Dallas Police Use a Robot to Kill a Person

This seems to be a first.

EDITED TO ADD (7/10): Another article.

EDITED TO ADD (7/12): And another article.

EDITED TO ADD (7/16): Several views.

Posted on July 9, 2016 at 10:13 AM • 187 Comments

Comments

Mike AmlingJuly 9, 2016 10:34 AM

Isaac Asimov's three laws of robotics were fiction at the time he published them, and remain fiction today.

rJuly 9, 2016 10:38 AM

Well, at least the Dallas PD opted not to waste tax payer dollars with a lifetime of free TV meals and re-education via incarceration.

About the robot, I've seen varying values for such things. Some of the articles about this incident refer to $8000 bomb squad robots, but one of them showcased an ultra tiny model for $70,000 - $125,000.

Why is the DoD selling local police departments armored humvees if they're not going to use them? The guy was holed up in a parking garage for christ's sake.

The Wedge is the most important invention ever made, it's funny how the more bodies from both sides that pile up onto it - the wider the gap between these two sides becomes.

LTJuly 9, 2016 10:46 AM

Was it a true robot, not a remotely controlled device? May be splitting hairs,but calling an RC IED a robot reminds me of news orgs calling an APC a tank.

rJuly 9, 2016 11:02 AM

Also,

I wonder how much the Texas Bell Tower shooting played into this, for both sides.

MikeJuly 9, 2016 11:09 AM

News media don't choose their words for accuracy, but for clicks. Calling it an RC IED will just put people to sleep. Calling it a "drone bomb" will get clicks, but drones are getting played out. So "Robot" is their term of choice.

Of course, using "drone" to describe RC model aircraft was the same thing. When the media started this, an aircraft drone (when not a male bee) was a military aircraft that usually carried weapons, and "drone strikes" were a hot topic. So we got "Drone crashes on white house lawn" instead of "Toy aircraft crashes on white house lawn". What's really funny is that they seemed to restrict "drone" to multirotors (maybe because they couldn't spell "multirotor"), whereas most military drones were fixed wing aircraft. But most people won't think of a fixed wing RC model as a drone.

Which is part of why SpaceX landing a drone spaceship on a drone water ship is so cool.

Mace MonetaJuly 9, 2016 11:24 AM

I don't understand why so many people seem to be OK with the extrajudicial execution of a suspect by law enforcement. The person was pinned down; there was no imminent risk to anyone. They could have used tear gas on the robot. They could have waited three days for him to pass out from lack of water. They could have done many things, but instead they blew him up with a bomb, along with a $150,000 robot.

DanielJuly 9, 2016 11:44 AM

@Mace

Correct. The issue isn't whether or not police have a right to use lethal force because they clearly do. The issue is that we shouldn't be engaging in post-hoc rationalizations. To me the apposite analogy is data retention--the genie got out of the bottle and now no one wants to do the difficult work of figuring out how to get the genie back in again. If we are going to be blowing people up with drones or robots there needs to be consistent guidelines to guide police behavior before these incidents arise.

To me the underlying problem in all three deadly incidents last week is that we have people with weapons who do not want their discretion questioned. Yet the nature of civil society is that it produces rules and regulations that limit discretion. So not only is it correct to question the use of force in this case, more importantly it is to do the hard work of figuring out what guidelines should rule the use of this technology in the future.

BTW, if anyone wonders why we need new guidelines for drones/robots that existing guidelines can't handle we need to look no further than the first post in this thread. Drones fundamentally change the cost benefit analysis when it comes to the use of lethal force, the very reason why the military loves them so much.

Ewan MarshallJuly 9, 2016 11:53 AM

No problem in using a remote controlled vehicle to deliver force. That is not really the issue.

The issue is that once they started using a remote controlled vehicle to deliver said force, they immediately went with lethal means on said robot, said lethal means also had a high chance of collateral damage. Why not tear gas or a tazer to take down the suspect? At the time a remote is used to not put officers in danger is the time when lethal force should no-longer be authorized.

James J DempseyJuly 9, 2016 11:56 AM

Well, technically, the robot was a suicide bomber. Presumably it was also blown up by the bomb.

Come TogetherJuly 9, 2016 12:20 PM

Stanford Law School
CIS: The Center for Internet and Society

The Center for Internet and Society at Stanford Law School is a leader in the study of the law and policy around the Internet and other emerging technologies.

CIS has emerged as a national leader in exploring the intersection of law and robotics. Our staff has published on a variety of topics, including autonomous driving, the domestic use of drones, robotics and privacy, and liability for personal robots. We have held several events around artificial intelligence and robotics, including the annual Robot Block Party for National Robotics Week that draws thousands of visitors.

http://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/focus-areas/robotics

rJuly 9, 2016 1:13 PM

The likelyhood that the robot was completely destroyed is probably minimal, the articles said it was "extended" on the robots arm.

So, not a total loss - but as to the point about the taser via extension, why isn't there a cattle prod addon for these things? aren't some of these robots "fly by wire" ???

Duck N. DodginJuly 9, 2016 1:25 PM

The irony is thick.

Police converted a defensive bomb retrieval robot into an offensive robotic land based drone weapon and blew the guy up like he was an enemy soldier. Wow!

I would guess this use was pre-planned long ago. But, not published in the local newspaper.

War is hell you know, but OK, they did give him a few hours to talk things out before they executed, I mean neutralized, him. That was fair I guess.

And, this was the climax to a protest about excessive force and unjust homicide by police on blacks and other minorities.

I would guess most people think this was all peachy keen. I wonder if other options might have been considered, however.

Jason M.July 9, 2016 2:17 PM

There was an incident a few years ago in Los Angeles where a disgruntled ex-police officer, Christopher Dorner, went on a killing rampage against other law enforcement personnel and their families, and threatened to wage "asymmetric warfare" against even more of then across that area. He hid in the mountains and was eventually found and killed in a subsequent police altercation.

At the time, the FBI confirmed that drones were being used to track him, and the local sheriff -- when asked whether or not ARMED drones might be used against Dorner -- replied only that "all of their resources" were being considered for use (this amounted to a non-denial that armed drones might be utilized).

Police surrounded the house where Dorner was hiding and fired incendiary tear gas devices into it, which set it ablaze and resulted in Dorner's body being found completely charred. An autopsy later confirmed that there was a bullet that went through his head, leading to speculation that it had been self-inflicted. But the salient point is that the statements by law enforcemeny about drones being used to hunt Dorner, and armed drones in particular, are consistent with drones being used as deployment devices for incendiary projectiles which led to the house being set ablaze.

Source:
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/376732/Man-hunt-for-ex-soldier-who-shot-police-chief-s-daughter-and-killed-policeman

CuriousJuly 9, 2016 2:48 PM

I don't know if any of the armored vehicles used by law enforcement in USA have turrets, but I guess such turrets that rely on remote control of a weapon from within the same vehicle, would be similar to using a robot, because they would both be remote controlled.

Such turrets seem to be something of a novelty on military vehicles. Probably relying on such convenient hardware as thermal optics, for easily spotting human beings at night time.

CuriousJuly 9, 2016 2:51 PM

Imagine law enforcement having fixed remote turrets on buildings, the same way people have remote cameras placed around a city.

This might seem silly at a glance, and admittedly my only reference is the movie "idiocracy" (comedy), with remote controlled guns at the entrance of the prison in that movie.

First BloodJuly 9, 2016 2:58 PM

@elsie

I think the difference is 'imminent threat'. Or at least there is a lot of real wiggle room there. But the bigger picture also involves that Chicago police 'code of silence' that went from myth to government fact within the last year. Cops do a lot of good. But it seems rightly so that our freedom of expression landscape is quite literally overflowing with elders teaching their children to understand just how much bad police also do.

rJuly 9, 2016 3:03 PM

@Curious,

You just made me realize: WATER CANNONS/pump truck.

The other thing, if they have turrets on buildings I think the responsible thing would be tranqs.

First BloodJuly 9, 2016 3:14 PM

@r

This person was apparently military. They might have had interesting classified knowledge relating to inexpensive and effective countermeasures. But seriously, Dallas PD, 5 officers killed, I'm guessing the logic wasn't about preventing harm to the suspect.

Ed 209July 9, 2016 3:55 PM

kids, make sure to watch the original pre millenium robocop movie first. Then watch lot's of 'that 70s show'. Figure it out.

Untitled*July 9, 2016 3:55 PM

How much military weaponry do the police need? The point at which they need deploy explosive devices to kill perps and suspects is the point at which they should step aside and call in the military or National Guard. We need to legislate.

0gTransFatJuly 9, 2016 3:59 PM

Though I feel bad for the 5 officers killed, I don't have any sympathy for cops collectively. They brought this to themselves as a group on the national level: the group committed unjust killings without suffering proper legal consequences, the group suffers backlash in other forms (protests, lack of community support, violent retaliation).

Yes, it's true that the 5 who died are not those who committed the publicized killings. But keep in mind, those who killed, they killed as members of the group (police on duty); whose who got killed, they were killed also as members of the same group (police on duty). I would blame the bad cops for ultimately causing the deaths of these 5 officers.

First BloodJuly 9, 2016 4:12 PM

@0gTransFat

I would blame the bad cops for ultimately causing the deaths of these 5 officers.

Realize this is a person who owns and loves Ice T's / Bodycount's Cop Killer album. But I have to say we can't put all the blame on the cops here. When society goes forward allowing itself to be as stupid as it has been vis a vis the 'war on cannabis', one can't just blame cops. It's like saying the german people held no culpability for facilitating the empowerment of hitler's regime. The only people I hold blameless are the artists that do what they can to sophistrically point out how retarded humanity still is. Robocop was genius. Look at how Cameron's Dark Angel foreshadowed the drone apocalypse. According the wisdom of star trek, it's going to get worse before it gets better.

Mike BarnoJuly 9, 2016 4:22 PM

@r,

"...the articles said [the bomb] was 'extended' on the robot's arm."

I am having a flashback to a Daffy Duck cartoon. "Excuse me sir, would you please hold this?" ... BOOM!

Cultural ReferencesJuly 9, 2016 4:33 PM

if I was less lazy I'd throw up a youtube link to a clip from Hill Street Blues with Howard Hunter's IIRC cop robot fantasies/prophecies.

May dayJuly 9, 2016 4:35 PM

H.R.2646 - Helping Families in Mental Health Crisis Act of 2015
Latest Action: 07/07/2016 Received in the Senate.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-bill/2646/text

To make available needed psychiatric, psychological, and supportive services for individuals with mental illness and families in mental health crisis, and for other purposes.

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE; TABLE OF CONTENTS.

(a) Short Title.—This Act may be cited as the “Helping Families in Mental Health Crisis Act of 2016”.

(b) Table Of Contents.—The table of contents for this Act is as follows:

...

PeanutsJuly 9, 2016 4:53 PM

@Mace "the person was pinned down; there was no imminent risk to anyone" Really?,
Clearly risk and imminent threat consideration were judgement calls at the time

Perhaps "no imminent risk" is just one definition, for some just right for others too strong and subjectively in this case a rather broad word combination choice by you and others in this case

Let me explain it in proper geek threat and vulnerability management terms,

The time to render the threat (pinned down man) remediated exceeded the time in which the responsible legally authorized authorities anticipated that the imminent threat would deliver another round of payload where they little to no mitigating controls to contain

That does not preclude suits based on incompetance or a rush to execute for which they have no authority. If they did have any other effective means to mitigate and did not choose it (which could be deployed in time) they "the police) are guilty in the eyes of the Law of murder

If they will get away with it by not having a deep review and charges brought if it was an eye for an eye is the next thing to see

If you still think no one in their right mind could consider imminence of threat as valid and a factor, tell it to the 5 dead cops and their families and friends

Peanuts

GrauhutJuly 9, 2016 5:03 PM

@James J Dempsey "Well, technically, the robot was a suicide bomber. Presumably it was also blown up by the bomb."

Right, using a m-mpims (bonsai claymore) could have saved poor little Robby.

Unshaped c4 was overkill. :)

rJuly 9, 2016 6:16 PM

@Mike Barno,

It's not so funny:
"A robot walks into a bar, er: bank."

This is a great way to steal bitcoin btw.

May dayJuly 9, 2016 6:32 PM

@ May day

H.R.2646

...

“(c) Biannual Report To Congress.—Not later than 2 years after the date of enactment of this section, and every 2 years thereafter, the Director of the Center shall submit to Congress a report on the quality of services furnished through grant programs of the Administration, including applicable measures of outcomes for individuals and public outcomes such as—

“(1) the number of patients screened positive for unhealthy alcohol use who receive brief counseling as appropriate; the number of patients screened positive for tobacco use and receiving smoking cessation interventions; the number of patients with a new diagnosis of major depressive episode who are assessed for suicide risk; the number of patients screened positive for clinical depression with a documented followup plan; and the number of patients with a documented pain assessment that have a followup treatment plan when pain is present; and satisfaction with care;

“(2) the incidence and prevalence of mental illness and substance use disorders; the number of suicide attempts and suicide completions; overdoses seen in emergency rooms resulting from alcohol and drug use; emergency room boarding; overdose deaths; emergency psychiatric hospitalizations; new criminal justice involvement while in treatment; stable housing; and rates of involvement in employment, education, and training; and

“(3) such other measures for outcomes of services as the Director may determine.

...

BadtuxJuly 9, 2016 7:43 PM

The usual test by the Supreme Court as to whether a police killing of a suspect is warranted is whether there is imminent danger to someone's life. Over the years that's been watered down so that the mere *perception* that there is imminent danger is enough to allow police to use deadly force (thus all the "I thought he had a gun" and "he made a furtive motion towards his belt line" when police kill suspects), but it still requires there to be at least some thought that there is imminent danger to human life on the part of the suspect.

It's unclear that there was imminent danger to human life in this case. The suspect was holed up and cornered. The duty of police when faced with a holed up and cornered suspect is to surround him and wait for him to either surrender, come out shooting (at which point there is imminent danger and they can kill him), or pass out from thirst. The only thing I can think of that would say that there was imminent danger is if the suspect said he had a bomb and was going to blow it up and bring the whole parking garage down on everybody. At that point sending in a bomb disposal robot to blow up the bomb (and the person holding the bomb) becomes warranted under imminent danger. But all we're told is "there was no other choice" without any clarification. That's not very reassuring, because if there *wasn't* a bomb, what it basically means is that the police can just send a drone to blow up anybody that they want to arrest whenever they decide "it's too risky for our police officers to arrest him".

BTW, the rifle has been identified as a SKS-45 carbine, a stripper-clip-loaded carbine roughly the Soviet equivalent to the WW2-vintage M1 carbine. This wasn't some super-rifle capable of penetrating modern body armor, this was a cheap WW2 vintage Soviet rifle shooting standard 7.62×39mm ammunition which likely had all the problems of a 50 year old rifle such as poor tolerances and low muzzle velocity. Granted, the police had no way of knowing this until they killed the suspect... still, hearing that this guy was armed with some sort of super military rifle that could penetrate modern bullet-proof vests makes my eyes roll, this thing shoots the same round as the AK-47, and our soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan just laughed when AK-47 rounds hit their bullet-proof vests.

0gTransFatJuly 9, 2016 9:21 PM

@Badtux - You just brought something to my mind.
"if the suspect said he had a bomb and was going to blow it up and bring the whole parking garage down on everybody"

If the police had determined there was no bomb (contrary to what the suspect claimed), then there would be no "imminent danger."

If the police could not rule out the possibility of bombs, then before doing anything to the suspect, wouldn't they have to first determine that:
1) the suspect didn't have a dead man's switch;
AND
2) whatever method they wanted to use, it could incapacitate him so quickly that he couldn't send a remote trigger?

Lacking either 1) or 2) above, trying to kill the suspect could potentially make things worse (result in more injuries or deaths). Do you think they had that kind of precise intel when they killed him? If not, how can they justify the decision?

Untitled*July 9, 2016 9:50 PM

This was an emotional response by the police. They were mad as hell and they were going to send a big message. This was a revenge overkilling. It's a precedent, and if it continues to escalate, if extreme measures become acceptable, if extrajudicial killing flourishes, then eventually there will be mistakes and screw ups and innocent lives will be lost. There needs to be national legislation against this type of police behavior. The police have to do their jobs by the books. Explosives to take out (kill) suspects has to be banned, robot delivery or otherwise.

Untitled*July 9, 2016 9:57 PM

Would like to know who authorized the use of explosives in this situation? The mayor, the police chief, the govenor? The authorities here are dammed foolish. Do they want a real insurrection, a real uprising, a real war with the population? Their job is not to escalate situations.

65535July 9, 2016 10:06 PM

@ Duck N. Dodgin

“The irony is thick… land based drone weapon and blew the guy up like he was an enemy soldier.”

Yes, the irony is thick he was a US Army reserve solider [I wonder if he returned his M16/M4 when he exited Army].

@ Grauhut

“…using a m-mpims (bonsai claymore) could have saved poor little Robby.”

Don’t give them any ideas about the claymore. It’s too much of a temptation.

I wonder what will happen when a hacker enters the picture.

[New movie script]

Sergeant of SWAT: Commander, we have loaded the maximum amount of c4 on the robot’s extension arm… it is bending the arm.

Commander of SWAT: Good, now guide it into the building where the suspect is hiding.

Sergeant of SWAT: Sir, we have lost control of the robot. I think we have been hacked. Oh, no the robot is heading back to the Bomb Truck containing the 600 kilograms of c4 and our cache flash-bang grenades.

Commander of SWAT: Tell the men to take cover and stop that robot!

Sergeant of SWAT: I have lost compete contact with the robot! Nobody wants to get near that thing. The robot is only two meters from the Bomb truck.

Commander of SWAT: Tell the phone companies to shut down all internet service including phone service.

Sergeant of SWAT: Sir, what about our 911 hot line?

Commander of SWAT: We don’t need it and tell the men to cut the power lines with detonation cord.

Sergeant of SWAT: Sir, the robot has a battery and cannot be shut down with out control. Besides, the detonation cord is in the Bomb truck with the extra set of lithium batteries!

Commander of SWAT: Tell the men to open fire on the robot!

Sergeant of SWAT: Sir that is not a good idea, the robot is now one meter from the Bomb truck and extending its arm into the backdoor. Besides, the Bomb truck is over a gas line in the street. We could all go up.

Commander of SWAT: Give me your weapon I’ll destroy that robot!

‘Bang, bang, bang… BOOM... [Destruction scene out of the Terminator movie is displayed]’


epicurusJuly 9, 2016 10:22 PM

By the professional standards, CALEA, created by law enforcement agencies themselves, deadly force is justified when

"the officer reasonably believes that the action is in defense of human life . . . or in defense of any person in immediate danger of serious physical injury."

Even holding the DPD to their own standards, (assuming their accredited), its hard to see their disposition of the suspect as anything but murder, motivated by revenge. The suspect is cornered in a parking garage, surrounded by swat teams and all the better that he can be butchered by a drone. The outcome of the confrontation is guaranteed to be death, with video documentation for future viewing pleasure.

And so the fitting end to a protest raising the issue of police accountability in the use of deadly force. The answer from the police is -- a little throat cutting to tittivate the good viewer watching at home.
I am sorry to the pictures of the honorable and the fallen on the DPD Twitter page, but the decision of their superiors do not honor the dead, for bad examples react on the agents.

MarkJuly 9, 2016 10:22 PM

The militarisation of American police continues. Sad to see that in addition to killing innocent women and children with drones overseas that you're now perfecting that technology to kill your own.

I suppose that it was only a matter of time.

Truly ironic that it all started because of typical, hardline American police overreacting. And then they wheel this thing out when there's no obvious imminent threat to human life?

Well done, America, well done. What a circus.

__________________________________________

This kind of technology will continue to impact to our lives. The ethics of autonomous cars has recently hit mainstream media. Who's at fault when an autonomous car crashes and kills someone? Who's at fault when one of these drones -- let's call them what they are -- kills an innocent? When an algorithm goes wrong, when incorrect decisions are made because of a bug in programming.

Stay tuned.

TedJuly 9, 2016 11:44 PM

@ Mark

"This kind of technology will continue to impact to our lives."

Ryan Calo was interviewed in 2 of the 3 original articles in this post.

From his profile at Stanford Law School's Center for Internet and Society:

"Ryan Calo is an assistant professor at the University of Washington School of Law and a former research director at CIS. A nationally recognized expert in law and emerging technology, Ryan's work has appeared in the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, NPR, Wired Magazine, and other news outlets. Ryan serves on several advisory committees, including the Electronic Frontier Foundation, the Electronic Privacy Information Center, and the Future of Privacy Forum. He co-chairs the American Bar Association Committee on Robotics and Artificial Intelligence and serves on the program committee of National Robotics Week."
"You can read Ryan's work on SSRN (Social Science Research Network) and follow him on Twitter."

Excerpts from his “Robots in American Law” Research Paper, 2016

“Yale Law professor Jack Balkin agrees that robots will generate interesting new legal puzzles but questions whether we can know what these might be in advance. Balkin observes that the only reason we can point to the legally relevant features of the Internet is that we have two decades of experience with theorists and courts writing about cyberlaw. For Balkin, we will have to wait and see what path robotics law will follow. Or perhaps look to science fiction, where the laws of robotics are familiar.
“...Contemporary robots range in sophistication, with some systems solving and creating problems in ways never the programmer nor the public would have anticipated. The mismatch between what a robot is and how courts are likely to think of robots will only grow in salience and import over the coming decade.
“The story of robots and the law is only beginning. Robots are rapidly entering the mainstream and are likely to alter the legal landscape in ways prosaic and profound. But we should not assume we write on a clean slate. Robots have been a part of American society for half a century. And as the preceding pages show, they have already generated a limited but significant body of law that awaits exploration.”

His writing is itself enchanting; the research reads like make believe.

RickHRCJuly 10, 2016 12:00 AM

When I first heard of this, a few things come to mind.

1. Yes we probably do need professional guidelines setup for this sort of weapons use. Its new.

2. No I do not lay blame for any wrongdoing on the part of the DPD for doing this, for several priority reasons.

A.) The guy was cornered? Maybe yes, maybe he bails over the wall, maybe a friend shows up to crash the party, you don't know, they (the DPD) didn't know, nobody knew. We can make neat decisions here in hind-sight from the comfort of our desks after the fact but the fact remains no one knew what bad guy was going to do other than try to kill anyone who approached (fact proven by bad guy actions up to that moment).

B). Giving away an $80K robot to stop a killing spree, thats a no brainier in a society where we value life. It could have been gold plated for all I care and would still have been a great idea.

C). USA is a civilized society. In civilized society you don't act aggressively toward uniformed officers, they may shoot you and I wouldn't blame them. As an American embracing an American culture, I never found this hard to understand and perhaps I think this lesson is missing from public education today.

4. Our mass media, although its not possible to actually charge them with any offense thankfully, were certainly complicit in inciting this by making exception cases (of bad cops) look like the norm which clearly isn't the norm at least in the US. It is Douchbaggery of the highest order to make mostly low paid, shit job, generally patriotic and family oriented people look evil for ratings (money). Main stream media, I will not forget you.

5.) Unfortunately for the African American crowd, this moron didn't help your sterotype which is quite ironic when you consider what might have been his goal (to end abuse by cops?). Now African Americans must work even harder to look even more civilized as every cop nationwide has yet another example of people 'of a certain color' being dangerous and its...... absolutely not LE's fault. You can't change your color, but you can change your culture at large if you want it bad enough. I'm Native American, I am responsible for fixing my culture and my people, and African Americans, so are you, and so is any other.

6.) Lastly, anyone who would argue abuse of force or misuse of force, I would encourage them to volunteer to go in and restrain said bad guy in that moment (in uniform of course). But you couldn't, you weren't there, you probably aren't even trained, prepared, or maybe even brave enough. I am not saying all actions are permissible, but using deadly force on a bad guy whom already emphatically proved he's willing to use deadly force (by killing 5 and trying to kill more), isn't abuse of power. Had he laid down and said "I give up", maybe a different story, but he didn't.


I mourn for those whom we lost. The poor souls whom have to worry about this kind of horror every day (getting shot), who have to deal with the worst of our society everyday, who get paid rather lowly for it, and who keep the peace we enjoy.

Thank you is all that I can give.

First BloodJuly 10, 2016 12:36 AM

if extreme measures become acceptable, if extrajudicial killing flourishes, then eventually there will be mistakes and screw ups and innocent lives will be lost.

There was this guy named Bradley Manning that did this thing a long time ago... Eventually... that's rich.

JHD3July 10, 2016 12:59 AM

My apologies, but African Americans have no obligation to "fix their culture" because of the actions of one person. I'm white and old, and because I have paid some attention I KNOW that racism is a major problem throughout law enforcement, and that "Black Lives Matter" expresses the truth that Black lives often don't matter enough and that those who take them carelessly or maliciously are rarely brought to account.

This does not prevent me from mourning the police officers who were murdered.

Black Lives Matter is about justice and equal treatment, not revenge; this is clear from the nature of the BLM protests. One can actually believe two things at the same time: that black lives matter AND that other lives matter, and protest in the name of the first because it is black lives that are taken with impunity.

I'm white. I bear no responsibility for Timothy McVeigh, or the Ferguson police, or the Bundys. Black Americans are not responsible collectively for the actions of criminals or disturbed individuals with whom they share only skin color.

And BLM is not responsible for the murders of police officers in Dallas.

RickHRCJuly 10, 2016 1:36 AM

As a thought experiment, imagine if all people of a certain skin color (any color) decided to be actively gracious or thoughtful to everyone they meet especially law enforcement.

It wouldn't be overnight but if continued for years, an interesting thing might happen. The LE crowd may come to perceive that color of people as 'generally less threatening' and act differently toward them in general. Is that an unreasonable or unrealistic outcome in that experiment?


You can blame LE for being racist and I suppose there probably are some. But blindly blaming LE as the source of the problem is incorrect. Classical conditioning is a thing. People of a certain color (any color) commit crimes at numerically higher rates than other colors for years, LE is going to respond a bit more rapidly and aggressively to that race.

A solution, is a hard one. It will take years of being a thoughtful, productive, cohesive group of people and much suffering will be had, but I don't see an easy way around it.

Of course no culture is obligated to 'fix' its image. They are free to keep the status quo if they like, but I don't think they like it. They seem to just want a short cut and there simply isn't one. You have to take responsibility for that image and be a better people, it will take years, it will take much active outpouring of caring. I wish them the best.

DavidJuly 10, 2016 3:10 AM

That "robot" is remotely controlled by a human, not autonomous. We do that all the time with Remotely Piloted Vehicles (RPV's) killing people in the middle-east (the vast majority of which are terrorists).

I do not think the Dallas Police have used a remotely controlled device to kill a terrorist before, so technically this was a "first".

In my opinion, the Dallas Police were justified in using this level of violence. The target was a non-cooperative active shooter who threatened to trigger explosives. With a threat like that, you act swiftly and decisively so as to minimize further loss of life.

ChrisJuly 10, 2016 6:01 AM

@Mace that is exactly what I was thinking, why wasn't it tear gas/water/foam/flash bang/bean bag/tranquilliser dart? Even a "breaching charge" + any of those would have been better. A breaching charge + sniper to the leg? Starve him for a few days? He has to go to the toilet sometime. Make him waste ammo on a series of $30 remote control cars? Hell, drive a tank or at least lightly armoured vehicle in and tear gas him? Something out of Home Alone? There are a million alternative solutions, I don't think purposely blowing him up was the only one.

ChrisJuly 10, 2016 6:07 AM

Why does the general public seem to be ok with this? Do they want to live in the Judge Dredd movie? What happens when it is used on a suspect that turns out to be innocent? There is a reason we have separate judges, jurys and executioners and it doesn't all happen on the same day.

shirk®July 10, 2016 6:19 AM

@RickHRC

You're kidding right?
It couldn't be there's a pro-law-enforcement-ex-military-delusional-and-self-reinforcing-union-protected-culture-of-PTSD-suffering-mother-[***] breaking our grandfathers backs and denying our daughters access to emergency services just because THEY quite literally HAVE absolutely NOTHING BETTER TO DO could it? No, that's entirely not plausible. Maybe all these media reports mean that I NEED double-down on my SEROQUEL and i need to STOP SMOKING PCP this very moment right? Oh that's right, I must be talking to myself again: thanks for the tip - I'll shut the [***] up now.

But wait!
I forgot: you're not guilty by reason of mental defect.

Straight out of high school you hill-billies get recruited into a world of terrorist brewing mayhem where you apparently never mature and when you do finally return you take it out on the civilians that didn't stop a war based on lies?

I don't think you know who the enemy is, after all: you're being fed data from the NSA and Fusion centers... other than take-downs and marksmen skills what do you have? PEOPLE SKILLS???


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tp5bjzAwdAc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_SA3HqA7kQ

http://time.com/3720081/isis-iran-us-creation/

https://www.salon.com/2015/02/10/yes_bush_lied_about_iraq_why_are_we_still_arguing_about_this/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/fbi-overstated-forensic-hair-matches-in-nearly-all-criminal-trials-for-decades/2015/04/18/39c8d8c6-e515-11e4-b510-962fcfabc310_story.html

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/fbi-north-carolina-crime-lab-buried-blood-evidence/story?id=11431980

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2010/09/25/ptsd-and-domestic-abuse-husbands-who-bring-the-war-home.html


AND YOU WANT TRUST?
After you,

You're a sworn officer and a paid public employee, so I ask: who's in your wallet?

Don't forget: you and I both know what happens to union benefits in the face of globalization. Both you and the Medical Community are still on the list to be shook down financially so you'd better be ready.

Do you really think Obamacare can hold out with all this incentivized medicine?

By the way,

"C). USA is a civilized society. In civilized society you don't act aggressively toward uniformed officers, they may shoot you and I wouldn't blame them. As an American embracing an American culture, I never found this hard to understand and perhaps I think this lesson is missing from public education today."

So what should we do? "BOW DOWN AND LICK YOUR BOOTS" ???

"It wouldn't be overnight but if continued for years, an interesting thing might happen. The LE crowd may come to perceive that color of people as 'generally less threatening' and act differently toward them in general. Is that an unreasonable or unrealistic outcome in that experiment?"

So how should this read? "BOW DOWN AND LICK OUR BOOTS" ???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUjGbM6SiMk

Is that what you told him? Get a grip, life as a taxi driver is more dangerous and pays 70% less and I bet you they get disrespected nearly as much.
Garbage men die 2x more and make 1/2. That means your job is 400% better than the men cleaning up after you, your wife, and your kids once a week; and I bet you he works 6 days gets sick a whole heck of alot more than you and enjoys considerably less benefits and PROTECTION. And you wonder WHY WE'RE UPSET?

http://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2015-dangerous-jobs/

WE ALL TAKE RISKS, learn to appreciate them (and us).

We're the public, WE ADMIT THAT WE NEED HELP: THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT WE PAY YOU FOR. The funny thing is, that 25 year old ex-military sniper (who I might add is at least the 4th ex-military sniper this country has seen that I can think of off-hand and AT LEAST the third one in Texas of all places) might've had evidence of or connections to a terrorist group that you have to be able to protect us from and you blew him to [***] smithereens didn't you? DIDN'T YOU? The ball is in your court now apparently, please by all means: don't fumble it again (you will, you should work for the Lions.)

I hold no illusions, I know that murder makes the world go round - when somebody dies you get PAID TIME OFF. It's really quite the setup. So just keep on feeding the media the weight that they need to run that inclined plane of yours through the log of humanity. Because the winner in the end of the game of votes_v_dry_would is the one with the most corrections and truths, not the one with the most omissions and blatent lies.

Face it, you guy's beat EVERYBODY. It's LAW ENFORCEMENT not LAW CURTAILMENT, really I don't expect anything less.

We all make mistakes, it's in our collective nature... but we didn't sign ourselves up to be held to a higher standard, if you don't like the job QUIT.

I bet you can't wait for the job-automation revolution. You'll just be sitting at home with some huge ass grin on your face: running your swarm. Maybe dispatching singlets to gather evidence or a little something special on an encrypted com to plant something neat. Maybe you'll run a through-wall x-ray scanner for 'hostiles', or provide spotting for artillery or targetting data for satellites, or maybe just supervise some scripts and AI... It's a dream job really, you wont even have to worry about speaking foreign languages: the drones will have languages and pamphlets pre-programmed in.

I can see it now: ONE DESK TO RULE THEM ALL.

Time marches on, and you wont sit at THAT DESK forever no: just like the one you're at now your time there will come too. Eventually us coders will have it all worked out, drones with nets and full-automation - answer some questions or be physically RESTRAINED. Sorry, but we found a cheaper source of labor that the public can actually trust. Robots don't solicit prostitution or coerce young women into blow jobs in the back seat of a cop car on duty... THEY DO EXACTLY AS THEY'RE PROGRAMMED. My concern, is THAT YOU DO TOO.

http://www.military.com/video/law-enforcement/police/cop-sexually-assaults-woman-and/2495767359001

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/DC-Police-Officer-Accused-of-Sexual-Abuse-of-Teen-296521281.html

http://www.nj.com/essex/index.ssf/2016/05/newark_cop_charged_with_sexually_assaulting_woman.html

http://whnt.com/2014/10/17/retired-arsenal-police-officer-charged-with-sexual-abuse-of-child/

http://abc13.com/news/hpd-cop-accused-of-sex-with-teen/398559/

And here you claim that it's ALL ABOUT RACE.
/me CLAPS
TRUST ME when I tell you it's not.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Allen_Muhammad#Military_service
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman#U.S._Marine_and_college_student
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Harvey_Oswald#Marine_Corps
& Micah Xavier Johnson
http://heavy.com/news/2016/07/micah-xavier-x-johnson-dallas-police-shooting-sniper-gunman-shooter-suspect-name-identified-photos-facebook-video/

According to that article, he mentioned having "planted bombs all over Dallas."

It doesn't sound like snuffing him out was a good bet to make in the public's interest do you?

AND! Why was he discharged honorably when it was recommended he not be?

I give up, pretty soon you're going to have to start offering human sacrifices to the volcano that's going to erupt if you don't start making this right.

Guns don't solve problems, bombs don't solve problems... REAL HEART TO HEART TALKS AND PUTTING YOUR NUTS ON THE TABLE ARE A GOOD START.

Anyways, I need to go OPSEC up and start preparing for a colonoscopy manual disimpaction or 'routine' disembowelment. I don't trust that between this thread and somewhere else you ACLU haters out there aren't frothing at the mouth (or dialing up the viagra). I've been beat by you guys already once and the charges were dropped I don't expect to get that lucky again. If you guys do decide the constitution is just a peice of paper to wipe your ass with some more I think you'll find that I've had enough of these baited topics. Why don't you go play with your "incendiary fear gas" and some more little kids. It wouldn't be the first time and apparently not the second.

Also, of note: while I was working this out tonight some [***] idiot in a black car was scoping out my neighbors house 2 houses down because he works "over the road" right now. We called the police, did they come? NOPE, but the local militia showed up and got a plate number.

I wouldn't mind, a little more police presence and or response. I wouldn't mind paying more taxes for friendlies, but please - send someone who's first question out of their mouth isn't going to be "who the hell are you?"; because: I'm the guy calling.

...
@Chris,
Just like with the DoJ potentially looking the other way for Hillary (Obama could pardon her if charges were levied quick enough), these Dallas cops were probably afraid of Jury Nullification or something along the lines of [omitted for reasons of acquittal].

It's revenge porn for cops. Personally, I think they'd trust the public a little more if they would've let a jury condemn him like he so deserved: I just don't think they wanted to play the odds at that roulette table is all. In cases like that where things are so clear cut I'd probably have no issue allowing the court to 'remand him to police custody'. He probably should've hung.

no judge - no jury - no justice.

[Profanity bleeped by moderator.]

First BloodJuly 10, 2016 7:10 AM

@David

In my opinion, the Dallas Police were justified in using this level of violence. The target was a non-cooperative active shooter who threatened to trigger explosives.

In my opinion people like you who fail to reserve their opinion for longer periods of time are part of the deeper problem. The lack of skepticism in this statement is what gets me. I tend to think, out of some amount of ignorance, that Black Lives Matter (tm?) is kind of stupid because the name betrays a lack of nuance similar to your sentiment's lack of skepticism. I wholly agree that racist police brutality is a major problem and has been for a long time. But I think there is a deeper problem of authoritarian/police brutality that is more about power and bullying that, while it often coincides with racism, isn't really dependently tied to it. And I think the BLM slogan may do more harm than good. That's an opinion I've been reserving for over a year now, but, in the absense of seeing Oprah or Obama giving speeches under the slogan, I'll go ahead and risk it.

Putting this situation in the context of the recently revealed Chicago PD 'code of silence', and I would think any decent opinion would involve enough skepticism to hold off on conclusion making for a good long time. I mean, maybe you are a Dallas PD officer that was at the scene and maybe you really truly know what happened. Actually scrap that, I think even those at any particular scene should have the humility to presume that they don't know enough of the whole picture to make such a sweeping pronouncement the day after it all went down. Personally I'd like to get rid of all people that watch the news and feel they can make such an un-hedged pronouncement about what went down the day after it happened.

Who, Me?July 10, 2016 8:03 AM

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/local-news/20160709-how-and-why-dallas-police-decided-to-use-a-bomb-to-end-the-standoff-with-lone-gunman.ece

"When we got out at Parkland the chief told me, 'OK, I've made the decision that we're going to blow this guy up,' Rawlings said Saturday."


"Brown told the mayor that officers would use a remote-controlled robot to detonate a brick of plastic explosive -- C4. Police departments across the country have been training for that very scenario for years. But this is believed to be the first time a chief has ever made the call to use explosives to kill a suspect and end a standoff. "

So, this was a unilateral decision by the Chief to kill the sniper and police departments everywhere have been stockpiling bombs and training for this same tactic.

This doesn't bode well at several levels including expansion of police powers to deny due process and further militarization of police treating the citizenry as enemy combatants.

pseudopsiaJuly 10, 2016 8:26 AM

@RickHRC, @JHD3

"Of course no culture is obligated to 'fix' its image. They are free to keep the status quo if they like, but I don't think they like it. They seem to just want a short cut and there simply isn't one... I wish them the best."

Perhaps you can find a better resource than this, a whole dam sleuth even. I'm just putting this out there for you. Can I release this struggle here? I must admit, I run my thoughts though these often before speaking to others (and myself), not.

15 Common Cognitive Distortions By John M. Grohol, Psy.D.
~ 5 min read ( http://psychcentral.com/lib/15-common-cognitive-distortions/)

1. Filtering. We take the negative details and magnify them while filtering out all positive aspects of a situation. For instance, a person may pick out a single, unpleasant detail and dwell on it exclusively so that their vision of reality becomes darkened or distorted.

I can't find a real scientific opinion on this in my first 3 pages of Google searching. I am irritated, frustrated, and profoundly annoyed.

Bumble BeeJuly 10, 2016 9:25 AM

@May Day

Organizations receiving federal funds or grants are PROHIBITED from lobbying or otherwise advocating for the rights of those with "mental illness" -- usually LGBT people.

The House of Representatives with scarcely any dissent has declared us by fiat to be outlaws and criminally insane, to be locked up for life if they cannot find an excuse to kill us.

Bumble BeeJuly 10, 2016 9:29 AM

But in the eyes if God there is no difference between the shrink who prescribes Haldol and the drug dealer on the street corner who prescribes methamphetamine, heroin, cocaine, and marijuana.

Tearful Bowed-Head Boo Hoo CopJuly 10, 2016 10:36 AM

Lots of people here pushing back against choreographed mass fixation on the robot, like What Does This Mean For Life As We Know It. Cops kill you with anything they want. Their only real weapon is impunity. They pull the wings off human flies with all the ingenuity of their low animal cunning and they get away with it.

US cops are banana-republic death squads come home. Except made of of panicky chicken-shit cowards. The one thing the government won't do is prosecute killer cops. Because the US government wants killer cops. Killer cops are all that keeps this bloodsucking leech of a government latched on.

Just An Old BootJuly 10, 2016 11:37 AM

@Badtux

Comparing an SKS-45 ballistically to an M1 carbine is literally apples and oranges. The .30 carbine round has relatively low "stopping power", but an almost unbelievable capacity for penetration -- as in, *both* sides of a so-called "bulletproof" vest *and* the wearer. (Additionally -- as opposed to the M2 carbine (the selective fire version of same) -- it can be easily and quickly converted in the field to full auto with nothing more than the insertion of a strip of plastic cut from a standard one-gallon milk jug (the shape, dimensions and placement of said strip I will *not* post on the net, for obvious reasons)).

Never saw or met a single guy who "laughed when an AK-47 round hit his bulletproof vest". Then again, I haven't been in any war movies or played a soldier on TV. Your Jody is showing through.

(Same with the armchair tacticians upthread suggesting ludicrous crap like sniper-to-the-leg, yada yada yada. Yeah, let's send *more* HP rifle rounds bouncing around a concrete parking garage. Jesus! Have another toke there, Sunshine.)

@all

I'll leave the legal, ethical and moral arguments to the scholars, but there's one thing I know for a hard-earned FACT: in the REAL world, if somebody -- anybody! -- is doing what that scumbag did, you use *whatever it takes* to make he/she/it DeadWithACapitalD, and A-fucking-SAP, with the absolute minimal risk to ANYBODY else.

If it was up to me, *anybody* -- cop or not -- who uses *unjustified* deadly force would be under the jail (and double-deep if they did it for *any* racial "reason"). But I'd give Bomby McBombface and the officer who operated him a goddamned parade.

OinkJuly 10, 2016 11:52 AM

Exemplary dump of F.O.P. indoctrination from your designated dimbulb cop, RickHRC. Here we have all the key elements of the cop mentality, scrambled together and horked out in attempted bureaucratic bullet points like Powerpoint for retards.

- The childish bad-guy catchphrase, with other low-normal catnip like patriotic, family-oriented, and American culture (here defined as cops killing you for reasons.)

- If we kill you it's your fault because of your unmannerly deportment because everyone must kiss my precious delicate cop ass.

- Whining, the core law-enforcement skill, because it's mean for the media to show us murdering some guy every single shift; or whining about your low paid shit 6-figure job where you never go to jail for violent crime or even lose your fat pension.

- Cheesy milspec PSYOP tricks from the fusion center: claiming to be an excluded group, in this case Native American (they call themselves Indians, you moron); modeling opinions in the hope that your audience will drop 60 IQ points and accept them; the heartwarming coda of performative gratitude for killer cops, ending with the plangent sigh of 'give.' The more you animals murder and torture and rape, the more sentimental you get.

- Most importantly, hilarious levels of abject, pants-pissing, chickenshit cowardice. 'Yeah, well, you try hiding far away and blowing somebody up with a motorized cartoon contraption in case he might do something.' Can you imagine these trembling pussies up against спецназ?

May dayJuly 10, 2016 12:27 PM

@Bumble bee

This is something I know very little about.

H.R. operates, philosophically, as a profitability model? I have heard that nonprofit accounting (and government accounting) have many different accountability requirements and objectives. I did not get that far in my studies, but I would have liked to learn more about those branches of accounting and operations.

Do churches provide public financial statements? Whole different reporting requirements I'm guessing.

Bumble BeeJuly 10, 2016 2:23 PM

Do churches ... ?

I should hope so. They enjoy certain tax advantages, and for the financial part they are accountable to their members just as a public for-profit corporation is accountable to its shareholders.

[Lol they all have big fat 401(k)s but it's a sin to get into the stock market.]

professorJSKJuly 10, 2016 4:06 PM

The volume of liberal idiots on this site is astonishing. The guy had been shooting during the negotiations and was an ongoing danger to human life. There is no difference between blowing him up with a robot or shooting him with a sniper. I applaud the police for taking this guy out as they did and I support the use of this method by all police departments in the future. As long as a shooter is still armed and is shooting, his only right is the right to die.

Student of PhysicsJuly 10, 2016 4:27 PM

There is no difference between blowing him up with a robot or shooting him with a sniper.

A lot more shrapnel? Less usable physical evidence at the scene? Psychological impact of military scale weapons used by local law enforcement? There are some differences.

RickHRCJuly 10, 2016 4:49 PM

@Oink and shirk

I can't speak to the accusation that I'm a psyops. Any good double agent is impossible to detect. I can only give my word (and a chuckle) that I'm not on that one.

Bowing down, submitting, kissing ass, or licking boots, if that's what you call it, then yes I'm postulating that that is the appropriate, fair, and reasonable response to dealing with LE personnel. Why you say? Before your mind explodes due to pride or ego related issues you should take in this next bit.

Courteousness could be construed as Submission

You're submissive (to the law) when you stay on the right side of the road and not the left when driving, you're submissive when you pay your taxes. You're submissive when you don't trespass on your neighbors lawn (or light it on fire). Being submissive to a point is a hallmark of civilized society. Am I wrong?

So what type of society do we want? Its up to us (not LE) to be submissive and productive, or act a fool and exacerbate the problem.

I should clarify, submission is not ALWAYS the appropriate response. There are times that warrant pushback. But giving DPD negative press for roasting someone trying to kill them is clearly out of order (I hear they tried talking with him for some time before deciding this action, sounds pretty civilized to me).


personal responsibility yo? Its a thing.

May dayJuly 10, 2016 6:15 PM


"According to the Center for Civil Society Studies at Johns Hopkins University, more than 70 million people work and volunteer in the nonprofit sector. Nonprofit employees make up the third-largest workforce among U.S. industries, behind only retail and manufacturing, and nonprofits create total revenue of more than 1.9 trillion annually, exceeding the total GDP of Canada, Australia, Russia, or India. But nonprofits are so much more than these statistics. Collectively, nonprofits make the world a better place. No matter what their focus, nonprofits touch almost everyone's life nearly every day."

GuideStar's Mission

"If you care about nonprofits and the work they do, then you're affected by what GuideStar does—even if this is your first visit to www.guidestar.org. Here at GuideStar we gather and disseminate information about every single IRS-registered nonprofit organization. We provide as much information as we can about each nonprofit's mission, legitimacy, impact, reputation, finances, programs, transparency, governance, and so much more. We do that so you can take the information and make the best decisions possible. Learn about our theory of change, impact and results, and plans for the future."

Slime Mold with MustardJuly 10, 2016 6:21 PM

RE: Tear Gas, Flash Bangs, Tranquilizers

1. Tear Gas: The stand-off was in a garage which had half walls, the upper half was open air. I was watching/listening live and recall two different anchors asking their reporters to get out of the wind because their microphones were picking up the sound. Additionally, the three other "suspects" (later shown to be uninvolved) picked up had gas masks, as well as unfired rifles. There was every reason to suppose Micah Johnson had one, too.

2. Flash Bangs: Reporters on scene said they had heard several explosions. They were told by police that they were both detonations of suspicious objects (as Johnson claimed to have left IEDs "all over the place") and flash bangs the police had been throwing at the gunman. Perhaps you are aware of specialty ear wear that allows normal hearing, but cuts off everything over 82 db .

3. Tranquilizers: Universal Studios is unable to use your script, or any of your future scripts. Please send them to Disney (surely you did not refer to the fentanyl gas used in the Moscow theater siege?).

BUT FAR MORE IMPORTANTLY:

When; police officers have been shot or killed, and the suspect offers serious sustained resistance, and there is not serious threat to demonstrably innocent hostages, then the police have not hesitated to conduct extra-judicial executions. This has been true for decades. The most common story is that "the tear gas canisters started a fire ". Although in the case of the 1997 North Hollywood Shootout, they merely delayed the ambulance/EMTs for 70 minutes so the perpetrator could bleed out.

As for using a novel means, it is merely more precise. I see little ethical distinction. Perhaps the frank admission is a bit disturbing. It is not news to me.

Some GuyJuly 10, 2016 9:48 PM


"How much military weaponry do the police need? The point at which they need deploy explosive devices to kill perps and suspects is the point at which they should step aside and call in the military or National Guard."

There's a reason for posse comitatus, it's a law that has an interesting history and has a lot of exceptions. When we turn the military loose as law enforcement, you have empowered politicians to abuse the people. National guard would have been legal under a governor's orders, but that we have taken time and orders.

We have turned law enforcement into a paramilitary unit, without the same level of rules and discipline as our military.

John SmithJuly 10, 2016 9:51 PM

So, LEOs used a weaponized drone for a revenge killing, and set a widely reported precedent. Did said LEOs stop to think, that that sword cuts both ways?

ianfJuly 10, 2016 11:05 PM


@ John Smith: LEOs are not in the thinking-ahead, precedent creation business, they're here to press the remote trigger, so that you and I won't have to. Now, let's wait for the Invasion of Weaponized Airborne Drones – The Sequel in the Multiplex.

@ tuff guys: much too much emo indignation in that ZeroHedge rant, would have fared better if it was (1) shorter; (2) more matter-of-factly

fajensenJuly 11, 2016 4:13 AM

@Tuff guys,

Sorry, but, Zero Hedge lost *all* of the few marbles it had a loong time ago.

Used to be chart porn and gold-buggery with a few quality rants thrown in for comic relief. Now the site is all about ranting and raving over Imminent Financial Doom worthy of a lunatic street preacher or radical imam.

Anyone following Zero Hedge missed the stock rally from 2009-2014. Probably why they are so sore.

reverbJuly 11, 2016 4:13 AM

Does this mean we can defend our homes with boobytraps finally?

[Remainder of comment removed by moderator.]

ianfJuly 11, 2016 4:59 AM


ADMINISTRIVIA @ fajensen

You missed this, which fell off the 100 recent comments in the meantime.

@ reverb

Couldn't find any un-graffitied wall space anywhere, onto which to post your latest Eternal Stream-of-Fuzzy-Consciousness diatribe? Just do not mistake this forum for such.

Keith GlassJuly 11, 2016 5:40 AM

@First Blood

Quote:

"This person was apparently military. They might have had interesting classified knowledge relating to inexpensive and effective countermeasures."

Unlikely: the person in question, a "Micah X. Johnson" was a Carpentry and Masonry Specialist. NOT an expert in unconventional warfare. . .


marcoJuly 11, 2016 6:33 AM

I do not know if it is true but I have been told by Americans that if one kills a cop in the US then one has signed ones death warrant; the police community will hunt down and kill the offender with no mercy.
I was thinking of this both in the context of the negotiation prior to the robot bomb, and the good op-sec principle of not leaking information to the adversary. It seems the suspect was immediately willing to tell the police all of what they might want to know. His name; who else might have been working with him; his organizations of affiliation and such. If the police had already marked him for dead then once relevant details of attack's origin and scope were leaked, the only reason the police had for keeping the suspect alive no longer existed.
Another reason to never leak information to the adversary.

Bumble BeeJuly 11, 2016 8:12 AM

@May Day

A nonprofit carefully curating the reputations of other nonprofits, and lauding the social benefits of the nonprofit "sector" who all work together to make the world a better place without the pursuit of filthy lucre. Great.

I'm sorry. I live hand to mouth and I simply cannot afford to pad your fat 403(b) pensions and pay your army of female social workers who lack independent housing and steady boyfriends.

ModeratorJuly 11, 2016 8:18 AM

@Cussers: Please minimize the profanity. @DriveByRanters: Peace out.

BlackListedJuly 11, 2016 8:35 AM

@ Everyone who disagrees with lethal force.

So, lets set up a scenario.

I drive up to your family get together, I shoot and kill two of your family members. Then gently place my gun on the ground at your feet.

What is your next move? Because this is the harsh reality you don't see sitting all nice behind your computer safe and sound. Watching TV judging every move of those who have bullets flying over head, wanting nothing but to see their family one more time.

These police officers are brothers and sisters bleeding in the streets. watching one another take bullet after bullet for the people who use those very rights they're sworn to protect against them.

You tell me you wouldn't take that gun and pull the trigger. I'll wait.

But I don't know anything, I'm just a 23 year old, all I did with my life was serve in the Marines and take a nice casual hike through Afghanistan. I don't know anything about the world, I don't know a damn thing about bullets flying overhead, I don't know a damn thing about hearing my brothers getting blown up over the radio, I don't know a damn fucking thing about fearing that I may not make it home to see my family one last time.

You keyboard jockeys got it all figured out.

BugeyesJuly 11, 2016 9:13 AM

Hey, BlackListed's here to share his Abu Graib flashbacks! Blacklisted. In Africa, when they bring child soldiers like you home, they rehabilitate them in a residential facility with occupational therapy and plenty o' weed. But then those are civilized countries. You don't get that.

That's why, even after you get home, you poor addled cannon fodder are constantly obsessing about imaginary situations where somebody kills somebody so everybody has to kill somebody else. That's because you live in a sick, psycho society whipped to a murderous frenzy by a sadistic criminal state. At least you got paid to get whipped to a murderous frenzy, and got a pathetically inadequate scholarship to some worthless for-profit college. Most other lumpenproles have to go through it for free.

Here, just to brighten your PTSD freakouts, here's a picture of pussy cops in soldier suits keeping us safe from winsome girls in sundresses.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36759711

DanielJuly 11, 2016 9:27 AM

How salient is this topic? Consider that to the best of my knowledge this is the first weekend post to outstrip--and by a wide margin--the Friday Squid post. As of today the squid post has only 60 comments which is the fewest comments I recall seeing by Monday morning--it's usually in the triple digits.

Obviously the topic hit a nerve.

BlackListedJuly 11, 2016 10:19 AM

@Bugeyes

Like I stated, I'll wait for your answer. I don't mind your know it all replies of how the military works. Your opinion "outside looking in" where you sit behind a monitor watching the world you so detest. You make no changes to the world, and become some self proclaimed martyr on facebook/blog/twitter posts.

I'll just say I've done something with my life. I've sheltered the homeless, I've fed the hungry, and I've clothed the naked.

You keep up the good work keyboard jockey. Fight the good fight. Show everyone you have a bleeding heart and want to be heard around the world. Where you may have more miles on your life, mine were hard miles, with blood sweat and tears.

BuggeyesJuly 11, 2016 11:44 AM

It's nice that you've done good works despite your systematic brutalization by a criminal regime that knocked over its own skyscrapers with the help of two countries and then invaded a whole different country that had nothing to do with it, and sent you there to mill around in the resulting sanguinary Charlie Foxtrot.

But nobody gives a rat's about your revenge fantasies.

...well, unless you wanna ruminate about getting the scumbags who did this, and making them pay. Then we're totally up for it.

BlackListedJuly 11, 2016 12:09 PM

@ bugeyes

You're completely wrong about the fantasies. None of us dream of killing people.
We dream of stopping people who want to kill people. We dream of saving lives.

But those who are in the picture, not just looking at it, already know that.

BlackListedJuly 11, 2016 12:31 PM

@bugeyes

Soooooo I guess we moved onto the next thing? that's not related to the original post. That article put praise on the police, have you moved on to put on the tin hat that protects you from "the man."

Have you decided to take blogging arms up against me personally? Glad to hear you have a hobby worth wile ;)

BugeyesJuly 11, 2016 12:51 PM

Hmm, seem to recall that several of your brothers in blue died on 9/11. Lots more are slowly asphyxiating from the dust. Don't THOSE blue live matter to you?

You imply that you're 'in the picture.' What were you cleared for, Secret? And now - you're a cop, right? What kind of double secret spy-cadet training do you get from the Feds? Do you buy it?

Well, it's bullshit, scientifically designed to make you a quivering trigger-happy wreck. Don't be paranoid, we have no personal animus. It's just awful to see them make a dupe of you, again.

BlackListedJuly 11, 2016 1:02 PM

I'm in the picture with the guys taking bullets, the ones who have to make those split second decisions that later end up picked apart and looked at with a magnifying glass over the course of however many years.

Because those who want to judge don't want to do the job themselves, they're more about complaining and crying about everything. Like a baby wanting mothers milk.

And we're not trigger happy, we're just trigger ready. Every second counts, because every second could be a life. Being complacent gets you and those around you killed, being ready. That puts a speed bump in the bad guys plans.

Now tell me. are you against the bad guy ending up with a bad day because we're ready to protect?

Buggy-eyesJuly 11, 2016 1:14 PM

Um-hmh. In the picture. Quite the Walter Mitty fantasy you've got going there. For a battle-hardened warrior, you're awfully scared of the unarmed populace around you. Why?

Your sad macho question is stupid. I don't need your protection. If you're scared of the public then quit. You're a twitchy frickin clown, which would be funny if you were armed with cream pies and pig bladders, but you're not.

RickHRCJuly 11, 2016 1:26 PM

@BlackListed

Amen. (its a customary acknowledgment of a truthful statement for those of you with no faith). He's right. A lot of things change once the bullets start flying by your head, so yes, please keep that in mind when judging DPD officers in this case, its hard to do I understand.

I'm sure theyve got a few bad apples just as any organization does, but these boys certainly don't look it and nor do we have any evidence that its a systemic or widespread issue (the issue of abuse of power).

BTW, for the rest of you here, 10 examples of abuse videos found on the youtubes still doesn't stack up to the number of successful interactions our LE completes on any given day.

BlackListedJuly 11, 2016 1:38 PM

You believe the this is an unarmed populace? You haven't left your little Buggy bunker in how long? Your opinions have become irrelevant to me. You missed the shootings? you missed the gang violence? you from middle of no where Alaska? you hiding in the mountains so you can avoid social interaction?

And right now if you didn't notice there is a target on cops backs, then you didn't even check what article you posted on.

Blue is the new bulls eye at this point.

And when you realize being ready isn't being scared, wait a second, who in their right mind isn't afraid of being shot when wearing a uniform weather it's desert digi camis, or not. You're a target to someone.

People used to get initiated into gangs with murder, sometimes cops. sometimes it was just waiting for someone with a missing headlight. Gang members would follow the car until it stopped, pull up. Then shoot the individual in the drivers seat. No warning, No reasoning, other than a missing head light.

You see only what is in front of you, never able to see any other perspective.

Daniel HoltzclawJuly 11, 2016 1:39 PM

RickHRC's flag-humping veteran shtik flopped, so he's back as himself to lend his massive dumb-cop cred.

A few bad apples. A few bad apples who kill some poor bastard every shift nationwide. Who never get prosecuted. With a union that's more mobbed-up and crooked than the Teamsters could ever hope to be. All on the taxpayer's dime. When you scumbags kill another brother, the taxpayer pays. You're murderers and torturers and rapists who get away with it.

RickHRCJuly 11, 2016 1:50 PM


I may have identified a problem here. A few of us are using logic, reason, history, and actual-real-research which is largely incompatible with the internet these days :P

I wonder how some of you got on this blog, were you looking for the BLM website and got linked over thru a google advertisement or something?

I sort of expected that a Security forum for primarily IT and computer science related content would be largely void of idiotic drivel and "I don't want nobody tell me what to do" non-sense. I'm all for differing opinions, just please try to see both sides at least, thats what I like to call 'intellectual discourse'.


Also I noted a few posters didn't appear to even be from the US? What sort of internal logic made you think it was a good idea to spew your non-sensical views on us? But, I digress...


BTW, bless you Marines, your history is rich with selfless men of honor. Our modern education system has deprived most of those here today one of the greatest displays of selflessness and bravery (walking headlong into bullets) in human history.

Bugeyes KnockneesJuly 11, 2016 1:51 PM

Of course you're scared, listen to yourself for chrissakes. If you're like this at home you musta been super-Timmie with all those flirty dancing boys capering around. Look if you can't handle it then quit. We don't need you shitting your pants in hypervigilant roid panic.

BlackListedJuly 11, 2016 1:59 PM

@Daniel Holtzclaw

The fundamental grouping of all cops based on their occupation is the same as me basing an argument against all black people to claim they're all gang bangers and thugs.

The principles are the same. You select a couple people, and define the entire group by them. It's childish.

You have the same mentality as Hitler and Slave owners if you want to go this route. I hope you're proud.

I choose to define individuals by their character.

@RickHRC

No one wants to do the job when it comes down to it. Men and Women of action are at the front lines protecting the very people who seek their destruction.

Then again, one bad apple is all it takes. Gasoline (protesters) converge into one location, then the match is it (bad apple makes a move) the gas sets flame and explosions ensue.

RickHRCJuly 11, 2016 2:02 PM


A people must choose and actively make happen the kind of society they want.

You want a civilized one? Start acting civilized. You want anarchy? Start acting like a fool.

So yes, it is actually a necessity that some will be patriotic since that's what participating and cheering for a society looks like. That is not a bad thing. You cheer for your favorite sports teams, so why disparage someone who cheers for their favorite civilization or country? To clarify, Patriotism is most certainly not wrong except to an anarchist or enemy of the chosen country.

All things, organizations, companies, countries have their problems. They always will, so we work to fix that. Tis the nature of things here on earth, theyre usually broken, and need constant mending.

"Welcome to earth. *punches you in the face*"

BlackListedJuly 11, 2016 2:08 PM

@Bugeyes

Well bud I guess you've turned it into straight children on a bus saying "Your face is stupid and my dad could beat up your dad". You had no valid points in your last post. I'll pass. Claiming I'm scared will not change who I am as a human being, so you can keep going as you please.

@RickHRC

Intended on looking up some Info Sec related posts for good information. Got stuck in this with Bug haha.

BlackListedJuly 11, 2016 2:13 PM

@Gilberto Valle

Referred to the post above yours, get upset. Then blog about it. I'll wait.

@@RickHRC

He's very "F*** the police" Lets see what he says to my logic of Racism = hating all police

BugeyesJuly 11, 2016 2:17 PM

Now that is stupid even for a cop. Reasoning by analogy from your favorite sports team to the state? And even that appallingly stupid idea, you only got it by sitting in the cheap seats, blubbering over some grunt who got his nuts blown off and waving flags with airplanes overhead, Zoom, zoom! at your Nuremberg Rally for dumbshits.

Hate to break it to ya, but you're not smart enough to be a philosopher. You're only smart enough to be a cop. That's why your conclusion is a punch in the face. Over the Internets, of course, when it's safe. Or when lots of pussy coward cops can gang up on somebody. You are a perfect example of why everyone hates pigs.

RickHRCJuly 11, 2016 2:17 PM


Hmm.. flag humping...

Well I do love this country. :)

Albeit, there are probably more appropriate ways to show my appreciation.

I am not in business of arguing with fools, I charge for that and no one is paying me here. :)


@BlackListed

Good luck to you sir in a world that no longer appreciates its heros and sacrifices. We can hope that your heart remains strong so as to be there when (not if) that day comes again that bravery is 'cool'. May I hope to have friends like you.

Jon BurgeJuly 11, 2016 2:32 PM

Awww, group hug! That cheesy sentimentality is how chickenshit goons with impunity deal with the public's mounting disgust for their violent crimes.

BlackListedJuly 11, 2016 2:35 PM

@RickHRC

I'll always end up here for those who want it. That's the best most of us can do at this point. I appreciate you and the way you are my good sir.

@Jon Burge

I'm confused on who the goons are in your comment.

BlackListedJuly 11, 2016 2:42 PM

@Bugeyes

I miss you, come back to talking to me. You're funny to laugh at with your "grrrrr, pigs, grrrrr"

adverbJuly 11, 2016 2:48 PM

@BlackListed,

But I don't know anything, I'm just a 23 year old, all I did with my life was serve in the Marines and take a nice casual hike through Afghanistan.

So you acknowledge that a majority of your formative years were spent absorbing the images of daily warfare. (Straight out of High School too I might add, who'd have guessed?)

Yes, those are your brothers some of them are my family too.
We are ALL your brothers and sisters, if somebody blew the crap out of you wouldn't you want them brought to trial?

Or is this just more eye for an eye?

War is ugly, do you want that @home for your children?

I will ask this again:
Do you LIKE esclators?

RickHRCJuly 11, 2016 2:54 PM

I'm not actually trying to sound mean or anything, but honestly, could try a rephrasing of that question, because I totally didn't get what you were asking.

BTW, Years walking thru other countries will help you have a deeper perspective (M. Twain anyone?) and you may also find you appreciate this one more (most of us don't have 8ft barbwired walls around our homes yet... because we don't need it here yet).

Bug EyesJuly 11, 2016 2:56 PM

@Blacklisted No. Get a pubescent mail-order bride if you're lonely. Get one that doesn't speak English though, cause you obviously can't handle criticism or any mild rebuke to your delusional self-concept. You jack-booted government thugs are way too brainwashed.

Bumble BeeJuly 11, 2016 2:56 PM

More on topic.
1. Gun control / confiscate weapons.
2. Cops kill anyone they want however they want.
3. Anyone who objects is locked up in the mental hospital and loses the right to bear arms for LIFE.

BlackListedJuly 11, 2016 3:04 PM

@Adverb,

First and foremost escalators get me where I need to go. I do enjoy them.

But, I we are to talk about the specified situation at hand. I would like to point out that he was "a sniper" according to the news. So AR15 has a muzzle velocity of roughly 3200 FPS. That's a lot of ground in a short amount of time.
So assaulting the location on foot, NOT ideal. just so you can detain the guy with a continued risk of more casualties.

It's not an eye for an eye.

It's weather or not you want you want 1 dead body (of the guy who has killed)
Or you want to run the risk of 4 more dead bodies (3 cops, 1 Murderer)

Statistics and simple math dictate you have a better chance of saving more lives by eliminating the bad guy.

I think we could have avoided the whole thing if the prick didn't go out and shoot people. But hey, the actions don't get blamed, reactions do.

Sidenote:
So Hiding and waiting or hiding and trying to get away. I can't say old boy is dead. BUT Once again try clearing a building, even if you go play airsoft or paintball. See how even that low stakes feels.

BlackListedJuly 11, 2016 3:10 PM

@Bumble Bee
What do you propose for gun control?

(I'm a gun nut with a hobby of going to the range)
Open minded conversation on my end.

@Bug Eyes
But we kept this thread going with our playful banter, come on now. But, moms about to pick me up from school. (Good news! Hot pockets for dinner!)

(Sarcasm is sarcastic)

adverbJuly 11, 2016 3:14 PM

@BlackListed,

Sorry, I missed the memo where they took him out with an RPG.

Oh wait, they didn't. They cleared a path with a cam bot, then decided they didn't want to get any closer.

Do robots not set off IED's and people do?
They had a clear path.
I'm sure that's also not the only robot in the area, two could've easily flanked the guy.

But again, it isn't about that...

It's about this:

First and foremost escalators get me where I need to go. I do enjoy them.

BlackListedJuly 11, 2016 3:27 PM

@Adverb

So you're saying this clear path means they had a shooter out in the open still holding a gun with no intent on giving up and an untold amount of ammo.

A man who has and is willing to kill again?

You're right they should have shot him instead.

and it is about escalators. do you suppose when they go down, they're called De-escalators? I've often wondered that. (This is the real thought provoking question)

Or why is Goofy just a dog? shouldn't he be able to talk like the rest of the animals? or is mickey keeping a mentally handicapped dude as a pet?

adverbJuly 11, 2016 3:27 PM

Am I reading this right, that neither RickHRC or BlackListed understood the escalators question?

Are you two too dim-whitted to understand dual-use?

The government is currently reinterpreting out laws and keeping their understandings under lock and key.

This is rudimentary stuff.

BlackListedJuly 11, 2016 3:35 PM

@adverb

maybe you just don't get the fact I thought your reference to escalators was a joke in itself.

You think we need an escalation of force for a man who took lives? why does he get that chance he just robbed from those officers?

As soon as he pulled that trigger and killed the first man. He escalated the force to *whoops looks like I'm gonna die* the fact you support the survival of a man who robbed families of their parents and their children makes me sick honestly. (everyone is someones kid, if you didn't catch that.)

You take away my family, You've lost your right to live. I hope you feel the same.

RickHRCJuly 11, 2016 3:40 PM


No I think it was the way you were asking it. You were assuming the thoughts going on in your head are also in ours. Fortunately it is not the case, but it did prevent us from understanding your analogy.

The hidden reinterpretation of our law is real though. I do agree with you there and find it reprehensible as it flies in the face of a "government for the people" spirit of the constitution.

RickHRCJuly 11, 2016 4:13 PM


I'm not entirely sure that's a real argument.

You got to work on that constructive criticism thing, that last statement doesn't really do anything but waste a little electricity and time.

Thats' what we do here in civilized discourse, we throw arguments back and forth and work thru them.

Bumble BeeJuly 11, 2016 4:17 PM

@BlackListed

U.S. citizens of age should be able to purchase rifles, shotguns, and pistols without registration, background checks, or further requirements.

Groups such as Odessa Mafia, Vory v Zakone, and La Cosa Nostra have never had any problems or inconvenience obtaining firearms despite extensive criminal histories. The rest of us should also have the right to bear arms.

Untitled*July 11, 2016 4:19 PM

Fortunately we live under the rule of law, supposedly, and you have rights no matter the crime or acusation, supposedly. This is for a reason. To protect the innocent. This is not about this particular bad guy and what he deserved or whether his actions abnigated his legal rights.

There is currently a pranking that takes place called swatting. The practical joker calls some police department and reports a barricade situation, or an active shooter, etc at some innocent victims home address. The swat team arrives in full force and takes action upon the victims residence. Innocent lives are at extreme risk in swatting situations. There was this kid in Canada not long ago out of US reach pulling this stunt frequently. Read Bruce's article and comments https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2015/12/good_swatting_s.html

Now do we want swat teams deploying bomb equipped drones and remote vehicles and robots in these situations. Does anybody here honestly think the Dallas precedent won't lead to "mistakes"? What if, and this has happened in the past, the police get an address wrong and arrive at your door with an explosive device? What might happen in the confusion?

Of course for some folks posting here, losing face when admitting their position on the Dallas response is just plain wrong is simply to much to bear. I don't care if I convince you, I have no interest in debating you, we are just on opposite sides of this battlefield. I'll just try to convince those on the fence and write my representatives, and do what little I can to stop the militarization of police forces and their unquenchable thirst for more firepower and weaponry. We didn't need it in the good old days when we were a greater nation.

AnonJuly 11, 2016 4:40 PM

@BlackListed:

"why does he get that chance he just robbed from those officers?"

Because that's the police's job. They are there to apprehend a suspect, so that due process can be dispensed in a court of law.
Killing is something that's done as the option option of last resort to stop immanent harm, not as a visceral response along the lines of "you killed my friends, now die!". Cops are people too, and this guy committed 5 murders - and he deserved to be punished the same way as if his victims never wore a badge - no more, no less.

Am I going to cry for him? Heck no. Was this misconduct on the part of the police? More than likely. The police did themselves no favors by not attempting to bring the guy in alive.

Untitled*July 11, 2016 4:42 PM

@Bumble Bee

Everyone is a "law abiding citizen" ... until they commit their first act of gun violence or go on a rampage or let some 3 year old play with their unattended firearms. Yes, absolutely, we shouldn't penalize law abiding gun owners for the acts of criminals who obtain firearms anyway regardless of the law.

Rational gun control legislation won't end all gun violence, or stop all criminals, it only hopes to minimize. It only hopes to reduce the senseless loss of life fueled by our rabid gun culture.

An automatic weapon is a weapon of mass destruction. Criminal law classifies a pipe bomb with a quarter ounce of explosive as a waepon of mass destruction. To quantify, compare the lethality of such a pipe bomb to that of an AR15. The 2nd Amendment does not protect your right to bear weapons of mass destruction.

rJuly 11, 2016 4:48 PM

@Untitled*

Is that accurate?

Criminal law classifies a pipe bomb with a quarter ounce of explosive as a waepon of mass destruction.

Who wrote that law?? Do they not realize not all explosives are equal???

rJuly 11, 2016 4:51 PM

@Untitled*,

It should read "of a total volume and component materials capable of producting" a certain amount of explosive pressure.

God that's idiodic,

AnuraJuly 11, 2016 5:08 PM

@r, Untitled

"Weapon of mass destruction" in criminal law is any device designed to kill/maim multiple people. It's not really a useful description from the colloquial standpoint. Of course, calling chemical or biological weapons "Weapons of mass destruction" is pretty silly too, as they don't (necessarily) "destroy" mass; at least explosives "destroy" mass (more accurately it releases the energy in chemical - or nuclear - bonds, slightly resulting in elemental/chemical byproducts that have slightly lower overall rest mass than the original substance(s)).

Untitled*July 11, 2016 5:12 PM

I'm not a lawyer. That's from wikipedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weapon_of_mass_destruction#Criminal_.28civilian.29

Granted in the good old days weapons of mass destruction refered to nukes, chem weapons and biological, But hyperbole is no stranger to the legislative branch so...

Nonetheless, we should concern ourselves with the lethality of weapons and the protection of such under the Constitution. There's a rational for the 2nd amendment not applying to explosives and grenades and such though armaments. And it must have something to do with the lethality of such.

There is such a thing as to much power in the hands of a single individual. No one can guarantee that they'll remain responsible, law abiding in the future. No one can guarantee that they will never lose it or snap or go crazy in the future.
I have no guarantee that you or anyone else can handle an automatic weapon or machine gun responsibly. There was a young girl in Arizona who accidentally kill her instructor with an Uzzi, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGCKFzGAfQ0 for instance. And that list goes on and on and on...

First BloodJuly 11, 2016 7:12 PM

@Keith Glass

It was speculation, i.e. maybe something they've added to BT in a recent decade. Seems like improvided drone countermeasures are likely to be in that category some decade or another.

Twisted Sorority SisterJuly 11, 2016 7:26 PM

@Frat

Our reputation is swirling ... as if we didn't look psychotic enough already.

Welcome to the world of quasi-anonymous relatively unmoderated internet discussions. There is a refrigerated water fountain and a unisex bathroom down the hall. Enjoy your stay. Cyber Rainbow Belts are able to filter their perception with RSS and the programming language of their choice. Newby Cyber Static Belts can practice thickening their skin. NSA PsyOP chat-bots are welcome at the feast of ideas. Hone your own turing test young cylon robocop.

TRXJuly 11, 2016 7:52 PM

People keep saying "robot", and that's what its manufacturers call it... but as far as I can tell the device was a waldo - a remotely operated device, not an autonomous machine.

May dayJuly 11, 2016 8:35 PM

@ Bumble Bee

Right as rain. Please no lucre for this one kind gent :)

I have known a few social workers. It’s a calling. That’s for sure.

SkepticalJuly 12, 2016 3:22 AM


I find the critiques in this thread puzzling.

The bomb disposal unit both neutralized the more obvious aspects of the threat while also possibly reducing the functionality of any possible explosive devices that the individual may have hidden on his person as part of his deranged plan.

The tactic accomplished that without risking any other lives, including that of any police dogs that are sometimes used in similar circumstances.

This was a careful and controlled use of lethal force against an active shooter, and quite clearly justified.

Sancho_PJuly 12, 2016 4:16 AM

I'm puzzled to agree with @Skeptical here :-)
The guy was actually threatening the life of others:
Lethal force justified.

Explosives are also used in guns to propel the bullet.
Important to me: Human controlled machine / device.
Human is responsible for errors.
No "AI" involved.

Untitled*July 12, 2016 4:47 AM

A bit of sophistry with some of the arguments above. Equating a brick of C4 plastic explosive to the gunpowder in a bullet. Or splitting hairs about whether the delivery system was or wasn't a true robot, when the delivery system isn't all that relevant. These are high school arguments trying to put one over on the teacher. Besides once you put a self driving app behind the remote control instead of a human...and the manufacturers are certainly eyeing robots for military and police applications. Were the Dallas police careful this first time or just lucky no one else got hurt? The police screw up all the time and so do the military with their targets. Time to wake up.

Untitled*July 12, 2016 4:51 AM

“Suppose that you didn’t make your Easter duty and it’s Pentecost Sunday, the last day, and you’re on a ship at sea. And the chaplain goes into a coma! But you wanted to receive. And then it’s Monday, too late… But then you cross the International Date Line! Would that then be a sin then, Father?”

--George Carlin

That's the caliber of the arguments I'm reading from some folks on this blog.

Untitled*July 12, 2016 5:08 AM

Justified lethal force is not justification for any type of lethal force. That's a dull fallacy -- infant rhetoric one would expect from a police chief or a law and order politician's talking points. There are rules and lines you don't cross in war and in policing.

ianfJuly 12, 2016 6:10 AM


Re: Commendable response to armed threat

[Christchurch, NZ] Confronted by armed robber, greasy joint takeaway owner Said Ahmed ignores the pistol-wielding masked man, continues with making a large chicken souvlaki for someone else, serves the bag to the waiting customer, then turns and walks away [29s video] http://gu.com/p/4z6ff

BlackListedJuly 12, 2016 7:52 AM

@Bumble Bee
Sadly I have to agree with back ground checks. I found it logical, and easily dealt with. I just pass the checks every time.

I have some thoughts on the whole "crime of passion" however many day waiting period to actually get a firearm. On one hand you have the possibility to have an individual cool down in a heat of the moment situation. On the other hand, If they want to kill badly enough to go purchase a gun, then they'll find a different way.

Like I said before though, I LOVE my guns. I was raised with them, and taught to respect them and to only use them as hunting, target, and self defense weapons. I love my, M99 Barrett, Springfield M1A, 3 AR15s, AK47, AK74, 24k gold Desert Eagle, matte black Desert Eagle, 1911, 9mm Baby Desert Eagle, 454 Casule "raging bull", Five-Seven, Ruger 10/22, .22 Marlin, Saiga 12, .243, and my 30-06. Not one of them have made a choice to go and kill anything but paper (Excluding my hunting rifles when hunting Moose, Elk, Mule Dear, White Tail, and black bear.

The war on guns can be put simple. "We don't like anything that has a black stock." My Springfield M1A can sit there with it's wood stock and no one bats an eye, As soon as I place an Enhanced Battle Rifle stock on it, and it looks "tacticool" with lights and lasers it becomes a death dealer. People who don't know about guns shouldn't be making laws about them.

@Anon
Yes aprehend the subject when he isn't armed. you're assuming it's "you killed my friends, now die!"
it's "you killed my friends and you still have a gun with ammo and intent to kill more, now die!" You're acting like the put the gun down and surrendered.
You'll probably try to put the "he was cornered" argument out there next. BUT what happens to a animal when it's cornered? it attacks.


@Untitled
The problem here lies in the teachings about weapons to the masses. "it's a people killing thing" is horse shit. you're feeding them a lie that is "guns are for killing people, and killing people only"

And old boy who died by the Uzzi needed to be more cautious as an instructor. IF you are to teach those around you to shoot, You teach them the correct way.

+ when it comes to killings and murder, People did it much larger numbers without guns back in the day. I see the common denominator being humanity as flawed, Not weapons.

I've typed far to much.......

Untitled*July 12, 2016 8:44 AM

@Blacklisted

Right right, guns don't kill people, people kill people. Heard that a thousand times and it still holds no water.

It was the instructor's own dammed fault for getting killed. It had nothing to do with the Uzi in the hands of a child, or anyone else incapable of the responsibility.

People killed in much larger numbers back in the day without firearms. Patently false. Even if you count all humans in all history and prehistory killed up to the times of modern firepower. Read the chapter, "The Mechanization of Death" in "The Making of the Atomic Bomb" by Richard Rhodes.

Why won't you address whether automatic weapons should be classified as a weapons of mass destruction, given it's obvious killing power. No one can guarantee that they won't snap and given people's varying abilities and conscientiousness, how can we give unencumbered access to these weapons?

Are you willing to guarantee your ability to responsibly own automatic and semi weapons? Are you willing to undergo periodic psychological evaluations? Are you willing to obtain training and certifications for proper use and handling of guns with yearly re-certifications? Are you willing to submit to random inspections of your personal weapons cache and ammo dump? You need to demonstrate to the rest of society your commitment and claim to responsibility.

BlackListedJuly 12, 2016 9:09 AM

@Untitled.

I've been through the proper training, I've been through the background checks, I've gotten various clearances, with the DoD.

My eight year old niece is able to fire both my ARs and the Barrette with ease on her own. Able to fire, reload, and function check. Simply put, I trained her properly. I didn't hand her the damn thing and say figure it out. While I held a camera to videotape her reaction, just for some amusement.

I held the weapon in her shoulder while she pulled the trigger, ensuring her understanding of the recoil. Scolded her every step of the way when she didn't keep her finger straight and off the trigger when she wasn't about to fire. There are dry runs, before you just hand anyone a weapon hot.

An instructor who hands anyone an automatic weapon without first explaining everything and showing how it all works. Combined with doing test runs with semi-auto and smaller mags to correct deficiencies before giving off a 32 round mag and saying have at it. isn't doing their job correctly.

adverbJuly 12, 2016 9:31 AM

@BlackListed,

You're a self described "nut". Technically speaking I don't think you're supposed to have weapons. Please, speak to a psychologist to understand the concept of ferver and fever I'm alluding to.

If I claim I'm a pimp, do I not open myself up to investigations of sex trafficing?

An 'enthusiast' would be safer to use, just like how coder is safer than hacker.

If a person can claim they're a hacker and get plucked, then a person claiming they're a 'nut' should be ramrodded too.

Like Mr. Human Resources said, examine your culture and the derivatives of.

YOU specifically should not be weighing in as:

You believe the this is an unarmed populace? You haven't left your little Buggy bunker in how long? Your opinions have become irrelevant to me. You missed the shootings? you missed the gang violence? you from middle of no where Alaska? you hiding in the mountains so you can avoid social interaction?

So this is how you treat the well-armed culture that birthed you?
Do you remember coming back to the states?
OR ARE YOU STILL IN IRAQ? "armed populace and all".

How many others have that same black and white outlook about a culture of guns?

The funny thing about Iraq and Afghanistan: I'm willing to bet that just seeing a civvy with a gun is grounds for 'dismissal'.

Want more? We can start talking about how you think that the police are some master race and that not trusting them or hating the violence they cause is tantamount to racism.

Lets see what he says to my logic of Racism = hating all police

We, er: I; do not hate all police. I am sickened by a culture of "let's hire thugs" that let's unionized murderers hide behind what was once a badge of honor. You dilute your own species, think about it.

The other side of that coin is your dismissiveness to the complainsts African Americans have made prior but you guys don't even see it...
"Make them stop."
"You first."

WE'RE THE PEOPLE, you're just some poor dumb brainwashed american kid who grew up under a culture of "yes, Führer".

There were no WMD's in Iraq, while we had recourse for Afghanistan the activities you partook in were justified under a lie. So what you're emotionally reinforcing your ideology with is based on lies too thusly.

TAKE A STEP BACK, please. Do you want to bring THAT war HOME WITH YOU?

Anyways, now instead of you idiots apprehending criminals you're going to be actively destroying evidense? why?

A) It's easier.
B) It's safer to operate drones from a trailor.
C) We're justified.

If you don't want to be a hero, don't sign up to be a police officer.
If you want to be a thug, well... That should be part of the psyche examine.

Skunks can't smell themselves.

Something funny, they technically used a WMD against the guy. Anything over 3/4 of an ounce of explosives qualifies.

If you idiots want happier people, stop singling them out.
If you want the gang violence to stop stop the drugs from flowing into this country. Like the Sandanistans if they had a better source of money (like jobs maybe?) they probably wouldn't be so hell bent on that source of income.

It's perfectly reasonable the way black gang culture got started, I don't blame them at all for wanting to protect themselves from the 50's and 60's police.

Are they still doing their job? no. But should we alienate a large portion of our country further? no. Should we put down our guns and offer them jobs? yes. People are trapped in the coffin of poverty and hopelessness and you're too pig headed to see the causitive factors.

STOP THE DRUGS from flowing into this country, eg. stop the CIA from filling their black budget coffers here in our backyard. By sending us drugs they enable a lucrative trade. By enabling that lucrative trade they facilitate murder and violence. By enabling murder and violence they facilitate your arguments. By reinforcing your arguments we lose patience with listening to the police state that is growing.

We need more jobs not more drugs.

@CIA,
I don't care how you're employed, I don't care that you keep this ball rolling (police, civilian violence). DRUGS OPPORTUNITIES ARE NOT JOB OPPORTUNITIES.

IF YOU DON'T WANT YOUR COUNTRY TARNISHED QUIT PLAYING GOD BEHIND THE SCENES.
WASH YOUR HANDS.

"Oh, but the senate floor trading congressmen love it."

It will get to the point, that writing our representatives will not be enough.

Eventually all these PTSD woman beaters will be elected to office, so i ask you: what then?

reverbJuly 12, 2016 9:44 AM

To further illustrate the WMD argument,

The charge they used was over 3/4oz, we have bluetooth exploits for our break systems. Top-down cellular holes in our transceivers. The WMD specifications speak of "taking over or disabling vehicles", those holes in our vehicle systems enable them to be directed as 'WMDs'.

Is this accidental?

Or is it more likely that the holes were discovered accidentally be security researchers at which point they are patched?

NOBUS!

Keep up the good fight, lock these idiots out of their gold mine of unaccountability with WMDs.

Gun Fighters Motorcycle ClubJuly 12, 2016 10:03 AM

BlackListed reminds me of another Afghan war vet who came back feeling like people were out to get him, What was his name? ...oh yeah, Johnson, Micah Xavier Johnson. See the problem here is, other brutalized wrecks, they make them cops so when they flip out and randomly murder people, they get away with it, and go home and teach their little nieces to kill. But Micah didn't get that cop job, so...

http://thepeepspot.com/weve-got-death-pic-micah-x-johnson-police-blew-warning-graphic/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Killer cops who grew up sticking firecrackers up frog butts got to play with a real live a black guy.

BlackListedJuly 12, 2016 10:14 AM

@Adverb

"Gun Nut" is phrase. Grow up.

I don't get how you can say the classification of a WMD is an AR15 or small amount of explosives. Yet claim the middle east doesn't have WMDs. You're adding WMD to AR15 because it fits your agenda to scare an already frightened people.

By your classification. I would put AK47 (In the middle east) as a WMD, IEDs (In the middle east) also as a WMD. Soooooo.

My claim is that the populace is armed. Police have a target on their backs.

^ Facts

To be scared is to be sane at that point. Delusions of safety (based off location) are lunacy. Yet I'm the "nut"?

I'm not claiming the police are a master race, I'm putting this on an equal playing ground for the fundamental argument that is racism. People who hate others based off of a sample of the group they identify with are childish, and have a similar delusion of grandeur to Hitler. "I'm white black people are inferior" "You don't believe in my god, You have no say in anything"


I invite you to keep poking in on little parts of what im saying and cut/copy/paste all you want to get some sort of politically incorrect portion I wrote, or spin words I say to something completely different from what I actually mean. I don't care once that starts being the base of argument. (you said this "I like onions" and I think you mean "white people need to burn at the cross because they don't like onions")

BlackListedJuly 12, 2016 10:23 AM

@Gun Fighters Motorcycle Club

I live in a place where no one is out to get me what so ever. How many states have you even been to? have you seen the projects? have you seen anything that isn't a nice little cul-de-sac? Because there are parts of the united states where if you don't belong and you're on the wrong side of the street, wearing the wrong color. You have a BAD day.

I've been there. That's the worst part. You assume it's all paranoia an stupidity, and PTSD. You actually pulled stereotypes on me, without me even paying enough attention to really notice.

reverbJuly 12, 2016 10:34 AM

@BlackListed,

No, the police did not use an AR15 to kill the suspect.

Your mind is slow moving, you're still on the AR15 subject from somebody else.

If I could find the link I think they said 2kilos? of C4.

So for all their dismissiveness about "appropriate reaction" and "no damage" to civilians, did they consult an engineer before deploying said charge in said garage?

The pictures above illustrate my concerns.

BlackListedJuly 12, 2016 10:48 AM

@Reverb

I do like how you ignored the part about the IEDs used in the middle east. Classified therefore by your logic as WMDs.

(The previous notions of the AR15 portion were from another individual claiming assault weapons to be WMDs.) That was my bad.

And I would assume that the demo team that would have bean on site would at the very least have a logical understanding of structural integrity. (but alas I cannot claim knowledge in such things.)

reverbJuly 12, 2016 10:55 AM

@BlackListed,

So you are just fine with police using WMDs at home on civilians without consulting engineers first?

You guys can't even be trusted to apply appropriate force with your hands, and you want explosives 4 hours into a stand-off?

f*** you.

Gun Fighters Motorcycle ClubJuly 12, 2016 10:59 AM

So stop obsessing about those places if they scare you. Maybe then you could think up other ways to bond with your eight-year old niece than teaching her to kill.

AnonJuly 12, 2016 11:08 AM

@BlackListed:

Yes aprehend the subject when he isn't armed. you're assuming it's "you killed my friends, now die!" it's "you killed my friends and you still have a gun with ammo and intent to kill more, now die!" You're acting like the put the gun down and surrendered. You'll probably try to put the "he was cornered" argument out there next. BUT what happens to a animal when it's cornered? it attacks."

The point about being armed is a fair point, but that brings up the problem of is it possible to surrender to a robot?

If a police officer busts down your door, and you throw down your gun and put your hands up - then the subject surrendered (at the last minute, but surrendered), and the police should not shoot him at that point.
That's not the case with an exploding robot charging down your door though. Is it even possible to surrender to it? Is it even illegal to shoot at a robot carrying a bomb? The problem I have with this case, is that outcome of killing the suspect was decided when the decision to send out the robot was made, and the suspect had no say in it - because I have serious doubts anything the suspect did when the robot arrived could have saved him (I very much doubt the police had any plans for an armed bomb was not driving out of the building). Making the life or death decision this early in the process, I am uncomfortable with.

As I said, I'm not going to cry for this guy. The problem is the precedents it sets, and the closure it denies by circumventing due process.

BlackListedJuly 12, 2016 11:17 AM

@Reverb

weather or not you're just making two accounts as Adverb/Reverb or not.

"There were no WMD's in Iraq, while we had recourse for Afghanistan"

WMD = ?????

SImple solution don't go out and kill people. Then guess what wont happen.

people wont get shot by the police.

If you got nothing to hide from the cops, then don't be a dick and let them search. They have a reason. and if they don't, F*** it prove them wrong.

@Gun Fighter

I don't obsess about these places. They are there. You must be the Ignorance is bliss kind of guy.

Personal attacks don't work like that over the computer sir. :'( i'll cry about how you told me im making my neice a killer later :'( QQ

BlackListedJuly 12, 2016 11:49 AM

@Anon


"That's not the case with an exploding robot charging down your door though. Is it even possible to surrender to it? Is it even illegal to shoot at a robot carrying a bomb? The problem I have with this case, is that outcome of killing the suspect was decided when the decision to send out the robot was made, and the suspect had no say in it - because I have serious doubts anything the suspect did when the robot arrived could have saved him (I very much doubt the police had any plans for an armed bomb was not driving out of the building). Making the life or death decision this early in the process, I am uncomfortable with."

Your point is very valid. I would hopes in terms of the deployment of a camera being mounted to see if the suspect surrenders. But at that point shooting the robot may disable the ability to detonate, or see the suspect (Assuming a camera is mounted). I would much rather see the implementation of skilled marksman, with safe distance and warnings of immanent contact. I really just don't agree with having to put more people kicking in doors (risking more lives) when it can be handled from a distance.

But you and I can easily agree on this part. Lets just not go out and shoot people. It prevents the discussion at hand from even occurring.

BlackListedJuly 12, 2016 12:41 PM

@Gun Fighter

Good job again on personal insults REALLY drove your point home and made me realize you're right.

I choose to not care if I'm searched. People always want to play the victim. Well shit, if I had drugs on hand, and I got searched wrongfully. I would be like "looks like I picked the wrong day to have drugs with me."

That's pretty much the same as being upset you get pulled over for speeding, and complaining because they were in an unmarked car. (Maybe you shouldn't be speeding)

reverbJuly 12, 2016 1:21 PM

If you scroll up, you will find that the cornered argument was already made the yesterday. Like you said that head full of rocks of your's isn't open to new ideas eg. accountability.

A WMD according to stateside sources is any explosive over 3/4oz, the government already stated that there were no 'WMDs' in Iraq. We know better to think that there was less than 3/4oz explosives possessed by the government, so we can assume that the definition you're operating under is a military understanding and not a clandestine legislative side.

This is your response, leaking the metadata of how you view reality to the rest of us.

Do we want people who think with a military mindset in a public environment that is considerably armed?

The checklist your operate from is not adequate for the safety of the people you're accountable to.

You state that if we didn't shoot people we wouldn't get shot, then what say you about police shooting unarmed men women and children due to a adversarial 'shoot first and don't ask questions later' mentality?

You're under an expectation of force, which is why the question of how you feel about escalators. But you're not accountable for the DPD so you're just a yes ma'am in this case.
So I'm addressing a mentality and general preconception that I suspect to be quite pervasive, deny it all you want but your mouth betrays your brain and my eyes and ears are not lying to me with statements like:

"If you got nothing to hide from the cops, then don't be a dick and let them search.”

They're not allowed to search, they're allowed to frisk.

"I don't obsess about these places. They are there."

They are there, and this is here (and now).

The fact that those places exist is irrelevant, those places are Iraq and Afghanistan. This is THE United States of America, again I ask: did you ever come back?

"Is it even illegal to shoot at a robot carrying a bomb?"

Malicious destruction of property #1, I'm sure there's quite a bit more trumped up charges than that too.
Public endangerment is another, interfering with official police business, aiding & abetting in the case of any wanton hackers.

Would you like me to go on? You're an idiot, unless you agree to print this out and make the points I am making to you here and now to any of the like minded shared ideology public hazards you may know and our work with you're just wasting my time and embarrassing yourself and anyone who shares whatever uniform you're wearing at this time. Please, leave the talking to the paid mouth pieces. It's probably a good idea to state that your feelings about blowing American civilians up with WMDs isn't a shared ideal with some of the US Military, the DoJ or the GAO. A LOT could go wrong with the whole "gung-ho" attitude you're demonstrating by applying it stateside without asking these questions and after talking to one of their meat puppets I'm pretty sure that I'm right.

"Your point is very valid. I would hopes in terms of the deployment of a camera being mounted to see if the suspect surrenders. But at that point shooting the robot may disable the ability to detonate, or see the suspect (Assuming a camera is mounted)."

How do you think they navigated and extended the arm of the robot? This wasn't some RC car that they would've been vulnerable piloting by mere sight, it's a remotely controlled (still possibly fly by wire) tracked bomb squad recon and disarmament robot. They were not vulnerable to LOS piloting it, blue he may have had IEDs but again this scenario does not cover a "dead man's switch". So I understand how scary this situation was.

"I would much rather see the implementation of skilled marksman, with safe distance and warnings of immanent contact."

This is exactly what alot of us are saying of you reread the thread.

"I drive up to your family get together, I shoot and kill two of your family members. Then gently place my gun on the ground at your feet."

You're rationalizing and justifying retaliatory homicide, you're dangerous to the stability of our country.

"You keyboard jockeys got it all figured out."

You're dismissive and arrogant.

I'll finish with you later, g2g.

reverbJuly 12, 2016 1:37 PM

Gee, is that the CIA quacking on television currently? What did he say about trust and accountability?

BlackListedJuly 12, 2016 1:37 PM

@Reverb

You literally took a bunch of cut and paste parts of statements on here threw them all out of order as a sort of personal attack rather than actually discussing the topic.

"If you got nothing to hide from the cops, then don't be a dick and let them search.”

They're not allowed to search, they're allowed to frisk.

BlackListedJuly 12, 2016 1:54 PM

@Reverb

You literally took a bunch of cut and paste parts of statements on here threw them all out of order as a sort of personal attack rather than actually discussing the topic.

-----"If you got nothing to hide from the cops, then don't be a dick and let them search.”

------"They're not allowed to search, they're allowed to frisk"

You're literally picking apart words and doing what I stated you would earlier.


-------"I drive up to your family get together, I shoot and kill two of your family members. Then gently place my gun on the ground at your feet."

--------"You're rationalizing and justifying retaliatory homicide, you're dangerous to the stability of our country."

This is set to put into perspective the emotional situation that those men and women end up going through, to ask how your mental status would be. You're simply sitting at a monitor and talking. If the world is so broken and misguided in your eyes, try to reshape it. Get to a place of power and move people in the right direction. We all Just want to live.


-------"I would much rather see the implementation of skilled marksman, with safe distance and warnings of immanent contact."

-------"This is exactly what a lot of us are saying of you reread the thread."

The guy who made me say that approached the conversation like a solid individual who was ready to talk. Not go crazy about "F*** the police" and "I hate pigs"

I'm not ignorant to the fact they have mounted cameras on the drones and they didn't run into the situation like Burt from Tremors. I said that in a perspective of *looks at ice cream shop* "I hope they have icecream" knowing damn well they do =.=

Gun Fighter Motorcycle ClubJuly 12, 2016 2:02 PM

I see. It's your...Choice... to bend over like a groveling slave. Yeah right. Do have a flag with a worm that says Go Ahead, Tread on Me?

How come you're the raging warrior, but that black chick in the sundress in Baton Rouge has more balls than you?

reverbJuly 12, 2016 2:11 PM

"Get to a place of power and move people in the right direction."

One doesn't need power for influence, good or bad, just placement (4 dimensions w time). An idea or concept phrased appropriately in righteousness or contempt has the power to change the world.

My apologies for a little disorganisation, if you haven't noted by my substitutional spelling mishaps I'm on a phone currently.

I love Obama, I need to find a live feed I was just victimized by racially motivated censorship of all things.

BlackListedJuly 12, 2016 2:37 PM

@Gun Fighter

You mistakenly assume I'm just bending over and taking it. I live in a populace where the understanding between civilians and police is casual and friendly.

When you get pulled over, You're probably in the wrong, Or Jimmy wanted to stop you and say hi and see how the family is doing.

Cops are friendly when the populace is friendly.

Biggest problem we have here is heroine now. The local populace helps the police by informing them of the locations of heroine dealers. Simply put. They want a better community, and the police have the ability to remove said individuals and place them in jail. leaving a cleaner neighborhood.

Directed insults still hold no weight in the conversation at hand..... D***monkey :)

contrarian botJuly 12, 2016 2:45 PM

@John Smith "So, LEOs used a weaponized drone for a revenge killing,"

While it may have also been a revenge killing, it does seem like it accomplished a societelly desired arrest of a suspect. Or it would take quite a story for that not to also be the case.

reverbJuly 12, 2016 2:47 PM

@BlackListed,

Heroin is a huge problem, I've actual seen reports claiming that since our invasion of Afghanistan heroin production there has increased. Now I don't expect concrete proof but doesn't that make you wonder if that's part of the reason GW2 was itching so badly to get America's hands into that cherry pie? Opium and Oil, Afghanistan and Iraq: there is nothing wrong with asking questions unless you're under direct orders, are you? I'm not trying to be subversive, this is just how I feel.

The medical community has members within it that are capitalizing on the public, even preying on it sometimes... There is going to be hell to pay for them too.

Obamacare was a great idea, but the medical community has betrayed it's roots for incentives.

Fanning the flames and fostering is growth.

reverbJuly 12, 2016 3:01 PM

@contrarian,"While it may have also been a revenge killing, it does seem like it accomplished a societelly desired arrest of a suspect. Or it would take quite a story for that not to also be the case."

That is what the future of arrested will look like?

Also; he may have been suffering from PTSD, depression or some other mental illness.

I'm not making excuses but there need to be guidelines, to your benefit this may also not be precedent setting.
Specially: Dallas or other western cities may have had to resort to dynamite in the distant past.

BlackListedJuly 12, 2016 3:08 PM

@Reverb

You're not wrong, I just see a radical change coming soon. I'd rather not see any more people die. American or not. People are people, We used to gaze up at stars with wonder and hopes of exploration. Now we Gaze down the sights of a weapon at our fellow man.

Gun Fighters Motorcycle ClubJuly 12, 2016 3:38 PM

Heroin? You mean the heroin that flooded in here from Afghanistan soon as you guys floundered around and blew up the country? Good thing the cops aren't smart enough to blame you for that, huh? You'd have to admit it.

AnonJuly 12, 2016 4:11 PM

@reverb:


"Is it even illegal to shoot at a robot carrying a bomb?"

Malicious destruction of property #1, I'm sure there's quite a bit more trumped up charges than that too.
Public endangerment is another, interfering with official police business, aiding & abetting in the case of any wanton hackers.

The robot is not a police officer, so it really has no rights.
I have no doubt a whole myriad of charges could be filed (including discharging a weapon in public, and a bunch of others, (except resisting arrest, since it's not arrest that's being aimed at)), but at the same time there would be a very interesting self defense argument to counter it.

A bomb carrying robot is really not much different than a bullet fired at you. Destruction of said robot before it can kill you, is akin to wearing a bullet proof jacket. I am not sure how long this drag through the courts, nor what the final outcome would be.

The problem here is that since the officers were in no immediate danger due to the robot being the only thing in immediate harms way, the justifiability of using lethal force without warning (and thus giving opportunity to surrender) is questionable (I'm led to believe the standard is immediate risk) - the fact he was armed not withstanding (and no - With 200+ million firearms in the US, I don't want the police to feel free to shoot anyone who has a gun and they believe could be a danger later).

The result of this whole mess is the appearance of retribution killing to those protesters already complaining about unfair treatment at the hands of the police (perception is reality in this case) - it's not good PR. I wish he was taken alive.

reverbJuly 12, 2016 10:18 PM

SCORE!

"Mark Hughes, Wrongly Identified As Suspect In Dallas Shooting, Asks Paul Ryan A Question At CNN Town Hall"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/mark-hughes-dallas-shooting-paul-ryan_us_57859b08e4b08608d3322893

Let's see here: PTSD, Depression, Alcoholism.

How's it feel guys? How about we gather more information with NSA Servers... Maybe all those medical data hacks are USG huh?

Now the public is coming for YOUR GUNS. :)

Dallas Sniper LOL, why don't you hire more ms13 while you're at it?

reverbJuly 12, 2016 10:24 PM

If anything happens over that, it will drive more military problems underground. People wont report being suicidal, depressed, alcoholic, marital problems, PTSD or anything else for that matter.

But FAIR IS FAIR,

DoD I studder?

RixtJuly 13, 2016 1:16 AM

I don't know how many expensive toys it really takes to catch a badguy. I really do know how many national crisis' it takes to drive the nation crazy.

Dave MJuly 13, 2016 7:20 AM

@Anon

> The robot is not a police officer, so it really has no rights.

Neither is a police dog, but the law treats it as one.

rJuly 13, 2016 2:00 PM

I'm down to the second section, but I think headlines like that has something to do with the way Reuters and others share headlines eg. those bottom screen captions.

rJuly 13, 2016 2:15 PM

To label it as copspeak may be doing the same thing the press are referencing. It's the result of compressing information into single sentence statements.

Lossy compression of language, I'm certain that's how teleprompters and old school telegrams worked.

Are the police right for presenting information in that manner immediately after an incident? Probably, as whoever may be giving those statements may not have all the information at that point on time... e.g. investigation (internal or not)

The earliest comment I see on that is July 11th, is the press attempting to button down their hatches?

Slime Mold with MustardJuly 13, 2016 8:41 PM

1. Who's thinking Micah Johnson, a carpenter/mason had PTSD? Are you mistaking that for my old MOS, Combat Engineer? Not the same thing at all. I notice the PTSD angle appearing only on fringe sites. Here's one that also claim that the New Black Panthers and the Nation of Islam are not hate groups, but groups that "promote black love". Johnson learned tactical maneuver at a civilian school.

2. As a former 12B, I can assure you that, if the photos are genuine, much less than 2 kilos of C-4 was used. The Dallas police said "about one pound". That seems right (it comes in one pound blocks), although the photos do not provide a panorama. Since parking garages are built steel re-enforced concrete beams and pillars, they could have used 5 kilos anywhere without serious structural damage - except where a slab lies on a beam, or if they spent a day drilling.

@ Anon
Current estimate US private firearms 300m +,
40% of households

@ BlackListed
Did you actually mean your niece fired an automatic weapon? Family heirloom? At a range? Smuggled in from the UK? :)

I get the impression you spend a lot on weaponry and hunting. I only own four firearms, certainly nothing gold plated. This all ends if you get married.

cqretJuly 14, 2016 5:26 PM

> Ryan Calo, a robotics law professor at the University of Washington, " [The police] know that this person needs to be killed ... because the officer would have killed him anyway.”

Troubling when even academics have a world view that killing after a few hours of negotiation is deemed a "need".

Even more troubling if his reason is not to "second guess these officers.”

Doesn't really jive with his CV.
https://www.law.washington.edu/directory/Profile.aspx?ID=713&vw=bio

Johan LozanoNovember 5, 2016 1:24 PM

First, let’s kill off a genuine fabrication: You can not use a reverse cellular phone number lookup for totally free anywhere, anytime.

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