Schneier on Security

Clive Robinson • February 11, 2022 6:12 PM

@ Abders, MarkH, ALL,

I really hope this is false.

The date might be wrong…

But there is the old saying,

“If you give children toys they will eventually play with them”

Putin has a lot of toy soldiers, but does he have enough?

My guess, and I would treat it as that is,

1, He has enough forces to invade.
2, He does not have enough forces to hold the whole of the Ukraine.
3, He will invade east Ukrain upto a point and go not even as far as he will get support for from the locals.
4, He will find some excuse to blaim his Orwelian excuse for failure the “anglo-saxons”.

That is he will end up with more territory, but importantly with Rus still in the Ukraine on the Ukraine side of the lines to act as spys / saboteurs / troublemakers, so he can make another “salami-slice” later.

This way he gets to stay the leader of “Strong Russia” as it continues to fail economically. But he gets to blaim the US/UK/EU for the economic failure. So “win win” for Putin, “loose loose” for the Russian people and other Rus in the Ukraine and Belarus etc…

The big issue is Germany, and it’s,

1, Need for cheap energy.
2, Sentimentality for Rus myths and fake “golden age” stories.

With “Nord Stream 2″(NS2) the Germans have walked into a trap. Unlike the Ukraine Germany has little or no gas storage, so the “supply chain” via NS2 is extreamly fragile and will give Putin an almost instant off switch to Germany, thus political leverage into Europe that few can imagine.

I can see Europe fracturing with the North West and West spliting off from some of the North and East, with the South splitting off as well.

This would thoroughly delight not just Putin but the US State Dept as well. Further bith China and India would look favourably on such a split…

I just hope Germany and France both stop sleepwalking into disaster, but honestly, I don’t think they will.

Clive Robinson • February 11, 2022 7:56 PM

@ SpaceLifeForm, Anders, ALL,

This may all be sabre-rattling to drive up the price of oil.

The price is going to “sky rocket” anyway, thanks to Omicron.

In the next month maybe three Europe will be out of lockdown and back to rebuilding the economy, which will need a lot of energy, much of which comes from gas due to short sighted politicians.

The Americas both north and south of the equator will also be trying to rebuild their economies but the North is going to take longer than Europe to throw off Covid for various reasons (of mainly political stupidity). Some are predicting inflation in the US will go into double digits this year, so when your boss tries to make a 5% raise sound generous, just remember anything less than 12% is actually going to be a cut in your spending power. As for energy 25% increase in cost would supprise very few who have been keeping an eye on things. It’s almost certain US domestic energy suppliers will change tariffs and put double ratchets in them as they know full well energy shortages are comming fast and most domestic consumers will end up paying for low prices to industry on fixed longterm supply contracts.

As for South America, like the rest of the Southern Hemisphere they are heading into autumn and winter. Their “respiritory disease season” is not far off. Hopefully Omicron will get down there and become compleatly dominant so no new more pathogenic varient will arise. As for South Asia and Australasia pays your money, takes your choice.

Either way, the need for energy is going to go up globally and supply actually can not currently meet demand[1] so you know what is going to happen… Your “energy security” is in your own hands, and you can be sure that legislators are going to force other hands into your pocket, to prop up their chums who have a habit of flying south of the border when a chill wind blows, especially on the yellow rose.

For those who have to deal with PEG, you have my commiserations, power and supply outages will I suspect become the norm not the exception for rather more time than will be tolerable. I know of several people who have “upped and left” and headed north where the power and energy supply is going to be more reliable and possibly less expensive.

Perhaps oddly, an invasion by Russia into the Ukraine might have the opposite effect on energy demand in Europe. Political instability usually suppresses economic activity and increases unemployment etc, with resultant economic effects similar to lockdown, and so the demand for energy falls. Even for nations on a “war footing” the economy switches over and so does energy usage and takes time to stabilize in new patterns.

If Russia does invade East Ukraine, I would not be surprised if Turkey starts taking advantage of the situation, especially where energy supply is concerned as they have certain geographic advantages they can –and have– exploit.

But we have a big unknown… ICTsec is going to be negatively impacted by any potential military action. Thus the question not just of the “waring parties” but a very wide if not global fall out as “fire and forget” malware runs astray where ever it can.

I’ve no idea what mayhem “all out cyber-warfare” will bring, but past evidence suggests that if it starts it will be entirely around the globe in less than 24hours[2][3].

One thing is almost certain, no current consumer / commercial OS or Applications have any resiliance to a myriad of zero-days etc that will get unleashed very very rapidly, and patching etc won’t be an option at all.

We know that there is information out there that will enable all Intel CPU chips to be permanently bricked. Likwise all Flash ROM to have persistant malware installed (if not already done via APT type tactics).

So now might be a good time for organisations to seriously investigate th “pull the connectivity plug” on everything that is not essential. And hard segregate / ring fence the essential connectivity that remains like it is Chernobyl.

But also consider for future thought, if your “business” is “in the cloud” well… “No cloud”, which is the likely outcome of major cyber-warfare, I guess means “no business”…

Oh and if you are an investor as those with college funds, and pensions reluctantly are you might want to consider where your money is invested…

[1] One side effect will be the price of crypto-coins, which I suspect will become even more volatile. Expect much speculation and fraud / theft as new coins and contract systems spring up[2] looking for “mug money” and vast amounts of energy to drive things.

[2] Any increase in crypto-coin speculation is going to cause an exponential rise in ICTsec attacks.

[3] Cyber-warfare is an unknown, but history suggests it is going to be bad for the vulnerable and unprepared. Most business systems are way way to exposed and have zero ability to stop the sort of malware waiting in the cyber-warfare arsenals. So such systems will get co-opted, trashed or both in “all-out” cyber-warfare.

Clive Robinson • February 12, 2022 2:12 PM

@ JonKnowsNothing, Freezing_in_Brazil, ALL,

Which sub-lineage are your rooting for?

The one that does “least harm” but also hopefully gives best immunity as well. As an African doctor said of Omicron,

“It’s the vaccine we could not aford to make or give”.

To say that SARS-2 is not now in reality endemic would be silly.

There are so many lineages now, it’s become a veritable “petting-zoo” of “cute furry thing” disease reservoirs of zoonotic and reverse-zoonotic infections. Hopefully this will now have laid to rest some of the deliberately circulated rumours, that there was never any evidence to support.

The concern now is for what ever varient next becomes dominant for it to be less pathogenic than the ones before and hopefully less so than the common cold.

Interestingly despite our many many mistakes, we have apparently seen as a byproduct of lockdowns eyc but obviously not vaccination the extinction of two varieties of flu. Due mainly to “Issolation with Hands, Face, Space, Ventillate”. As a result of which thankfully “mask wearing” is now less contentious than it was.

Maybe if we lost the “Macho Man” nonsense of “Personal Rights over Societal Responsabilities’ and all started wearing masks for the respiritory disease seasons as is the increasing habit in the Far East we might all live a healthy decade or so longer[1]…

Hopefully the lesson we can all take away from the past couple of years is that prompt sensible “primary” precautions used for millennia, if brought in early and hard will stop future out breaks of disease down to manageable levels and give science and medicine the time for them to catch up.

As for the underlying primary issue of the interface between civilisation and the wild, it would be nice to think we would have learned lessons there… But I think we all know the answer, and the solution to that, is going to be rather more difficult.

There are other things that will need to be said in the near future, any one who understands cause and effect knows that, but for changes to happen society has to want to move in that direction, and that only happens by honest education and understanding. My memory stretches atlest half a century with the moon landings still fresh in my mind. In that time I have seen many positive changes in society, as well as too much desperate clinging to the past and trying to claw back a past that never existed by “boat anchors”. Sadly such people will always exist, what we need to do is minimise the harm they can cause, without loosing the benifits of steady progress. That is science is a guide to what the ultimate arbiter “nature” will alow, one charecteristic of both nature and science is that the answers take time, and that rushing off without caution is not sensible.

Thus the precautionary approach via time tested interventions that will buy as the time to get the answers we need, is perhaps the best lesson that can be learned from this now endemic situation.

[1] Over the next 20-30years we will see the bulk of which new auto-immune diseases SARS-2 has brought to mankind. And get an indication of just how long, the tail of Long Covid, is realy going to be.

Clive Robinson • February 12, 2022 4:19 PM

@ pup vas, ALL,

“West Midlands Police said it had been working with UAL to build an infrastructure network of take-off and landing sites for its drones to boost operations and aid the fight against crime.“

I see the usual excuse for wasting money on techno-toys…

They said “helicopters” would “aid the fight against crime”, well the “Association of Chief Police Officers”(ACPO) makes positive noises, but the proof as they say “is in the pudding” and in this case I don’t think anyone has started to cook it yet…

You might remember a few years back the Chief Police Officer of Kent Constabulary was making positive noises about the predecessor to drones, a near thirty foot long bag of lighter than air gas that would once have been called a “blimp” or Unmaned Air Ship.

I guess it was such a success it’s become “Top Secret” as there is nothing said about it these days…

Any bets on how long before some Chief Police Officer talks about satellite technology and how his Constabulary must have it’s own satellite to look down from above, because it’s some kind of given it will,

“boost operations and aid the fight against crime.”

I guess I must be getting jaded in my old age, that or they just think any old nonsense will look good in a Public Relations Press Statment…

Clive Robinson • February 12, 2022 11:52 PM

@ Winston Smith, ALL,

With regards,

I miss the in-depth discussion of meaningful subjects, even if/when politics is mentioned as a factor.

Perhaps this will ameliorate your feelings,

@ Bruce, ALL,

Somebody has decided to change the Linux kernel Random Generator, which as it has been quite contentious in the past is likely to cause some ruffled feathers now, and people will get asked to make comment.

You can read more under this wince worthy title,

random: use computational hash for entropy extraction

https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/crng/random.git/commit/?id=d512f889f8c7c7b80fe556748b90ae290b92f610

I won’t comment at this point, as it will take a little while for people to get to notice on a wider scale.

Clive Robinson • February 13, 2022 3:54 PM

@ Arnold,

Covid is over.

You could not be more wrong.

Whilst the “pandemic” might be over according to some, that is not because the SARS2 pathogen has somehow disappeared. No it has become so prevelant not just in humans but other creatures it is now “endemic” which in effect means,

No end in sight now or in the near foreseable future.

Worse, we have had two strains of Omicron so infectious that not only have they pushed out the less infectious varients the second Omicron is rapidly displacing the first, and there are indications that it not just breaks through vaccination but earlier infections.

Which brings to the fore the issue of mutations, these are linked to the number of infections at any one point in time. So the fact Omicron is so highly infectious means that the number of mutations is up by the same proportion.

But we also have clear evidence of,

1, Reverse zoonotic transfer
2, Zoonotic transfer.

In the same species, which means we have “Disease Reservoirs” that will carry the disease forward almost indefinately. Look at “white tailed deer” whilst they are certainly disease carriers they are minimally effected thus from the SARS2 pathogens perspective ideal hosts. We have similar in rodents such as domestic mice and rats. Which unlike the deer have an inordinately close relationship to mankind. So much so there is a legal term derived from latin for them which in effect means “eats from the plate of man”.

So the SARS2 pathogen has more than one mamailian path to mutate down. Omicron is likely to have arisen down a path involving domestic mice in parts of Africa where health care is at best minimal and healthcare surveillance non existant in the majority of places. It came to light as it rapidly swept through South Africa and on to Europe and America.

We got lucky in that although it is highly infectious it is also not particularly pathogenic in humans. That is not always the case, MERS is a another betacorona virus and relatively close relation of SARS, whilst it is not very infectious it’s pathogenicity in humans is something like a third of known infections dying of it. The MERS zoonotic reservoir host is believed to be camels where it’s pathogenicity is believed to be low.

So there is absolutly no reason why SARS2 could not mutate to be more infectious as has already happened with Omicron or more pathnogenic as has happened with other SARS2 mutations or both. If the latter happens then we realy would be looking at an existential threat where 2billion deaths could occure. Hopefully that will not happen and SARS2 will become increasingly like the common cold (other betacorona viruses that infect humans). But we don’t know.

In part because nobody has shown a causal model that shows that high infection rate means a lower pathogenicity. Nor have they shown a model as to why one host species would be almost uneffected whilst other species get significantly effected.

Oh and to top things off, the evidence of the effectiveness of the vaccines currently used in the West is that they are becoming increasingly ineffective against new mutations (a fairly predictable event as mRNA technology is way to specific).

But as for your,

You need to find another topic to virtue signal about.

Your gross ignorance or pretence at it, is a very strong signal of significant bias.

What we do not know is if your bias is cognative, or for other pecuniary, political or both reasons. At the very least your behaviour is at best Trollish.

Clive Robinson • February 14, 2022 8:11 AM

@ ALL,

If you are over at “the vulture” having a read, you might want to look at,

India’s Reserve Bank says outsourcing and offshoring are risky

https://www.theregister.com/2022/02/14/reserve_bank_of_india_outsourcing_risk_warning/

But whilst that should be familiar to longterm readers, this “debate”, should be in most readers here fore brains much of the time,

We should not expect our communications to remain private

https://www.theregister.com/2022/02/14/encryption_debate_for1_monday/

Clive Robinson • February 16, 2022 2:50 AM

@ SpaceLifeForm, ALL,

Get an expert that knows how to override the problem.

It’s a “dogs life”…

But what you can not see is how the blockage was cleared…

Basically the dog caused one sheep to take it’s nose out of the crack in front and so stop trying to push forwards, that was causing “push back” from those in front. Thus those in front moved on…

If you look at basic queuing in the likes of cross-bar switches, you will see similar effects. That is one signal incorrectly routed will “block the switch” re-route that signall and the switch becomes unblocked.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonblocking_minimal_spanning_switch

Also see,

https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Reduced-crossbar-switch-with-minimum-number-of-Obara/ace41e1e1b03c49c4387993133964d67799de14d

Clive Robinson • February 17, 2022 3:12 AM

@ SpaceLifeForm, lurker,

DNS lookups are Metadata

No they are not, even though they are often automated due to the recursive nature of how the “Domain Name System”(DNS) services the request[1], the actual details requested come from the user actions directly, usually via the mouse click on a URL or the user typing in the host name.

Julian Sanchez goes over this.

And he get’s it wrong as you can see,

“DNS lookup data, which is what Neustar & the Georgia Tech researchers had, does not include the contents of Internet traffic. It tells you when a computer was looking for the address of another computer. (“Hey, address book, I need the current IP address of website-dot-com.”)”

Firstly as I’ve noted, a DNS request does contain what he calls “Internet traffic”. That is the DNS request consists of two parts,

1, The “message” which is the name of the host you want an IP address for that you actively requested by your mouse click or keyboard entry.

2, The “meta-data” which is the IP address and port information of the DNS Server(s) the “message” is sent to.

Secondly, what “Neustar & the Georgia Tech researchers had” was “third party business records” collected under the “User Acceptable Use Policy”, not directly from DNS requests “on the wire”.

To see why these distinctions are important you need to understand the history of how we got to where we are to day, not just technically but how the judiciary view it bot just by legislation and regulation, but also after Prosecutors and Law enforcment have pushed it, which differs depending on which jurisdiction you are in.

So you first need to look at it another way, back in the,days of “Plain Old TelephoneService”(POTS) landline telephones with mechanical –rotary– dialing and “Operator” serviced Directory Enquires. Which the DNS service emulates,

1, As a “subscriber” you would take the phone “off hook”.
2, You would then dial the three digits (or whatever in your area) of the Directory Enquires service.
3, The “operator” would pick-up.

Upto this point it was “meta-data” that a mechanical Tap-n-Trace chart recorder was alowed to collect. But once the voice channel is open it’s nolonger meta-data (and the faint squiggles of the audio on the chart recorder were considered unusable[2]).

4, You make your spoken request to the operator who looks it up –“in the book” or later– on their computer.

What the operator types and exactly when, is considered a “third party business record” as it’s not part of the phone circuit.

5, The operator tells you what is on the screen infront of them.

What the operator says is NOT meta-data but call-content.

6, The time when the operator hangs up may or may not be meta-data depending on if you have hung up or not and where the Tap-n-Trace recording is made.

This is because if you hang up first the call “clears down” which closes the “voice circuit”, so it would not be recorded by the Tap-n-Trace local to the subscriber. If however it’s voice recorded local to the operator it would be a third party business record as audio, likewise If recorded “mechanically” but not by “metering-pulses” it would be a third party business record. But in either case the user should legaly have been told a recording was being made (ie for technical and training reasons). If recorded by metering-pulses then it would be meta-data, oh and probably fraud, as the metering-pulses should stop on the subscriber hanging up. But if you do not hang up first the “voice circuit” is still open therfore the operator hang up is not meta-data.

The key observations are,

A, What type of recording device “voice” audio or “mechanical” signalling.
B, At which end of the circuit the Tap-n-Trace is installed.
C, If the “voice circuit” is open or closed.

The rules came about the way they did because, originally the signalling was “out-of-band” and only recorded “mechanicaly”, on a “chart-recorder” connected via the “loop current relay” which “pulled in” when the subscriber went “Off Hook” but “dropped out” with dialing pulses, or if the “break” was sent to get the operator back on the line. The move to DTMF and “in-band” dialing and signalling for a while necesitated an “audio recorder”.

The problem was that “Law Enforcment” deliberately flouted the law… When the DTMF could be recorded digitally, the use of audio recordings should have –but did not– stop. The reason given was “deliberate mis-dialing” by the Mafia and other organised crime (Matt Blaze tells that story for those intetested in an over view).

So back to DNS requests, just as with a telnet or similar protocol what the user types in is like voice, not “dialing or signalling” so IT IS NOT meta-data.

The problem in the US was “push” by Law Enforcment to “stretch the rules” by implying a DNS request is actually part of a “connection request” thus signalling, it’s not, because DNS requests DO NOT always result in a “connection request”.

That is you can manually make a DNS request yourself from the keyboard[3], something network techs do when testing or fault finding. The “modern way” to do so is with “dig”.

https://www.linode.com/docs/guides/use-dig-to-perform-manual-dns-queries/

[1] One of the easier ways to get your head around DNS and how it services user originated requests, is Chapter 14 of W. Richard Stevens “TCP/IP Illustrated, Volume 1 : The Protocols” ISBN 0-201-63346-9 December 1993.

[2] Actuall the faint squiggles on the chart recorder, caused by people speaking could actually be turned back into some semblance of audio if you used a fast enough and sensitive enough chart recorder. What you did was to turn the pen trace on the chart into a “film sound track”. You can do this manually but it’s a lengthy process. You draw a faint line under the squiggle, then “mirror image” the squiggle underneath so you now have an “envelope” fill it in to make it black, then make a reduced “contact negative” pull this through the audio section of a film projector and you get the sound back sufficiently to be inteligable. But even without doing this by eye you could see when people raised their voices etc. During WWII sonorgrams came into their own when dealing with “voice encryption”.

[3] DNS uses port 53 in both the UDP and TCP spaces. The reason is UDP is limited in length, and sometimes the data is too big (see use of the truncated “TC” flag) and a UDP request has to be made as a TCP request. I don’t recommend people try building their own TCP based DNS request using telnet, but it has been done. Oh and net admins that block TCP based DNS requests as some do are breaking the system in an unpredictable way.

Clive Robinson • February 17, 2022 9:22 PM

@ ResearcherZero, ALL,

Ukraine, like other countries, needs to learn how to use manual operations at key locations to keep systems running in the event a cyberattack disrupts digitally controlled systems.

Sorry but this gets my “stuck record” response.

It is the same issue we see with any “supply chain” which has been made fragile by having robustness measures removed.

Banks have been closing branches/offices where ever they can to make more profit.

It’s the neo-con mantra of “Don’t leave money on the table” that through the likes of the Chicargo School taking significant neo-con funding has spread to most MBA courses. Question it and you fail to graduate is the attached message.

But I do question it and for good reason, nature teaches us that as a policy it’s a recipe for species suicide.

That is nature is sufficiently chaotic in the short term as to appear random but falling on a normal/bell curve distribution[1].

If your system has no storage of energy then it fails the instant the demand exceeds the supply, which for living creatures means death. So evolution has given creatures the ability to store energy in the good times to cover the lean times.

Without going into the maths behind it it comes out to very nearly 2/3rds or 66% efficiency is optimum for survival over a given cycle time.

What Banks have done is try to aim for 100% efficiency in the money supply to it’s customers by,

1, Closing branches / counters.
2, Outsourcing ATMs to third parties.
3, Forcing debit cards on customers.

So the Banks want “cash” gone, they want it all electronic and “On-Line” in the cheapest thus most vulnerable way.

So one person can write code that can bring every payment terminal down[2]. Whilst there is an “Off-Line” fall-back this is extreamly limited so is in no way a “fail safe” mechanism. In times past “truck loads” of cash would be delivered from central reserves to branches and cash would be issued “in branch” using either computers on private networks or limited paper ledgers.

Without those branch offices and their cash issuing staff, the economy stops functioning in the normal manner…

An examination of what happened in the US when major weather conditions of “hundred year storms” brought everything power / communications crashing down shows that humans can “work around” as a matter of survival by falling back to “trust”.

Kind of demonstrating trust as a basic survival mechanism.

But… Even trust needs some kind of infrastructure to work[3]. If you’ve ripped that out in the name of “efficiency” as the mindless mantra dictates, then it takes no great brain to work out what is going to happen.

[1] A random distribution is normally considered flat. So you roll one dice you expect all numbers to come up evenly. But what happens when you add to flat distributions? Well if you roll two dice you find that a total of two or twelve are rare whilst seven is common. If you plot the addative distribution it is triangular. If you add a third dice the minimum are three and eighteen but the curve now looks bell shaped. The more dice you add the better the curve becomes especially in the tails. For most mathmatics if you draw five random numbers from a flat distribution and add-n-normalise them the approximation to the bell or normal distribution is sufficient.

[2] The “army of one” principle, made possible by autonomous functioning code, that has zero cost to the attacker of not just replication but distribution of the attack code. The actual cost is carried by others be it the intended victims in a direct attack or the bystanders in a “Distributed Denial of Service”(DDoS) attack.

[3] In some war-torn parts of the world “Mobile-phone top-up cards” have become currancy. This observation led some years back to the UK Cambridge Computer Lab looking into putting “electronic wallets/purses” onto phones that worked by bluetooth “Mesh Networking”. But whilst this could be made reasonably secure information wise, it was still dependent on the power infrastructure to charge phones. It’s why having the abilityvto “Off-Grid” charge phones is so important. In the UK there were before Covid kicked in, padestrian area Solar Benches being installed, that gave USB power charging ports and a seat to sit and wait on.

Clive Robinson • February 17, 2022 10:32 PM

@ ResearcherZero,

The important message is that everything is under control.

Two things to note,

1, Neither you nor I credit politicians and those that surround them with “social responsability”.
2, By a process of basic logic it can be shown that it is impossible for “everything” to be “under control”.

But this is not exactly news…

There is an old song[1] a verse of which is,

“The Captain said to Stoker Jim, Now you will teach me how to swim!
But jim just answered with a frown, We can both learn together as the ship goes down.”

Which kind of tells you how politicians (captains) and for that matter most others (stokers) do their disaster preparation…

[1] The song is “He Played his Ukulele as the Ship Went Down” which on the song sheet is quite long. A shortened modified version was recorded by Clinton Ford,

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JOj4Lx6g-rY

Clive Robinson • February 18, 2022 3:24 AM

@ SpaceLifeForm,

The train has reached the hill crest.

Does it have “30,000 pounds of bananas” on board[1]?

It’s a long time since I did a Micro$haft instal…

But I suspect that Micro$haft are going to find some law student in the EU might just rattle the chains of the European Court. If caught under the EU GDPR, Micro$haft could find their stock value taking a very significant nose dive.

I’ve not tried this but this “work-around” should get people installed upto a point “off-line” where hopefully things won’t get instantly attacked with three year or more old zero-days Micro$haft could not be bothered to fix properly…

“Audit mode with SysPrep. Works on both Home and Pro. Ctrl-Shift-F3 will take you out of the OOBE.

It’ll let you install software and drivers, make many configuration changes, run Windows Update, and even create local users. Once you’re done you can set it to shut down and enter the OOBE on next boot.”

But another complication for Micro$haft, is some people have,

“A legal duty of care that prevents them having any part of their user computing network having extetnal communications access”.

That’s Lawyers, Accountants, Medical Professionals, and Religious Ministers who have a direct legal “Duty of Care” of confidentiality, but also Financial services oh and some others like Engineers and Architects.

But also in some places, others that have had certain fiduciary reporting requirments like “Anti Money laundering” placed on them… So in some places, that list of “professions” and “trades” can be very very long.

[1] According to the Harry Chapin song, they ate 30,000lb of bananas a day in Scranton back in the late 1960’s… That is well north of a hundred thousand bananas…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGldNpngDws

Clive Robinson • February 18, 2022 4:53 PM

@ Anders, ALL,

More on the FosFuel pipeline “alleged” explosion and fire in East Ukraine in “Russian influance zone”.

Treat all these as “fog of war” reports, that are probably not at all accurate,

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/gas-pipeline-ukraines-breakaway-region-catches-fire-after-blast-reports-2022-02-18/

Some are claiming it was due to “shelling” with “mortars and grenades”,

https://112.international/conflict-in-eastern-ukraine/occupied-luhansk-says-gas-pipeline-damaged-as-result-of-shelling-69772.html

And others apparently think it is Russia pretexting for a faux “Casus Belli” to start an invasion,

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10528967/Biden-says-Putin-invade-Ukraine-explosion-rips-gas-pipeline-separatist-city.html