceptance testing) and get training in setup and maintaining[2].

[1] This is not uncommon when it comes to “propaganda” schemes, the “senior rank” was either their as window dressing or to collect a bribe or ten. Such is the way “African business” is done. We never needed to bribe, because when told “I can always go to XXX” our stock response was,

“You’ld pay three times as much and get ripped off, because the equipment will fail within weeks and you’ll not get it fixed. So if you want to learn that the hard way feel free, Oh and we’ll still be here when you come back”.

We’d then get up and go. Some came back in hours others well they had to get “self educated” first.

But yup that face looks familiar, one reason I remember it is the “General” tried to pay with fifty pound notes that looked slightly odd… So we went down to a bank and they got fresh cash over the counter which we then banked immediately as there was a distinct “con-artist” vibe going on. It was that “face” or it’s twin that did the bank transaction…

[2] One exception was an Egyptian Tank group Commander, who had had British training including “Hearts and Minds” he figured that playing music from the tanks and on VHF and AM saved a lot on ammunition both short and long term… He had been “introduced to us” by someone sort of official from my past. My friend went out and trained quite a few of the troops and got to play with a few things.

Another as I’ve mentioned before was when I went to a small Middle East nation to show them how to use jamming equipment for bomb disposal and close protection work. I ended up playing tennis –a game I was truly bad at– in the sports club at the hotel. It was a friendly the club set up, and the person I played with well they were good very good, and I got well and truly beaten, they later went on to run the country…

Clive Robinson • March 10, 2024 10:08 PM

@ vas pup, ALL,

Re : Fact Check,

“@Clive said “the 3Ls (CIA, FBI,NSA)”
“

You might want to check again…

Because not me…

Also,

“So, all UK diplomats and UK spies are basically have same chief versus CIA in US – see above.”

Not all “UK spies”[1] are in MI6, some are in GCHQ then there are those in MI5 and also what once used to be part of the Met Police Special Branch that ended up as part of something called the “Serious Organised Crime Agency”(SOCA) for a while,

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serious_Organised_Crime_Agency

Until not just SOCA but CEOP became serious political embarrassments. So the got replaced/amalgamated under a new “non ministerial government Dept” called the “National Crime Agency”(NCA) as part of the “rearrange the deckchairs on the Titanic” type political reshuffling that happened to hide the shame of certain female Government Ministers…). So I suspect as it deals with “international crime” that’s where the handlers/officers ended up.

The fun thing was from the get go SOCA was a liability in oh so many ways. It was supposedly to be “ultra secretive” as a supper special Police Agency. But as I’ve mentioned before, their South West Communications center had a sufficiently large Identity Plate on the gate it was difficult to miss if you parked in the public carpark it was on the edge of. Also it was on the other side of the road to a pub that I used to frequent that had very very strong relations with the television series “The Bill”. And yes the gate got shown on TV…

Fun side fact the actress “Jaime Murray” who played HG Wells in Warehouse 13 is the daughter of one of The Bill’s long term actors “Bill Murray”. And yes she and he are both other famous people I’ve bumped into in my travels back just inside this century as they both had parts in some episodes of The Bill.

[1] They are not “spies” but “case officers” / “Handlers” of actual “agents” and even “contractors” (thus the fictional “James Bond” was an “officer” the people in the other country doing the actual spying were the “secret agents” it’s a mistake that’s still made by journalists). The officers/handlers are usually “hands off” it’s the agents that spy and contractors do specialist “hands on” on a case by case basis. Back in and before the 1980’s for instance MI5 officers got the likes of Post Office technical staff to put in monitoring systems even in the likes of East Germany as seen by “Operation stopwatch”,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gold

GCHQ also used Post Office technical staff but also had members of the Royal Air force and Navy submariners doing some very dangerous activities as they were “Not Under diplomatic Cover”(NOC) thus if caught by the Russians could be executed. A fate that underwater expert Buster Crabb supposedly suffered,

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-34605107

Even though several UK Prime Ministers tried to stop the stupidity, the security services just ignored the prohibitions. Because the “Five-Eyes” of Intel Agencies have always seen themselves above their respective “national governments” and “elected politicians”. The result of which has almost always been “embarrassing incidents”. You might remember the nonsense of the Met Police under cover officers that fathered children with unsuspecting women then just “disappeared” eventually one tenacious individual got to the bottom of it and started legal proceedings for “maintenance” and to use the parlance of the time that was when “the bl@@dy wheels came off”.

Clive Robinson • March 11, 2024 8:51 AM

@ ResearcherZero, ALL,

Re : Michael Gove stupidity.

“By presenting a skewed version of reality, politicians can influence voters, undermine opposition, and secure their own political interests.”

The reason some “Tory” politicians have come out against Mr Gove, is that they know in their hearts and minds that the definition covers just about everything the Tory Party actually stands for…

Thus it will give Local Councils the ability to “kick the Tories into Touch”…

Something some US States tried to do with the doh’ gnarled and some courts said –right or wrong depending on your perspective as an observer– they could not.

Clive Robinson • March 11, 2024 4:02 PM

@ fib, ALL,

Re : Politicians proving they know nothing about anything.

“Congress should make it illegal, the report recommends, to train AI models using more than a certain level of computing power.”

What a waste of time…

Look at it this way,

What ever measure of “computing power” you use, there will be easy ways to exceed it that people will simply use.

For instance, how do you measure the “computing power” of an algorithm built entirely from logic gates as opposed to sequential or even parallel computing models?

How about analogue circuits?

There are algorithms built into quite small FPGA’s that outperform by 500:1 or more things that 64bit RISC cores running up in the GHz range can do.

Likewise analogue circuits made of just a few op-amps can outperform microcontrollers very easily.

As I mentioned the other day the original Speech Compression CODEC for CELP running on a Cray super computer took over thirty times longer. It also consumed many tens of kilowatts of power[1]. Now it’s done in a tiny little chip and as little as a milliwatt of power.

But…

We also know that Intelligence is not measured in computing power.

The three pounds of omega 3 and omega 6 fat connective tissue and other organic molecules that occupies our skulls has next to know computing power yet in most cases is assumed to possess quite superior intelligence…

Thus “computing power” is at best “of the moment” and extremely arbitrary when and if we even remotely get close to something we might call digital intelligence.

[1] Back many decades ago around the time that CELP was implemented, the SciFi robots called Cylons in Battle Star Galactica were also called “toaster heads”… Human brains just don’t even use a fraction of the power of a toaster, but your kitchen toaster hardly uses a fraction of the power an LLM computer uses…

Clive Robinson • March 11, 2024 11:46 PM

@ lurker,

Re : My neck of the woods.

It’s a bit of the usual press deliberately making angst when they should actually be reporting honestly and correctly with thugs, criminals and gangsters killing maiming and worse around the world.

The Mum of three is seen by many as a “glam mum” and gets followed around and photographed incessantly by less than pleasant paparazzi shoving lenses where lenses should not be shoved. All at the behest of MSM editors that lets be honest have been found in the past to be criminal sociopaths some with spousal abuse crimes hanging over their heads. These people have hired other sociopathic criminals to repeatedly commit crimes that are the psychological equivalent of home invasion and worse.

The mum’s husband has had a run of legal success against these MSM sociopaths and thus they are out to get revenge etc etc.

The mum has had a private and I should imagine quite stressful medical related intervention recently. As I know from experience surgery can have a myriad of consequences you don’t realise[1]

The mum has a hobby like many have, to help her not just relax, but give her creative side a way to get out and enjoy it’s self.

In her case it’s photography so rather than have another “home invasion” by psycho paparazzi or worse some stuffy formal photographer it was a “family affair” with several rapid snaps taken. Quick and relatively painless for the children (which lets face it won’t sit still even if you strap them to chairs with velcro[2]). But as with all home photos one child will not have their best smile at the same moment as the other children or will fidget etc etc.

So do what a lot of home photographers do, take the best bits from the series of snaps and put them together in photoshop.

Not a crime and no intention to deceive just get the best smiles etc from over a few seconds into one still.

But no, those MSM sociopaths have to invent stories about how the mum is secretly very ill etc and “there is a conspiracy to with hold what the public should know” etc etc…

So Mum’s hobby trashed with what no doubt will be the start of what will be more and more revenge attacks on her by the MSM sociopaths to get at the husband to show him who is “right by might”.

I sense the vile scabby old hand of an embittered old git Rupert “the bare faced liar” Murdoch behind it, as it fits right into his standard MO.

I hear the scabby old slug is getting married again, well one can but hope the venue gets washed out “by tempest” or other “act of god” etc as it would be shall we say biblically ironic.

[1] Due to significant and debilitating infections caused by ingrowing toe nails. I finally had little choice but to have them removed. It’s a quite “medieval process and not something you would consider “home video material” unless your name was something quite gothic sounding to a Victorian author. But there are side effects in that it takes weeks for the exposed flesh to heal so they have to be dressed in bandages that have antiseptic properties and very importantly kept dry. These bandages stop you putting shoes or boots on so open toed sandles like “Jesus Boots” have to be worn and they don’t have any rain or puddle splash stopping ability, so I was aware that I was going to be indoors when it gets cloudy etc but having survived fairly unscathed what is in effect two years of C19 lockdown I was not worried by that. Two unexpected consequences however. Firstly is my solar powered watch stopped yesterday afternoon. Something I can easily solve by taking it off and putting it on the window sill. The second is washing my hair… As you will appreciate taking a bath or shower will get the feet wet or if you try water proof bags make your footing at best unstable if not dangerous. Apparently they do make special boots/gaiters but they are not available in the size I need as well as being about the cost of a months food and other necessities etc. So I’d excepted the fact that washing was going to be the old style flannel, soap etc at the sink. However I had not realised that due to other medical conditions I can not stand and bend over the bath especially with my eyes closed without getting giddy or unbalanced to the point of crashing over. Not a problem I thought I can just kneel… Only you can not due to the toes having pressure put on the wounds either from bending or having the wound face down on the floor. So I’ve had to make “dry shampoo” and sit in a chair and comb it through… The downside is as it’s “soft soap grated into isopropyl alcohol” you smell like a drunk for quite a while.

[2] Some years ago there was a TV advert that had something like 50 babies in romper suits sitting up in what looked like theater seats. People wondered how they had done it. Well as expected with several cameras but shocking to some they had sewn velcro to the seat covers and the backs of the romper suits. Instant “you can not do that it’s cruel” from the peanut gallery… Who either did not have children or could not think. By UK law babies, and children up to around eight years old, and sometimes older, have to be forcibly restrained for lengthy periods of time by being put in full harness or similar car seats so in a car accident they don’t become low velocity low flying missiles. Also as some parents will admit is babies get “left” in car seats when they go shopping or visit friends etc etc. For thousands of years mothers have been doing similar and it’s called swaddling, so they can carry their baby with them whilst they do the daily essentials.

Clive Robinson • March 12, 2024 1:14 AM

@ SpaceLifeForm, ALL,

re: Post-Quantum Crypto.

Nice to hear from you I hope you are well?

With regards,

“Worth your time to read”

Yup, it is quite readable for what is a fairly dry though very important subject.

As you and others are aware there is a bit of controversy over “hybrid cryptographic systems” using “both pre and post Quantum Crypto”.

Part of it is down to what people think “hybrid cryptographic systems” are.

That is are they individual but complete and independent cryptographic algorithms that are chained together. Or are they amalgamated in some way such as by using the same key and multiple sub key generation or just “mashed together” at the algorithm level of code.

My view goes back to WWII with “super encryption”. That is you have encryption for the message at what we would now call the user layer of the stack. And there would also be transmission level encryption from node to node in the communications network that was once called “link encryption”.

Few realise that user level encryption is aimed at protecting against or limiting “insider attacks”, whilst link level encryption is aimed at protecting against “outsider attacks” both cryptographic and traffic analysis.

Back in WWII the user level was done with what is now regarded as the quite weak Typex Cryptographic system or a paper strip analogue of it. Whilst the link encryption was done by the theoretically perfectly secure Rockex “One Time Tape” system[1].

Such segregated systems were much easier to build when much of it was manually done, it just needed distance, brick walls and windows that could not overlook the work. Thus people and the information could be kept apart.

Not so these days where ICT means segregation and correct electronics and thus system design[2] are seen as “not cost effective”. For years now I’ve warned about,

“Efficiency v Security”

Yet it’s still not given consideration and why I say,

“The use of so called secure messaging apps on computers and smart devices is in no way secure.”

That is there is no segregation between the “communications end point” and the “security end point” thus an attacker need not bother attacking the cryptographic system just the “p155 poor” Commercial grade “Operating System”(OS) security which as we know is “easy peasy lemon squeezy” and extremely undesirable if it’s your lemons that are getting gripped (and why ransomware is so effective).

Thus it should be the properly segregated overall system that should be “hybrid”[3] not the one unsegregated commercial grade CPU, hardware, software, or truly crappy insecure OS from the likes of Microsoft or Google etc.

But hey the truth is not convenient, and as we know “Convenience is King” with the consumer even though it comes with side orders of insecurity for free.

[1] Whilst the One Time Tape system is theoretically as secure as the pencil and paper “One Time Pad” system the practical implementation was not[2]. The reason the “bitwise XOR function” was done with “Post Office type 1200 relays” that had different pull in and release times. Thus the timing edges leaked the “additive” key to the line as a “side channel” making it easily accessible to anyone who could put an oscilloscope or chart recorder across the line.

[2] Back then the term EmSec had yet to be invented and I suspect likewise the codeword TEMPEST had not been selected either. In theory even knowing this in the US today is still a crime as is knowing the protective measures against TEMPEST. Even though they are now in fact legal requirements under international “Electro-Magnetic Compatibility”(EMC) legislation and regulation…

[3] A look back on this blog shows I’ve repeatedly talked quite openly for well over a decade now about how to segregate systems that use consumer / commercial grade components and it’s something I actually do rather than preach. But I first started designing secure crypto hardware back when DES was still considered the King of algorithms… It’s also why I talk of “energy gapping” not “air gapping” systems to segregate them. Because by definition energy can not be constrained only bandwidth limited and dissipated over distance (what TEMPEST effectively does).

Clive Robinson • March 12, 2024 8:29 AM

@ ResearcherZero, ALL,

Re : Small Government is no government and death follows.

“Plane dropped hundreds of feet after after one of its instruments reportedly failed.”

It’s a bit more than “one instrument” from what’s been indicated the entire flight console went out so “no instruments” and “no control” and the aircraft became like a stone and dropped at least 500 feet or more than 1% of it’s altitude in just a second or two.

The fact that 50 people or more flew upwards from their seats and crashed into the cabin roof indicates the aircraft was descending markedly faster than gravity.

Not much more we can say on that till we get more information.

But we can note the manufacturer of the aircraft has since what is effectively deregulation developed an appalling record of issues.

Why the “deregulation” well politics, caused a Federal Agency to be downsized and a very important part of ensuring passenger safety was passed over to the industry to self impose and manage.

The fact that this manufacturer has had very repeated and significant failings in self regulating should tell people why this sort of Government downsizing is bad not just for US citizens but all people in the world.

I don’t fly for medical reasons, but having spent much of my life designing safety critical systems from small robots right through to the largest industrial installations known to most people including aerospace systems I can honestly say I regard such downsizing as “a clear and present danger” that not only has killed hundreds of people, it will continue to do so for quite some time to come, because the damage has been done, and all that can now be done is work it out of the system. But for “commercial reasons” we know that is not going to happen…

Thus expect more such issues with this manufacturers products. My advise,

“If you can stay away from all their products”

Why?

Because this is a failure of management from the very top all the way down to the factory floor and into all their products. Worse it’s not by accident or incompetence but deliberate calculation thus design driven by neo-con mantra etc.

Clive Robinson • March 12, 2024 9:28 AM

@ Bruce, ALL,

Re : Software with physical agency.

From design experience going back into five decades in both hardware and software in critical and safety critical systems for health, petro-chem industry, all types of vehicles, and aerospace I can say a number of things in some considerable depth.

However put simply,

In the 1980’s I started doing AI via fuzzy logic and expert systems to implement systems that had “physical agency”. This was at one time called “Soft AI” and was used to control systems in highly constrained environments. Over time there has been changes,

Firstly, such systems are nolonger called AI systems but their root functionality has not gone away. They are now considered just a small part of “control systems” technology.

Secondly, the very hard constraints of the 1980’s have been not just broadened but in some cases almost entirely removed.

Thirdly, the mentality of run fast and learn by breaking things in such unconstrained environments is I think something that most sensible people would if they knew about it would give them significant pause for thought if not alarm.

Fourthly, the relationship around money has become extremely toxic, and as the old saying says “Poison goes where poison is allowed” thus,

“The deadliest toxin is oft served in the most attractive vessel.”

Something that those involved with AI systems should take to heart.

I could go one but two things I have noted,

1, AI can only do harm where it has the agency to do so.

2, AI will not become anything even remotely close to intelligence unless it is given free physical agency by which it can learn about the environment it’s in.

Obviously these are in effect at odds with each other and currently we are nowhere close to having the second be anything close to safe.

Why?

Because we supposedly intelligent beings have not learned enough to in the main recognise our own follies let alone those of the things we create.

Untill we gain considerably in that direction then the first note applies.

So we should not be giving physical agency, not just to the “Nouveau AI” that is being “spin doctored” into the meaningless AGI –for money reasons– but even the old AI the name of which has been washed out like a blood stain from the rug the bodies have been swept under in the past.

Let me put it another way,

“Do you want the bodies of your loved ones to be the fast track steps to educating developers blinded by the greed of promises of wealth?”

Promises I note that will never be delivered upon to the developers.

Personally I can not see humans will learn enough about such control systems to make them safe enough to be given free physical agency, in my lifetime or that of children just coming into the world.

We’ve a lot to learn and what is effectively “self harm” is not the way we should be going.

There are plenty of control systems going rouge that should make that obvious.

Remember every “blue screen of death” is evidence of a control system failure. Likewise hang ups and glitches. Give them physical agency and things will drop out of the sky and already have with hundreds of deaths and injuries.

How many more to be swept under the rug before we humans learn enough?

Clive Robinson • March 12, 2024 9:48 AM

@ echo,

Re : claim or fact?

“One person identified that her face had been photoshopped in from a ten year old Vogue magazine picture.”

Just a personal claim or an independently “verified claim”?

As you say you have a personal interest.

“How do I know this? I watched it unfold in real time direct from some of the people involved.“

Yet no “verification” given by you just hearsay.

Like others I stuck to what was at the time were “verified” by allegedly reputable sources.

Not unsubstantiated after the fact claims that you give out and claim you were primarily involved with.

As you and others have done in the past,

“Citations required from primary and secondary independent sources.”

If you fail to supply anything else such as your usual –let’s just call them excuses– then you know what people will think.

Clive Robinson • March 12, 2024 10:56 AM

@ echo, ALL,

Re : Your claim or fact?

In a piece titled,

“No, Kate did not use her Vogue cover in her family portrait – here’s how to tell
“

Others appear to not just disagree with your story but give reasons why they think it’s bogus.

https://inews.co.uk/news/kate-vogue-cover-family-portrait-edited-2951753

Oh you say,

“from a ten year old Vogue magazine picture.”

It appears the Vogue cover in question is not ten years old either but much more recent…

How are the “facts” stacking up at your end?

I could go on but I think the point’s been made based on the simplest of OSInt so far.

I know there are people who post here from time to time that can really dig in to OSInt, and I not just tip but lift my hat to them.

For instance remember that Donald Trump election Stolen lawyer who was apparently “hitting the vino bottle in her kitchen”?

Well they somehow traced her home from just the photo right down to not just the street address but the bus stop outside and a video walk through of the house from a Realator…

What would happen if they started to dig… After all you’ve claimed you are close / personal with what the article linked above calls the “senior social media editor for a UK national newspaper” who apparently claims the faux identification as her own work…

@ Folks,

There could be real “popcorn value” in this so put on the pan and draw up the comfy seat.

Clive Robinson • March 12, 2024 1:49 PM

@ fib, All,

Re : Physical Agency as a requirment for sentience / inteligence.

“That is a requirement for animal conceptualization of the world. It must be a requirement for animal level AGI.”

I would say it’s a requirement for any kind of sentience and ability to reason in any environment.

Clive Robinson • March 12, 2024 1:58 PM

@ echo, ALL,

Re : Every ones a in your book.

“Unless it’s the dastardly transgenders who don’t just work from OSInt…”

Nobody mentioned gender but you yet again…

Every time you reach for the keyboard you show your prejudices whilst playing to the peanut gallery that like Elvis “have left the building”.

Because you don’t even make a credible “Social Justice Warrior”(SJW).

Kind of the “fantastic plastic” version that amuses them to young to know any better.

After all “Dastardly” that belongs back in the “Whacky Races” cartoons.

Clive Robinson • March 13, 2024 6:11 AM

Hmm held by auto-mod again (further proof that AI will fail 😉 So time to partition as always my apologies for the naughty robot 😉

@ echo, ALL,

Part 1,

“So I drop by here and see a wall of your obtuse offensiveness?”

Funny had you not noticed what others have noticed?

I ignore you except when you send a wall of scat in my direction or you make obvious lies that need calling out.

As for “wall” well if you were not so self entitled you would realise that others have the right of reply in a free society… But I guess you don’t want a “free society”.

Which is why I’ve asked @Moderator on several occasions (and for our hosts own defence) to leave your comments so people can see you for what you actually are by the historic record…

That is by the written word from your own fingers, what you are actually trying to do, thus can not later deny or fantasize did not happen (a recurrent or leitmotiv with you).

Clive Robinson • March 13, 2024 6:22 AM

As always my apologies for the naughty robot 😉

@ echo, ALL,

Part 3,

That is you actually claimed to be in with it as one of those reptiles, committing the privacy invasion and personally knew some of the people posting fake-news to make it all worse for the woman who just wanted to be left alone.

Kind of sums you up and all from words from your own fingertips, as,

1, A lier,
2, Narcissistic in nature,
3, Reptilian in behaviour.
4, Who is incompetent,
5, A clear outsider,
6, Desperately trying to push in.

And quite a few other failings as a very bad “gender bigot” doing exactly what you claim others are doing.

But again in this current post of yours you claim to have been intimately involved,

“I watched it unfold in real time. As her friends and girlfriend discovered her suicide note”

Really? sorry but yet again that’s not a believable claim by you. So do we add,

7, Mythomania

To the list?

Clive Robinson • March 13, 2024 6:29 AM

As always my apologies for the naughty robot 😉

@ echo, ALL,

Part 5,

But honestly, do yourself a favour go try knocking at another door, they might be daft enough for a short while to be welcoming till they also realise by the faults you appear incapable of hiding, what you are.

@ Moderator,

Again for the sake of this blogs host, please do not delete @echo’s posts as I have good reason to suspect he is next on her list of scalps to try to claim.

Clive Robinson • March 13, 2024 11:54 AM

@ ALL,

Would you drink beer made from sewerage water?

Apparently it does not “taste 541t” or is as “weak as p155”, it is in fact Award wining,

https://www.theregister.com/2024/03/11/climate_change_means_beer_made/

All jokes asid in the US due to mad behaviour potable water is now extraordinary scarce in some places.

So the notion of not sending wastewater back into the environment for dilution and other ways of reducing pollutants kind of has logic behind it.

That said carbon filters and reverse osmosis only goes some way towards cleaning wastewater up.

A better but way slower way is to use plants as evaporators. Put overly simply plants take in not at all clean water via their roots and release high quality water via their leaves. In the process the “bad stuff” stays in the plant. You harvest and use the plant to make alcohol fuel and reduce the remaining sludge to ash as part of a CHP system. The ash then gets chemically treated to recover the nasties that are often quite valuable to industry (NASA did a lot of research into this, which is hardly surprising when each liter of water lifted to the ISS costs something like $10,000 USD).

However the most preferable way is not to put nasties in the waste water in the first place, in fact not have waste water at all from industry etc. That is get industry to properly clean and recycle water on their own site.

Clive Robinson • March 13, 2024 5:44 PM

@ echo,

Re : Deflecting and not telling the truth.

Part 2,

But worse, you still carry on with your rote rhetoric that shows just how inexpert you are contrary to what you try to pretend.

Take your latest,

“Not some ACAB rolling up and screaming “No it’s not” in my face followed up by performative fist bumping of their in-group.”

Nothing of that sort has happened here.

As can be seen ‘you shoved your oar in’ in a discrete aside and did your usual ‘I’m the expert bow down before me I know because I’m in the knowing’ nonsense that turns out was just falsehoods, lies, or both.

You did not know what you were talking about and your claims of being part of it completely false.

As for “some ACAB rolling up” do you even know what ACAB means?

Your incorrect usage suggests you do not have a clue. Funny thing is I’ve known since the 1960’s from people who took part in strikes where it was used.

It is not about individuals as your usage implies but the law enforcement organisation / agency.

It’s usage started back in the 1940’s towards the end of WWII by people out on strike protesting, those who we now might call pickets. The politicians of the day gave orders that the police were to drive them back to work with maximum use of truncheons / billy clubs and the like. Skulls were to be broken and blood was to flow as a lesson to others. Only those strikers were a little more aware than either the politicians or the police senior officers realised.

So the policy did not actually do what the politicians and senior police officers hoped, and support for the strikers increased significantly.

ACAB is a four letter acronym of the phrase “All Coppers Are 13astards” that got chanted on the lines and it got chalked up on walls and other places over night by not just union members and their families but others including those that had been “demobbed” but were jobless and other workers who could “see what was heading down the turnpike”. It carried on being used into the 1980’s and the “Mad Maggie” era just forty years ago. After which it went into decline untill “Black Lives Matter” brought it back. I’m guessing by the way you’ve used it you just heard it with regards SJWs and their ilk using it by rote not knowledge.

As for your ‘screaming “No it’s not” in my face’ nobody here has done that. You were told that what had been said by two people was based only on what had been reported upto that point in time. But you took such exception, people looked up things by which time what you had claimed had been strongly refuted and it became clear that you were not being honest.

At each step since you have dug the hole for yourself even deeper, so much so I do not think you will ever be able to climb out of it here. And any respect others might once have given you is now long gone.

But worse for you it’s also brought many of your negative traits into the light for all to clearly see.

One of which is you are still not learning even when you’ve been plainly told…

Have a look at an article by a

Clive Robinson • March 14, 2024 8:02 PM

@ Bruce, ALL,

Proof LLM AI makes a good surveilance tool. Not just for the AI owner, but passive comms channel observers even of “encrypted traffic”.

https://arstechnica.com/security/2024/03/hackers-can-read-private-ai-assistant-chats-even-though-theyre-encrypted/

As I keep saying the AI business model is

“Bedazzle, Beguile, Bewitch, Befriend, and Betray”

In no part of that is “security” or “privacy” a consideration unless it effects AI owner “benefits” like “Shareholder value” or senior exec “benefits”.

Clive Robinson • March 15, 2024 5:39 AM

@ ResearcherZero,

Re : Section 793(e)

“Ordinary people are routinely charged under this provision. Not just former presidents.”

Yes… Oh and there is a dark side to it that pops up every so often.

Note the wording of the section, it’s got a higher weasel word density than you’ll find in any speech at a GOP Fringe Rally.

Basically you can write a document using public information that you have full copyright over and have sent out for inclusion in a journal etc.

When some one in “authority” decides you are “inconvenient” they can classify it for not just unstated reasons but they are not required to inform you.

At that point you are guilty “auto-magically” as there is no defence.

The same logic applies to a collection of research materials that were not just unclassified but in the public domain.

One of the arguments used is the so called “jigsaw argument” that actually has no legislative basis (it’s also called a “critical mass argument” in some circles).

Basically it’s that at some point there is sufficient information that taken together create a picture from the myriad of individual pieces. The argument is that you as a person of knowledge in a given domain of research, should have “reason to believe [the information] could be used to the injury of…”. Thus are guilty, where as a “librarian” or other “archivist” would not, thus is not guilty.

You either go to jail for the rest of your life, or are bankrupted by trying to defend yourself.

Back in the era of UK PM “Mad Maggie” Thatcher there is evidence she wanted similar added to UK legislation and it was politically resisted at the time.

You might remember that a decade ago similar arguments were put forth about the “Ed Snowden Trove”, and the public, not just those with Security Clearance. That is if you as a member of the public kept a stack of newspapers with the individual stories in, you would be guilty under that bit of legislation…

Clive Robinson • March 15, 2024 7:02 AM

@ ResearcherZero,

Re : Scotty from “self” marketing memorial dinner.

“Canned due to lack of response.”

Que “canned laughter” and “fake applause” off at stage left.

Then “strike up the band” with “March of the Clowns”,

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BuZb8TkR80U

Clive Robinson • March 19, 2024 8:17 AM

@ ResearcherZero, ALL,

Re : Unreasoned Political cruelty.

The Scientific American article is actually not that surprising, nor that it’s more obvious in the US.

It’s a logical conclusion over “Capitalism” and “greed” and the vast sums of money involved.

Rome had “Bread and Circuses” which was all about bringing “blood sports” to the masses to buy their base pleasures.

Many modern sports are likewise non participatory “blood sports” and sadly many religious groups are heading back that way.

I guess the question is how long before “Witch burning” and the like comes back?

I’ve noted previously that the MSM to increase viewer figure thus income quite deliberately “rouse the beast” and once woken it needs either blood or more rousing to sait it.

The point is that it also alows “weak men” to posture as “strong men” when the reality is they are basically cowards with no knowledge of anything of substance.

It’s been pointed out that “fascists always loose” not just in wars they start but the societies they mis manage into a mess of stupidity parades of flag waving and drum banging for the idiots.

For a lightly humourous discourse on such “strong men” numpties and their preposterous posturings, cowardly failings, and inability to succeed,

https://acoup.blog/2024/02/23/fireside-friday-february-23-2024-on-the-military-failures-of-fascism/