John February 15, 2022 11:25 AM


Seems to me each citizen has agreed to do what they can to keep this country safe for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

The ‘law’ just tries to help some of the more confused figure out how to help their fellow citizens who are confused, on drugs or otherwise not doing very well.

“The greatest of these is love.”


thor February 15, 2022 1:08 PM

I think that the issues for concern for the CIA “Deep Dive 1” program are that it does not comply with the commonly understood FISA/DoD procedures that I think Congress and the public have come to think all surveillance programs should adhere to. The problem is that this is information collected under E.O. 12333 authorities (specifically not FISA) and CIA is not under DoD, so it does not need to adhere to DoD 5240.01 or follow procedures mandated by the FISC court with respect to this data. I would guess that this is what Wyden is referring to when he says “outside the statutory framework that Congress and the public believe govern this collection”

This is financial data that was probably obtained overseas, possibly even purchased from a commercial source. An example would be if they bought financial transaction data from the Singapore stock exchange, or a credit card payment processor in Dubai. This would be transactions between a foreign bank and a foreign customer, and therefore it would have a presumption that all data would be foreign in nature. Of course there would be American Expats whose transactions would be incidentally captured. When captured, it might not even be obvious that the transactions belong to a US Person. They might only be discovered later.

Under what appear to be the CIA procedures documented in the PCLOB report, there does not appear to be a forced requirement that bulk collected data be filtered as soon as practical after collection, just a “should”. If the data is going through NSA, then NSA/DoD procedures would apply, but once the data is shared to CIA, they might not have their own filtering system. If CIA is buying the data directly, then all bets are off. It also mentions how an algorithm is run on the database that can find US Person data, but it does not purge the record, just masks it. This is contrary to FISA/DoD procedures which says that the data should be removed upon recognition.

That the CIA analysts are missing trainings, don’t have to provide a written justification when they submit their query (and therefore the justifications can’t be audited), and the database doesn’t have age-off procedures are other things that I won’t even go into but are also problematic.

TLDR: CIA has data under EO12333. PCLOB/Congress complains that CIA doesn’t obey FISA/DoD controls. CIA says “its EO12333 data, not FISA, we’re not DoD, get f*ck’d”

Ted February 15, 2022 1:23 PM

I hope the lack of details encourages the appropriate parties to take notice and explore these areas. Without more public information it’s challenging to demand the kind of investigations that bring about substantive changes.

Wasn’t it the 1975 Church Committee that provided the impetus for the creation of the US House and Senate Select Committees on Intelligence?

These almost muted releases of information are certainly curious. I wonder if they will have historical significance?

AlexT February 15, 2022 1:42 PM

Quite frankly who cares? It has been demonstrated times and times again over the past 20y (at least) that there is zero enforcement. FFS (sorry) the CIA has been caught in the act of spying on US senators and nobody went to jail. I’m afraid this boat has sailed.

lurker February 15, 2022 1:49 PM

What this alien finds bemusing about this sanctimonious hand-wringing on behalf of the rights to privacy of American citizens, is the implicit assumption that aliens (non-American citizens) have no such rights, even when those rights exist in the laws of the alien’s own country.

Clive Robinson February 15, 2022 2:46 PM

@ thor, ALL,

The problem is that this is information collected under E.O. 12333 authorities…

Which begs the question as to the legality of E.O.12333?

Contrary to the myth that the “US President is the most powerful man in the world” US Presidents do have to operate within not just the law, but except under exceptional circumstances the will of the people as expressed through their representatives.

That is they are constrained by amongst other things, the Constitution, Congress, and SCOTUS to acts within the Federal remit.

What is and is not alowed or legal is complicated and depends somewhat on the Point of View. So treat,

With a large pinch of salt.

JonKnowsNothing February 15, 2022 3:13 PM


re: They can watch anybody, but they can’t watch everybody.

They can and do. Well.. actually the AI does the watching part…

What they do not do is catch the persons doing illegal activities. Principally because the CIA is doing the illegal activities themselves and to arrest someone would expose their “methods and means”.

The CIA is of course, quite adept at assassination and performs this regularly. Sometimes in the open and sometimes clandestinely. They are quite good at torture too and killing in hidden villas in Eastern Europe and other places on the globe.

They also write movie scripts to promote their activities. Everyone likes “My name is Bond … James Bond”. Not so much the CIA. The CIA suffers from Assassination Envy.

As noted, they do get caught and then they dress up in full military dress kit with medals, piping, gold braid and scrambled eggs (1) and stand up in front of Congress to swear they didn’t do (fill in the blank with your favorite description).

1) Scrambled eggs is a US idiom to describe the embroidery and insignias on high ranked officer’s caps. The amount of scrambled eggs often denotes the level of command.

JonKnowsNothing February 15, 2022 3:57 PM

@Bruce, @All

re: Two US Senators and no details


During the dust up over the CIA Torture Report, when the CIA “accidentally” released documents proving the allegations to the Authorized Receivers for the US Senators checking the allegations, and those Senate Staffers took the incriminating documents to the physically secured offices inside the Senate Building, created with all the matching security for handling the “most sensitive” of all data, the CIA threatened the staffers and might have taken one into their CIA domain. During the public circular gunfight over which group held primacy, some old, new, known and forgotten aspects of how that committee works/worked was released.

iirc(very badly)

There are 2 committees, one congressional the other senatorial. The people on the committees vary by party, rank, age, seniority and other ranking criteria. On a regular basis the members of the committees are required to enter into “certain oaths” and “formal declarations” to gain a security clearance. Those with the highest and most restrictive clearances are allowed into the room of holy of holies. Only a few members are accepted to be inside this room.

One of the by-products of pledging the oaths to gain entry to the room are absolute restrictions on what can be divulged to anyone else.

The important part of those restrictions is that during the Periodic Public Orchestrated Reviews done to show compliance, the members cannot ever divulge information released inside the holy of holies.

In the interest of “Oversight” and “Are they keeping to the Law”, some Senators have forgone access to the holy of holies room, in order to hold the CIA and others, accountable for their activities.

Since they have only the minimal level of Security Clearance, these members have to read between the lines of CIA-Speak to figure out what is actually happening and to whom.

Details maybe forthcoming or not, but any that are made public, may come in manner that we don’t expect.

Once Snowden released his information, the 3Ls re-wrote the laws and fixed the courts, to get the warrants, General and Specific, they wanted.

No Senator or Congressperson openly outed the CIA or released proofs. Anyone who has done such things has landed in a great pile of shyte.

It should be acknowledged that there have been previous members of these committees that have attempted to alert the US Public to illegal activities of the agencies.

It’s not a new game.

LWg February 15, 2022 4:02 PM

apparently nobody here ever heard of the U.S. Constitution 4th Amendment, nor knows why it exists.

CIA has been doing illicit domestic spying almost since its founding — and has been caught at it several times since year 1953.

SpaceLifeForm February 15, 2022 5:31 PM

@ vas pup, JonKnowsNothing, Clive

Keep in mind that Senators Ron Wyden and Martin Heinrich are not in the Gang of Eight.

Sometimes, leaks happen for a reason.

Stuff is happening. Be patient.

hut 1 February 15, 2022 9:16 PM

““The very word “secrecy” is repugnant in a free and open society; and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths and to secret proceedings…Our way of life is under attack. Those who make themselves our enemy are advancing around the globe…no war ever posed a greater threat to our security. If you are awaiting a finding of “clear and present danger,” then I can only say that the danger has never been more clear and its presence has never been more imminent…

For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy that relies primarily on covert means for expanding its sphere of influence–on infiltration instead of invasion, on subversion instead of elections, on intimidation instead of free choice, on guerrillas by night instead of armies by day.

It is a system which has conscripted vast human and material resources into the building of a tightly knit, highly efficient machine that combines military, diplomatic, intelligence, economic, scientific and political operations. Its preparations are concealed, not published. Its mistakes are buried, not headlined.

Its dissenters are silenced, not praised. No expenditure is questioned, no rumor is printed, no secret is revealed.”

― President John F. Kennedy”

Hedo February 15, 2022 9:17 PM

As an American who’s been places, I assure you that there are way way more countries (most of them) on this planet that have it much worse that we do so throwing under the bus those who work 24/7 to protect you from EVIL is the worst thing any American can do.

Yes, we do police most of the world, but you are very wrong if you think that nobody should be doing it. I’d rather have America do it than Vlad or any other control/power obsessed freak. Yes, “things” could be better for sure, but they could be far worse too. Many, Vlad included, are exploiting our values such as the most important one of being an open/transparent society (open compared to most, especially RU) in order to DIVIDE OUR GREAT NATION.

Heck, I never fell for Black Lives Matter, or the desecrated American flag that’s been altered into blue color, WHY? I have black friends, I support the police, always have, always will (except the few corrupt/dirty ones) but who’s reading this? Mostly foreign and/or domestic ENEMIES of my country who feed on our divisions. They throw us a bone, mostly on the Internet, and then they laugh at us as they watch us fall for their cheap tricks that almost always work because our open/transparent ways are being served to them on a silver platter which does half the work for them, the rest is easy.

Maybe things like this are meant to take place in order for most globalists to be “persuaded” by masses that this thing called the Internet has gone a bit too far and some more limitations are going to be coming inevitably.

I’ve been wondering for many years now, why in the world does such a great nation as ours does not have, not yet, an autonomous, proprietary, closed source Operating Systems developed for the government only (specifically for our Military and IC)? Why use M$, Dell, Apple, Google, Amazon, etc???
Too many LOOSE ENDS. Too many civilians involved to the point that it sometimes becomes extremely hard to backtrack some major leaks of some important national security top secrets.

This is even more applicable since America is a nation of immigrants that in some cases still have many ties to their countries of origin and at the same time are in the possession of many privileged or even classified intel that keeps landing into the hands of our enemies. It would be way better if the USA gov’t (Pentagon+IC) did not rely on/trust to a GAZILLION private entities/companies with classified “stuff” because different standards/obligations, and LAW applies to the civilians vs. military & IC people.

Oh, I know, the $$$$ always comes first, the lobbying, the ties/connections, the shareholders, the profits, the fat contracts – THE CORRUPTION. The greed. At the heart of everything is greed>corruption>MONEY.

And, why are we talking about CIA? We have to be talking MUCH MORE about what
Russia and Vlad are doing? Or the Chinese Communist Party? Or the lil rocket man? Or Iran? Why throw the loyal Americans under the bus? Just helping out our enemies – that’s all you end up doing. Don’t believe the FOREIGN PROPAGANDA. WAKE UP America! Ask yourself this question: why are there so many people in America that hate America? It’s not true – IT’S FOREIGN PROPAGANDA. How come that NONE of those that hate America and live in America have not moved to Russia or NK, or to Iran, since, as they claim, America is that bad? Because with huge help from Internet trolls and their propaganda, the ENEMY is creating a narrative of division and hate of Americans for one another based on this or that. We SHALL overcome. God bless America.

Hedo February 15, 2022 9:42 PM


Yes Sir,
most certainly I’m being paid way more in the currency of my personal liberties that most people in RU, NK, China or Iran can ONLY DREAM OF at the present time. I believe in America. It’s what it takes. Why are so many from all the above named countries running TO America??? Go ask them if you don’t know. I KNOW.

The door is a jar February 15, 2022 9:59 PM

@ Hedo:

Your long post reminded me of this little quote:

Television Host: The feeling is definitely there. It’s a new morning in America… fresh, vital. The old cynicism is gone. We have faith in our leaders. We’re optimistic as to what becomes of it all. It really boils down to our ability to accept. We don’t need pessimism. There are no limits.

You have to watch it to understand, YouTube has clips for sure.

Clive Robinson February 16, 2022 2:02 AM

@ Hedo,

I’ve been wondering for many years now, why in the world does such a great nation as ours does not have, not yet, an autonomous, proprietary, closed source Operating Systems developed for the government only (specifically for our Military and IC)? Why use M$, Dell, Apple, Google, Amazon, etc???

Two reasons,

1, US politicians stopped the developments that were under way.

2, With the excuse the “free market” would do it better.

The reality as many know is that,

A, MIC developments were so over priced and so non transparant the “$600 Hammer” stories were the very least of it.

B, Consumer software was about “First to market owns the market” not usability, reliability, availability, security, and most certainly not about interoperability. The same model drives the Internet.

So all that happened was the burden to the tax payer increased, only it went into different pockets.

If you want that to change, you will need to first fix a way more fundemental problem than,

Oh, I know, the $$$$ always comes first, the lobbying, the ties/connections, the shareholders, the profits, the fat contracts – THE CORRUPTION. The greed. At the heart of everything is greed>corruption>MONEY.

Because it’s “NOT the Money” that is just a tool for those with other aberrant desires. Call it a “symptom of the disease” not the disease.

But what is the disease?

For some who are narcissistic it is “Status”

For others who are socio / psychopathic it is what you might call “Power”.

And for others who are sadistic it is being able to “hurt others”.

These groups respectively make up the politicians, their backers and the guard labour that protect them.

Compared to the majority such people are a small minority with significant mental aberrations.

However in the US it’s the “capitalist” system which positively encorages such people to rise up the hierarchy where they gain more and more of what they want.

So the reality is “The lunatics realy do run the asylum” that they have slowely created, and the majority “sleepwalked into”.

You want to fix it you first need to fix the problem of how to get the majority, not minority having control.

But as the minority realy do own the process of selecting representatives and legislators you have a real problem.

By the way it’s not just the US that has this “run by the lunatics” problem all countries have it one way or another, it’s just easier for every one to see in the US system because outside of dictatorships it is perhaps the most blatant.

But before you do try fixing the issue, ask yourself a question,

“Would majority control actually be any better for society?”

The answer you will probably find is not realy, because the reality is the majority do not want the responsability, so they will actually just let the lunatics get control again. If you doubt this just study a little history. You will find that all “glorious revoloutions” or “peoples uprisings” end up back in a different form of “tyranny by the minority”, it will just look a little different to the previous tyranny.

The biggest cause for change is infact due to moving from an agrarian to industrial society, as the latter requires a professional class between those who control and those they formally controled. This “middle class” take away resources in various forms –wealth– from those who formerly led and use it to control others via reward for labour. So creating a split hierarchy with a new dynamic.

Call it “The human Condition” but sociologists came up with the Hawk-Dove game to analyse basic conflict in what would have been an agrarian style society. But back in the mid 1970’s economists extended it and we got the Hawk-Dove-Bourgeois Game.

You might want to think of the “Bourgeois” as “Corporations” in our current state of society. In most runs of the Hawk-Dove-Bourgeois Game the Bourgeois come out on top… However when you go back to the original agrarian model though, you see that the “Bourgeois” came about through the “church” which gave us politicians under the King and Barrons court. So the model we need to move forward to would be a “Hawk-Dove-Bourgeois-Church Game” which from what I can see develops into a non stable in the short term but cyclic in the long term model.

Winter February 16, 2022 2:34 AM

@Clive, Hedo
“Two reasons,
1, US politicians stopped the developments that were under way.
2, With the excuse the “free market” would do it better.”

The main question is, what would the US government gain by that?

Security? Who in government circles wants that? If necessary, they drop a bomb on whoever they think is a nuisance. Also, nobody would use a USA government OS anyway. By making it “free market enterprises” they can have plausible deniability.

John February 16, 2022 3:05 AM



Sounds like yet another argument in favor of ‘restoration of the peasantry’.

I just ate an apple I picked from an abandoned tree last season that was stored in a paper grocery bag in a plastic bag folded over in a regular refrigerator.

It was in perfect condition. Measured Brix of 12. Perfect skin. Tasted really great. No after effect from eating it, unlike store apples.

My only cost was picking it and keeping it in storage.

I now suspect many veggies and fruits can be stored in this low cost simple way. Then prepared fresh just prior to my eating them

Gotta try growing some small grain as described by Fukuoka in his One Straw Revolution suitably modified for my climate.


Clive Robinson February 16, 2022 3:25 AM

@ Winter,

The main question is, what would the US government gain by that?

Your question is ambiguous…

The two points I made that you reference is actually what happened, and as I noted the US tax payer gained nothing… Nor for that matter did the US Gov, in fact for them things went backwards and are still continuing to do so, even with some of the “secret” “carve outs” they have negotiated with tech companies like Intel and Microsoft.

If you mean,

“What would the US government gain by having their own secure OS?”

The answer is that they would have had around 40years less security breaches. With the OPM hack being just one of thousands that very probably would not have happened.

The simple fact is though, the politicians have never ever cared about “security” as it does not get them reelected by voters. Nor does it get them the money for political campaigns to come to the notice of voters.

Where as banging a drum about “saving money” by “smaller Govetnment” with the implication of “lower taxes for the voters” does get them both.

The reality is even on a good day “outsourcing” Government functions increases the tax payer burden as it’s atleast 30% more expensive often way way more. And that’s before you add the extra costs the at best mediocre performance such outsourcing gets requires.

Clive Robinson February 16, 2022 3:58 AM

@ John,

It was in perfect condition.

Probably not, though you probably won’t have noticed unless you make jam.

Pectin content very definitely reduces fairly quickly even in apples when they are ripe. The net effect is to make the “juice” in the fruit more available and the fruit easier for small creatures to eat thus “spread the seed” more widely.

It’s why commercial fruit pickers pick when the fruit is “under ripe”.

Oh whilst the paper bag is good, the plastic bag is not as it holds certain gasses against the fruit[1]. Oh and the refrigeration should be slightly warmer than the average household fridge at about 4C or a fraction higher. Home fridges are designed for 1-2C as this maximizes “dairy product” and “raw meat” keeping times as it more significantlt slows bacterial growth.

[1] It’s also why you should never put bananas in with other fruit, as the gasses they emit make the fruit over ripen and start the decay process.

Petre Peter February 16, 2022 7:08 AM

The CIA are the big boys when it comes to security because security needs intelligence and that’s the domain of the CIA. That’s why most of their assassins are female linguists 🙂

JonKnowsNothing February 16, 2022 11:43 AM

@ Clive, @ Hedo,

@H: why great nation states do not have closed source systems?

@C: … the excuse the “free market” would do it better.

In USA, many military systems (MIL-SPEC) do have a proprietary system and the details are not public. The systems are build by commercial contractors, many specializing in MIL-SPEC systems.

In USA, our governments maintain a policy of “If it can be done in the PRIVATE SECTOR it MUST BE done in the PRIVATE SECTOR”. This does not mean PUBLIC, it does mean RESTRICTED.

Within MIL-SPEC manufacturing and software there is a ton of specialty software, design and code driven by the requirements for wartime use.

There are also lots of commercially available systems in use too.

  • Warhead Targeting Code vs PC Desktop Email

Sometimes this difference gets noticed when a new President or High VIP is required to “change their smartphone” to a MIL-SPEC one. President Barrack Obama wasn’t very pliable about this requirement. The current method of “Government by Tweet” obscures the difference.

There are closed systems and because they are closed, the public doesn’t know about them.

Frank Wilhoit February 16, 2022 3:28 PM

The surveillance that was surfaced in the Qwest discovery
1) was even worse than this;
2) was explicitly and purely political;
3) was the very first act of the G. W. Bush administration in office (mid-Feb. 2001, i.e. nothing to do with subsequent terrorist incidents);
4) has been totally forgotten;
5) probably never stopped or was scaled back.

If “Qwest” does not ring a bell, they were a telco that was driven out of business and their CEO prosecuted on patently fabricated charges because he refused to cooperate.

JonKnowsNothing February 16, 2022 5:42 PM

@Frank Wilhoit, @All

re: If “Qwest” does not ring a bell

Yeppers some of us still remember Quest. It was a Big DOG in Silicon Valley at the time. Telco’s were sprouting like weeds and venture capital couldn’t find enough ventures to invest in.

It was also at a time when people still “believed” in the Government and what Government agencies said. Anyone who said “different” got disappeared and plenty did.

Even though it was “known” and the holy of holies rooms in Telco Building were manned by odd ducks that never showed up on the employee roster, folks refused to stick their necks out too far.

Those fantastic stock options that vanished just before IPO helped keep people’s eyes down.

Best Quote from COVID (paraphrased)

During the Eat Out To Help Out UK Gov campaign, the patriarch of a family decided to celebrate the Freedom to Eat Out and as the UK was also pitching in dinner discount coupons, he took the entire family to dinner.

They had a blast. Wine, beer, hot food and primo service.

3 days later Patriarch in the Hospital. A few days later Patriarch dead.

He said “I cannot believe they lied to me! They said it was safe!”.

Another person who uses that same line is a person with access to the holy of holies and had her staffer grabbed by the CIA. She made a terrific speech on the floor of the Senate. Hot Air Gone With The Schwinn.

wandering chicken farm February 17, 2022 7:23 PM

“The real reason for the official secrecy, in most instances, is not to keep the opposition (the CIA’s euphemistic term for the enemy) from knowing what is going on; the enemy usually does know. The basic reason for governmental secrecy is to keep you, the American public, from knowing – for you, too, are considered the opposition, or enemy – so that you cannot interfere. When the public does not know what the government or the CIA is doing, it cannot voice its approval or disapproval of their actions. In fact, they can even lie to your about what they are doing or have done, and you will not know it. As for the second advantage, despite frequent suggestion that the CIA is a rogue elephant, the truth is that the agency functions at the direction of and in response to the office of the president. All of its major clandestine operations are carried out with the direct approval of or on direct orders from the White House. The CIA is a secret tool of the president – every president. And every president since Truman has lied to the American people in order to protect the agency. When lies have failed, it has been the duty of the CIA to take the blame for the president, thus protecting him. This is known in the business as “plausible denial.” The CIA, functioning as a secret instrument of the U.S. government and the presidency, has long misused and abused history and continues to do so.”
– Victor Marchetti, Propaganda and Disinformation: How the CIA Manufactures History

[1967] Jim Garrison Interview “In a very real and terrifying sense, our Government is the CIA and the Pentagon, with Congress reduced to a debating society. Of course, you can’t spot this trend to fascism by casually looking around. You can’t look for such familiar signs as the swastika, because they won’t be there. We won’t build Dachaus and Auschwitzes; the clever manipulation of the mass media is creating a concentration camp of the mind that promises to be far more effective in keeping the populace in line. We’re not going to wake up one morning and suddenly find ourselves in gray uniforms goose-stepping off to work. But this isn’t the test. The test is: What happens to the individual who dissents? In Nazi Germany, he was physically destroyed; here, the process is more subtle, but the end results can be the same. I’ve learned enough about the machinations of the CIA in the past year to know that this is no longer the dreamworld America I once believed in. The imperatives of the population explosion, which almost inevitably will lessen our belief in the sanctity of the individual human life, combined with the awesome power of the CIA and the defense establishment, seem destined to seal the fate of the America I knew as a child and bring us into a new Orwellian world where the citizen exists for the state and where raw power justifies any and every immoral act. I’ve always had a kind of knee-jerk trust in my Government’s basic integrity, whatever political blunders it may make. But I’ve come to realize that in Washington, deceiving and manipulating the public are viewed by some as the natural prerogatives of office. Huey Long once said, “Fascism will come to America in the name of anti-fascism.” I’m afraid, based on my own experience, that fascism will come to America in the name of national security.”

ResearcherZero February 17, 2022 8:17 PM

@Clive Robinson @ALL

The simple fact is though, the politicians have never ever cared about “security” as it does not get them reelected by voters. Nor does it get them the money for political campaigns to come to the notice of voters.

The politicians don’t even care about the security reports from their own intelligence agencies, unless it involves smearing the opposition party.

Successive governments behave in the same manner, which party it is does not matter.

Exceptional powers require exceptional integrity.

Bulk collection allows selectors that can track by data field, passwords for example.

Sort of like a personal scent archive, except pass me the hash instead of your underwear.

“Cross-site leaks (XS-Leak) are a family of browser-side channels that can be used to infer information about users. Web developers and browser vendors often misunderstand XS-Leak bugs, which can have security and privacy implications for their applications and users.”

“Because these issues have long been part of the web platform, browsers may sometimes not perceive them as urgent; the goal of my talk is to remind browser vendors of the impact of :visited history detection and help them prioritize work on fixing them.”

“An attacker-controlled webpage can know which other pages from the same websites a user is currently browsing, retrieve sensitive information from these pages, and even recover login credentials (e.g., username and password) when they are autofilled,”

ResearcherZero February 17, 2022 8:33 PM

A level 5 report was prepared for the UN Security Council 1988 Toronto Conference, and much of that report was ignored right up until fairly recently. It covered a wide range of issues, but much of the guidance and planning recommendations were ignored by politicians everywhere, to the point of sometimes doing the opposite of planning recommendations.

That is why reports like that are Top Secret.

P/K February 17, 2022 10:38 PM

Where exactly is the “mass surveillance program on Americans” here?

If you read the PCLOB report it’s clear that the CIA acquired datasets with financial information to support the combat against ISIL – that’s exactly what they are supposed to do.

Probably every large batch of financial data from anywhere in the world includes some transactions by Americans, welcome to the global economy.

So the only point is: was the CIA careful enough with those American data. This has nothing to do with illegal mass surveillance on Americans.

Grima Squeakersen February 18, 2022 8:14 AM

@John re: citizen volunteers for surveillance Your allegation that every citizen of a nation has voluntarily submitted to any data collection that his or her civil master has decided is in the interests of the managerial class is ludicrous, bogus, and the foundation on which authoritarian and totalitarian societies are based. Of course, I suspect that you also hold a corallary belief that such volutary submission is a prerequisite to acknowledgement of citizenship. I’m sure the CCP would love your formulation…

name.withheld.for.obvious.reasons February 21, 2022 7:04 PM

Least we forget scope creep. The clandestine organization has transmogrified in its mission and scope. How is this possible, you may ask. It is simple, as the tools and means to execute specific logistical and operational components of organization advances, the need to use them in new and interesting ways are exploited. Of course, no admission to what or how the CIA operates is public information; it is not just strategic advantage, but a means to expand the organizations scope. This is highly dangerous given the very nature of the organization. If the only reason something or someone acts is, “Because we can.” then any bets on the table should hold some insurance, or better yet don’t play cards dealt by them.

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