No secrets anymore is too much. But the "label anything as secret and become untouchable", "use your peoples taxes to spy on them" and "become too big for jail" misbehavior must end.
Or in short: We want the rule of law and democracy back. We don't accept simulations of them.
"You have no rights because of secret" is not a valid position in a democracy.
Yes, of course, and very well said. I was just being dramatic for conversational purposes, to spur onward conversation on a really very important matter.
I look more, however, at the *economics* of information. What are the trends? What is the economy of information, really? What is the likely *natural* progression or evolution? And so on.
I try and observe, and I try and observe well.
Good observations is a very serious matter, by my book. We should all weigh matters scrupulously and honestly at all times. The reward is visibility. It may often seem like very little - for consider those who walk the very wide and popular road live by delusions and seem happy enough - but it is the only path to true and lasting reward there really is.
How often is it we human beings make the mistake of "missing the forest for the trees"? And observing forests have some simplicity to it: very large systems tend to change very slowly and have usually very predictable movements. Like seasons, it is not Winter in one day, but there is such a slow, gradual change, until we can say "It is Winter". Yet, as we can also observe, as human beings we have a tendency to be very bad at missing "the forest for the trees". I would hazard a guess it is because we are individuals, and do not normally have a wider perspective.
Your observation is that we have seen these large ecosystems of governmental intrusion rise in the past, and they have failed. I would have to certainly agree with that. There is also a justice message inherent in such observations -- it is endemic hypocrisy. They condemn what they themselves are doing, and strongly do they condemn it. So, we see by their own standards do they find themselves convicted.
I do believe that corruption can be measured by hypocrisy. That is, when we see hypocrisy on the rise, we also see corruption on the rise. Very often, outside observers - typically the victims or potential victims - see this corruption, this hypocrisy first. It is galling to them. But they themselves are blind to it... until the season, as it were, shifts. And they find themselves as the victim or potential victim.
That is, they do not apply the standard of the "golden rule" to the actions that they are taking.
And you, like the rest of us, are right to be concerned. Because we have seen, historically, hypocrisy in government get to ever increasing appalling levels. The last century, perhaps, even more shockingly then ever in the past. There is a danger, a true danger, which, perhaps, can be centered around a question: shall the hypocrisy, the criminality, of the last century be repeated and exceeded in this century?
We see there is the means. We see there is the motive. So, we can dutifully expect the crime.
And for those who are paying attention? This concerns us. We are also aware... not many have bothered to truly study much in those atrocities. So many have been diverted to this or that fanciful delusion, and only paid the most shallow of attention. They have become biased and deluded for their own willful delusions.
But, your opinion, as is the opinion of many who are so concerned - though often painfully cast by these hypocrites as those whom we are not - has a strong underlaying of hope to it. Which, I believe is very good.
It very well could be... the past won't, any longer be repeated. We can change. We can have a better world.
Look at slavery and the civil rights movement. Look at democracy and the rise of the concepts of freedoms, liberties, human rights... look at the progression of technology... and so on.
"As already discussed, although plaintiffs have alleged facts that plausibly establish that the NSA uses Upstream surveillance at some number of chokepoints, they have not alleged facts that plausibly establish that the NSA is using Upstream surveillance to copy all or substantially all communications passing through those chokepoints." (Wikimedia ./. NSA)
Yes, and I keep, oddly, forgetting that case, though it is so pertinent. This is probably the biggest comp sec news story this week, much more important then the hack of the CIA leader by a 13 year old.
If anything, does this not put some coffin nails into the coffin? I think this is a strong sign for despair. For me, what I keep coming across and perceiving is... just how profound their motive is. And just how powerful their means are. So, it does seem inevitable.
It is worse, because despite Hoover, despite whatever failings here and there, small and massive, of "free" nations: we can surely argue -- real progress has been and is being made. Yet, is this the future? That where this real, forward, rational progress has been made is exactly where the world's worst totalitarianism ever seen will rise?
The nations which helped take down Nazism, fascism of other kinds, Communism, authoritarianism - really, all crypto-nazis, perhaps, one could say... these very nations where civil rights were born, where liberties for all were born, where slavery and colonialism and theocracies fell by the wayside... and so much other great evils of history...
Are these very nations where the greatest totalitarianistic systems ever seen are to arise?
And truly? Is there nothing which can be done to stop them?
Are our systems of free belief, free speech, some manner of voting and democratic powers - even if just by politicians playing by polls... and so on not enough to stop this tsunami merging apon us?
This kind of "dual state" (Fraenkel) system is well known and it needs to be stopped. We are living in a continuous state of exeption (Carl Schmitt) since 2001. This has to end before it goes full scale totalitarian messianic democracy (Talmon). The longer they run the state in exeption mode, the more they get used to be able to do what they want and kill whom they want.
Yes, exactly. I put it in different words, but it is surely the same manner of thing we are discussing.
I do date these matters differently, is one thing I would say.
And, I would be a little different on terminology as to "what the new systems would be", ie, "messianic democracy".
I am more vague and less specific.
Unfortunately, elaboration can be done, and extensively so, on both the motive and the means. Much of this certainly is exactly within the realm of computers and privacy.
- they very much have the motive and the means to create substantial systems 'off the books' by attacking governmental financing, the information technology revolution makes this only more easy for them and there are so many countless ways
- they have the motive and the means to get and consolidate as much information as possible with little regard for legalities -- ethically, they will justify this by all sorts of absurd lies, ie, 'hunting for terrorists', hunting for enemies of the state', 'hunting for counter-revolutionaries', 'hunting for anti-americans', 'hunting for spies', and so on and so on. All crypto-nazi.
- they have the motive and the means to build up armies of covert operatives who are seasoned at using secret surveillance for control of VIPs via extortion, threat, bribery, assassinations -- historically, very few operatives of such agencies ever turn because they themselves are in thrall both of the power and fearsome ruthlessness of such groups and their own culpability required to even belong to such groups
We all know full and well how fragile democracies are, to some degree. We know that powerful interest groups have field days, despite the openness and adversarial, two party systems that encourage investigations be it judicial or media. In fact, we see exactly how these very systems use such investigations for furthering their own lies and selfish political agendas.
We have seen, for instance, how the change candidate, Obama, has continued and expanded on most of the policies Bush brought in. And, who is next? Trump? Hillary?
We know that politicians are extremely susceptible to even minor instances of improper behavior. They are extremely prone to secret surveillance. Unlike ordinary citizens, their entire career can be ruined by very trivial mistakes. And the same is true of judges. Elected and unelected officials alike? They are as trivial for governmental secret policing and intelligence authorities to surveil secretly as unimportant officials. And so trivial to force to go their way.
We see these court cases get failed, like the NSA versus Wikimedia case. We see that there are and have been secret courts at play in these atrocities against democracy. But, what are we not seeing even beyond these matters?
Surely, whatever even the most careful observer of these affairs see of secret America only see the tip of the iceberg.
No answers here. Only observations.