Schneier on Security

Ezekiel Lovecraft Daedulus • March 22, 2015 1:23 AM

@R topic

I had some downtime here, so did not mind going and checking out “R’s” last thread. I have to say, in reading his last posts, I have to note that my above, spooky doppleganger post was in jest. Hate to think of some poor, overly paranoid person suffering ocd taking such a thing seriously.

I feel sorry for victims of corrupt national secret services. I was careful to point out that my joke was aimed at probably some actual agent of a national secret service who has started to notice an impossible level of resources put on them. And I did just want to assure them, “That disclosure, as you expected, is not accidental”.

Those sorts are very different mindsets, however. It takes a lot for them to get scared. After all, despite all the shut doors they have had in their life, they believe they can overpower those they investigate. Evidence to the contrary might only open a door for them which previously was shut. Which reminds me of some small, but well armed band searching in Antartica, only to find “The Thing”… or maybe some small band following well placed clues to some remote planet, only to discover some massive horror, like in “Prometheus”.

However, all of that can be put to a monstrous organization like the Leviathan or Behemoth, and I think this Scorsese film well played this Atlantis riff from Donovan on that matter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHSm_ZxV18s

R, of course, seems to be of a very different mindset. Some poor genius accidentally disclosing privileged information and accidentally making various political statements while doing so.

Maybe he got arrested? Maybe one of his “friends” here was an agent? As often is seen, a question arises, “why are you so paranoid”. Of course, pretending to be really, really paranoid can say: “I am not affiliated with any protecting group”. So spies and other forms of secret law enforcement agents often use that sort of thing as a cover. When they are not playing Mr or Mrs Innocuous.

Likewise, those who are pretending to be critical very well might just be agents simply trying to find others who are critical, so as to prosecute them.

More likely, R was an agent, just playing a game with fellow agents. None very high level, just useful [‘idiot’] messengers to their higher powers. Even a Leviathan or Cthulhu needs to eat. And one person is just not enough for their appetite. They always need that little exploratory team to get the resources to bring…. everyone.

And yeah, the whole Leviathan riff to Job was about an organization, and not one person. :/

Hate to give a “contrarian” opinion here, but there probably are some everyday people posting here unaware of just how many agents and officers post here on a regular basis. Believe me, while I have an organization, I don’t, lol, give a fuck about you, or even them in terms of “what crap information they can pass out”, lol.

And, yes, I have some friends who post here, and we sometimes say “hey”, in a manner which could be said to be “code”, but, no “Son of Sun” is not one of us, lol. Apologies for that. Probably some agent trying to sadly mimic our ways. We do not utilize the forum for messaging or steganography. We do have other forums for that, and email. :/ Lol.

Ezekiel Lovecraft Daedulus • March 23, 2015 1:23 PM

@Buck

I still think it would simply be silly to suggest that no information has been passed through there…

True.

Likely they are engaged in some form of criminal activity of such significance they have confidence it would be of much interest to some manner of authorities which may post or read here. Likely they have been or are a poster here, maybe even a regular poster. They feel confident that they can talk in this way without detection. They are not organized crime nor a major intelligence power, though they may have very distant connections to either.

Most likely the poster set the terms of the conditions for communication.

However, a less likely condition exists, that they reached agreement for this behavior. And so it was a consensual agreement. That is far less probable and really narrows down much more about the group involved.

Not many groups engaged in extreme risk taking are willing to risk it all by flaunting behavior. But there are some which are.

The poster likely feels they are not appreciated, and has a strong desire to flaunt their skills and experience. They get off on posting such material in such a forum, because it makes them feel powerful, something they do not feel normally in their lives.

Not many areas of individual-group interaction involving material highly interesting to authorities where the individual is able to set the terms of the disclosure context.

Very possibly, the individual, though capable of setting these terms, may also have met his initial contact with the group he is interacting with on this very forum. It may be that they do not have other contact information, or lost, or deleted it. Or it may just be that they are pretending to have messed up in this way to give an excuse for flaunting behavior to necessarily the dour reaction of whom they wish to communicate to.

Ezekiel Lovecraft Daedulus • March 23, 2015 1:57 PM

@Gerard van Vooren

And with proof I mean proof that can convince people like Stephen Hawking that God exist.

Yes, of course. Though, I do disagree a Hawking or a Dawkins or the late Sagan are the most cynical people I could think of. I do understand how they are typically taken that way, but I have found, in reading their books, there are many areas they take for granted or otherwise are are shockingly gullible in.

But, I work in security and look for such things. I can see why others might cite them as authorities of observation.

Far more cynical scientists I would suggest are those deeply engaged in cognitive behavioral analysis. They are much more tuned to weeding out deception and tuned to the incapacities of human perception.

Or con men, those who specialize in managing confidence. A gypsy who regularly poses as a medium, making money money to do so, would be one really hard core skeptic. But, even they can be conned.

Philosophers of certain ilk more strike my taste for such matters. They do not have the obligation to accept any evidence whatsoever or anything as necessarily true or well known. Long list of names of famous philosophers who are very interested in contesting all knowledge, all together. Astro physicists do tend to sometimes get into that area, but nowhere near as much as philosophers of those ilk do, or con men, or cognitive behavioral psychologists who focus on deception.. and deception detection.

Ezekiel Lovecraft Daedulus • March 23, 2015 2:38 PM

@Buck

I wrote:
“Most likely the poster set the terms of the conditions for communication.”

I am not at all surprised, despite this conclusion that, on re-reading the posts the author made pains to attempt a denial of this very fact.

They came to me as long as the nerves, until I got to know through any worthwhile IT guy who gave me this web site made it ready.

Fact is this is the last place someone would want to set up a cryptic dead drop, unless they felt they had a strong emotional reason to do so. A compulsive desire to flaunt their activity, and some manner of emotional connection to some regular posters here which would inflame such a desire.

Ezekiel Lovecraft Daedulus • March 23, 2015 4:59 PM

@Traffic Light Never Turns Red

“The final phase is then quiet assassination and replacement with dopplegangers.” So the movies “Starman” and “The Last Starfighter” are docudramas? I knew it!

Lol! (-:

Well, I was thinking more “Millennium” or especially that awful [in a good way] pod people movie, but yeah, lol. Forgot about Starman, that was actually a really creepy in a good way one. Have to rewatch the last starfighter, can not recall that there.

Pax, I noticed is on netflix now, and may rewatch that. Memories. Much more subtle implementation in that one, but was there near the end.

… I suppose Dexter has this sort of thing as well, but just in the books. And not exactly replacing the guy, but then, he had that going back to childhood. So who is to say.

… surely some horror movies of late I am forgetting, lol…

Ezekiel Lovecraft Daedulus • March 23, 2015 6:26 PM

@Traffic Light

Ah, interesting, will check that one out, I see it is on Hulu… thanks for the recommendation.

The cast reminds me of the – I thought – superb “The Others”, but that doesn’t really count as doppleganger replacements. I suppose kind of along the same theme, but without the whole, “What happened to my spouse” context. Of course, Them, a classic, also has a slightly different take on a similar theme. Though that theme is just much too used. “V”, of course, though, I suppose is similar in vein… though these days getting a bit sick of the whole “evil lizard rulers” conspiracy theory.

Yes, K-Pax. Ah, I probably did not notice those indicators through the movie, but just noticed it at the end… good reason to rewatch it, besides Kevin Spacey (I suppose no pun intended there) is one of my favorite actors.

And Mr Bridges. Lol. Who did the similar theme so well in that other movie you mentioned.

Ezekiel Lovecraft Daedulus • March 23, 2015 8:38 PM

@Traffic Light

Actually, lol, have seen that movie, and will have to pass, though in looking up the reviews I was unaware there were five remakes of invasion of the body snatchers. The one I tend to think of is with the elder Sutherland. Really good horror angle, surely it has been used more then I can recall. But, I think, not so much.

Terminator 2 did it okay.

Under the Skin explored the overall theme, really hard to improve on that, though that presentation kept a lot of the unrealness flaw that also Invasion of the Body Snatchers faced, which Millennium did not have and so was much more… insidious.

Holy Rollers had a bit of that flair, but I need to finish it to really comment.

@Jacob on the river Lethe

Interesting comments.

I always thought the terrorists went to titty bars because they could and were going to be absolved by martyrdom. The cover aspect never occurred to me. I have thought that lie detectors were more effective because of a skilled interviewer. Surprise usually allows micro expressions to leak through. The test itself is marginal in my view. I tend to think targeted would be more effective than mass survaeillance.

That theory on the 911 hijackers is mine, maybe some others have had it. I have not studied the subject very much, and would be surprised if they did not. It may have had two purposes, or maybe your consideration is alone correct. I do not recall reading of either the CIA or MI6 utilizing that exact technique. I do recall the CIA using a technique of passing areas by setting up duplicates of the areas and running many rehearsals. Not unlike with acting rehearsals, at all, and the person involved did come from Hollywood.

There would be multiple uses for such an activity: one, if someone asked them at the checkpoint if they were okay, they could chalk it up to a hangover which they may really have had and so would exhibit signs of. Two, if a situation arised, where their intent was under suspicion they could bring up that visit truthfully in conversation and so set at ease any interviewer. And, as noted, three, it simply generally would incline its’ self to priming their minds as being – for just a little while – just another everyday person who is decidedly anything but extreme religious.

I was not noting this as a mechanism for bypassing lie detector tests, but simply for bypassing checkpoints without, for instance, dripping in sweat, reeking of fear…

As far as I know, lie detectors are reliant on the capacities of the person giving the test.

From my rather limited understanding one key point of importance is for the lie detector to set up some specific manners of stress.

Mass surveillance, I am not sure how you worked in there, but I would agree that I believe it is prone to extraordinary error. I was thinking of mass surveillance in my above post to vas pup, and specifically, however, of grabbing targeted surveillance from mass surveillance pools. eg, “let’s see what video we have on this person already”. But that was just fitting in with that post.

I am sure, however, the far better case scenario is when a suspect is under extraordinary surveillance and his or her behavior analyzed using such cues as I indicated in that post.

However, I can see that sort of technique also being applied at some choke points. For instance, a dead drop is found in a certain city park or bookstore. Up the surveillance video and utilize those indicators to help detect possible spies. (Again, glamming up this, though my case examples of mobsters and spies was not without reason, as both sorts of individuals will have distinctive nonverbal language due to, as you are well pointing out, the dissonance between their inner and outer self. To put it one way.)

People can and do look for purpose and connection. The Internet allows unanimity. However, it is bad in that psychological breaks can happen. they have done some studies with social media. The more someone lies, projects, more of their view of how they want others to see….the more the mind rebounds and unbalances. An example would be politicians, business, etc. They project confidence with public, descend into paranoia or more likely we find out they like biting women’s bottoms when drinking. … However, the need to project perfection is counterproductive. Most people are fairly forgiving about flaws when people are honest. We pay a lot of money for comedy.

I agree, on the front of just being true to one’s self, and kind of have to, as I have a distinctive manner of flamboyancy.

On the security angle, though I already led into that statement of yours, I do agree that dissonance will cause indicators. Spies, deep undercover agents, or people like spies are the more interesting subject in that problem to consider, I think.

But, I should add here, I think it really can depend on what situations the person is in. In many contexts, short of actually meeting support contacts, they would be near impossible to detect and would be better masters of image control even then the real people around them.

This might be especially true if the person they are posing as is so radically different from the real person. For instance, a DEA agent posing as a biker on a long term assignment probably would have a far better disguise then a deep undercover spy posing as a stockbroker at a major firm. So, I think the dissonance there can help, but other factors contribute, such as the severity of paranoia of the group, and the severity of possible cost if detected. That puts enormous stress factors on them for success and ‘day in, day out’ they would be hammering that into their unconscious.

I would normally agree with you about alcohol and leakage, but this is very often not the case, even when they are blackout drunk. I am not sure why, but just what I have run across, in reading. One famous one remarked on his own puzzlement about this and concluded that he was just that deeply compartmentalized.

There are probably ways to key or jack up those points of dissonance. But, it is also true everyone has a wide variety of hats they wear, and everyone has a wide variety of secrets. Really a stronger indicator in those situations I would think is just how well people can handle dissonance tests, especially extreme ones. If they are all too good at always having an answer, one can catch them at being just a little too good for cursory glance at being … that which they are not presenting themselves as.

But that alone might just prove they are a really good liar, or quick witted, and is not conclusive proof of anything else on its’ own.

In my opinion, longer video, longer interactions will tend, however to pull out a certain unconscious uneasiness from people. The more experience one has in such roles, the more attuned they likely are to others like their own self. Though, without indicators they can give conscious voice to, that would just remain at a hunch level… a feeling… which is all too easy to confuse or otherwise make subside.

Posting here for secret purposes? I guess. Seems a hard way to communicate. This blog is certainly looked at. I think it would be easier to stick your Di&$ In a hornets nest and less painful given some groups capabilities. But then as you said the security industry pushes some in that direction. Better to play it straight.

My analysis on the one poster’s crypticness was really a product of binge watching ‘criminal minds’. Normally, I find it distasteful to call out such behavior, it is rude, and it runs against the principles of fair anonymity. Considering how people innately judge others outside their own group based on a literal chemical bond to those in their own group, that level of light anonymity is extremely conducive to conversations.

Playing it straight… I don’t even smoke pot anymore. Used to hard core in the nineties and eighties. In comp sec, if you have skills to find security bugs, that puts you on a radar. I do like security subjects, though, and like to be able to be open and get into thoughtful discussions on the subjects. So, no pot smoking for me.

Though, I am generally a bit wary of people’s capacity for mob mentality, to begin with.

For people I have run into who go too far in considering security constraints, frankly, my post-mortem consideration was they may have been some manner of agent. At the time, I was blind to this consideration. They seemed so serious. But, afterwards, I realized that I knew nothing about them. And I deeply considered how all of that was likely a clever distraction, a suitable ruse.

Still, I would be hard pressed to say this about every super, over paranoid person I have met in the field. I would also be hard pressed to say all of them were likely involved in anything at all. Defcon… which I tend to avoid… wow, the paranoia there is thick. The misidentification is atrocious. And considering that most don’t even do anything more illegal then smoking pot (if even that), yeah… really it begs the question, “What, on earth, are you doing that makes you so paranoid of everyone”.

With closer friends, or situations where I had to vet people, such as for a job or open source project, I have dug into such people before, though. Came away largely convinced they were just ocd.

As a security practice throwing out all of those indicators of so deeply wanting personal security from even nation states… though, always reeked to me of, “I am guilty, I am guilty, I am guilty”.

Personal confession, though, I was an extreme risk taker as a teenager, and sometimes at other times in my life. I could not get more annoyed at someone freaking out about seeing a cop. Say, like, when driving eighty down a road with the driver passing the bong around, lol! 🙂

That stayed with me. There are people who can smoke pot in public and get away with it, and people who are “busts”. My friends have always been the sorts who smoke pot in front of cops and do so, so casually, the cop does not even look. Coolness is a very high virtue which I admire.

Don’t always live up to it, but hold it high in my morality table.

Ezekiel Lovecraft Daedulus • March 25, 2015 1:06 AM

@Throop

Iran, yes well, PressTV used to give VT a soapbox, but since VT denounced them for selling out as Al Jazeera did, the “Iranian agents!” attack doesn’t work so well anymore.

That tells me they were found out and made more sure to distance themselves from their connections. It does not tell me they are telling the truth. You can believe what you want to believe, and you will do so. You actually have no control over that.

If I wanted to game you I would pretend I buy into this, I would not break rapport and tell you what you do not want to believe.

Plenty of indicators right at a glance that the site is controlled by foreign intelligence. Far more subtle sites out there.

These sorts of conspiracy theorists buy into the faulty thinking that the only people working out there are Israeli & American. That is far from the truth. And “calling them” out is typically not something anyone ever bothers to do.

According to your world view, I would suggest, then, it is actually American, and they are trying to bring to the surface the radicals. By cycling out extremist viewpoints. After all, I did not source “why” I said they were Iranian. They could be Russian. They could be American. They could be Israeli.

You maybe believe that they are damaging to these global plots you see? They are surely not. That is extreme fringe thinking. This delusion that people can get together on extremely dissonant ideas. That they can group up and get something done. Common human viewpoint, but not meaningful when the people doing so are far outside the loop.

The delusion is only built up by claims to “inside knowledge” on “inside power structures”.

Agenda driven media controlled by the forces you claim to fear, America, Israel, who knows what else, that is mainstream work. Always was, always has been. Sure, some subcultures are hit. IT. Doctors. Lawyers. Journalists. Etc. But mainstream with some power.

“Conspiracy”, so none of those readers have any secret clubs. That is a conspiracy. Iranians, or whomever, don’t need to control such sites directly, as well. Just need a few majors in there they have control over.

It is not about “truth”. Iranians are not going to believe that stuff anymore then Israelis or Russians. It is about controlling people by telling them what they want to believe. There are other agendas. Information collection. Agent recruitment. And so on.

But that’s quite a damning association with the murderous mafia that is now killing Moslems execution-style. Oh wait, that would be FBI, not Stormfront. FBI outreach partner SPLC… if memory serves they helped finger those poor saps Nichols and McVeigh but not the other guy, oddly.

Well, I suppose you can shake your fist at the heavens then, and rage against the ‘powers that be’. Not much good it will do you.

Plenty of people in that line. It is wide and long.

These plots you are talking about are just convenient cover for the real power structures. It doesn’t matter who says it or who does it. You are talking about out of control, chaotic super conspiracies, and that is not how things work. The larger and more powerful a conspiracy is, the more organized it must be.

These things you are spouting off are just pure nonsense. A bunch of frauds. Nobody losers. Even an Iran or a Russia is not very impressive. “Stormfront” is a bunch of severely disaffected, very fringe teenagers. More concerned about beer and obnoxious music then anything else.

FBI, on the other hand, heck, I am binge watching ‘criminal minds’. Slick, smart show. Lotsa of these shows. Cops always win, cops always catch the bad guys, and in the end, the good guys always win. That’s power. And better yet? The FBI actually have very little to do with that image management.

The war is already over. Just clean up crew time.

McVeigh and Nichols were just isolated, garden variety nut balls who bought into some really self-destructive propaganda. No super conspiracy plot there. Plenty of super conspiracy plots going on, and they can be owned up to, as well. Nothing anyone can do about it.

In fact, it is all spelled out way before. Where, how? The Old Testament. There is no chaos, just your own mind reflected back to you. You don’t believe and pay the cost. Maybe, like many, you pay lip service. Maybe not. Often hard to tell which group is worst, but they all are on the other side of the line. Out of the know. Out of the power.

So, you are given over to lies.

shrug

The SPLC attack on VT’s accusations is interesting, impugning the site based on the CIA magic word “conspiracy”

Bzzt. Wrong guess.

But, if you want, I can ‘protest too loudly’ and persuade you otherwise. Either way, I get something from that.

Believe me, used to guesses. Because there are no leaks. “Sanctioned rogue” is one, but nation states do not buy into that. The false indicators are much too slick for an individual to contrive.

Small teams or agents might, working in the dark. That does not ever last too long.

I did notice that you threw out “FBI” in the first paragraph. Then, “CIA” in the next.

Maybe you could get some sort of telling reaction, of course. Which means you do not have anything, but I already know that.

That reeks of desperation. Desperation which one could play off as a wise bluff, but not to me, nor anyone I know.

Not FBI. Not CIA. Not NSA. Not Army. Not Air Force. Not USSS. Not English. Not Russian. Not Israeli.

I am exactly the sort to play that game and – at times – break off and state the truth while someone continues their guessing game and desperately tries to find some way in.

Granted, we are exactly the sort to allow you to believe, even very strongly, you have found a way in. Only to shut that door somewhere down the road.

Worse? You get some sense that happens just to get you motivated. We let people get really motivated, lotsa carrots. Then shut that door and let them sit and brew. Then, we open that door with a full VIP pass. And the whole point was control.

And at some stage or another: the fact that this is truth will keep you up at night.

Best bet. Let it go. See it is all meaningless. Motivation is an illusion. Pressure is an illusion.

But that is not how things are designed.

and relying on the very idea of Israeli government crimes to frighten you off (They’ll exterminate Palestinians, but armed attacks on civilian populations offshore… that’s where they draw the line!) It might work, except that the forensic substance of Duff’s charges is so extensively corroborated by FBI whistleblowers and NPT treaty parties. It’s not easy to put lipstick on the Marc Grossman pig. SPLC thinks you can’t tell the difference between Jews and the Israeli regime but that shtik is falling flat now that the Likudniks have burned their bridges.

Oh my, you poor dear. A sociopathic holocaust denying wannabe genocidist crying that the good guys are being more mean and evil then you get to be. Gollee gosh, gee whiz. I feel for you, I really do. I wish I were there to give you a hanky.

Hey, I know. I will ring up God and say, “Hey, Boss, this guy wants to lodge a complaint against you, I know you have trillions of complaints, but can we move this guy’s complaint to the front of the line please?”

If we are not going to answer the umpteen horde of atheists demanding God present himself to prove his authority and power to them because they are so darned smart and esteemed… why would we listen to the whinings of a sociopath who is only mimicking emotions?

If your intention was to force me to go dark for a few months, you succeeded. Good job!

Real pro. Smart guy.

Because the reality is intermixed with the silliness, I always make sure to throw in some very real golden eggs. Valuable to all sorts. And they know it. Not valuable to us, but valuable to them. So when they play these sorts of games to raise the cost. What do we do. We show ourselves as shrewd.

Believe me, I got lotsa dopplegangers. But we work together and they won’t say anything, either. Made to be chased down by even the most curious and resourceful of groups.

However, I will leave you with this consideration: we were the ones who saved Israel during the war. But, we are also behind everything. You think anyone ever has to show anything? If anything is ever shown, it is for a reason. For communication. No other reason to create “avatar” doppleganger [and other, oh so many other] human forms. Real thing.

So, very, very much more where that comes from. Or believe me, this would not be so fun.

Welcome to some times more interesting then mankind has ever seen in all their history by so much more incomprehensibly farness, then mankind could ever even begin to imagine. I would give some credit here to cinema, sci-fi, fantasy, modern tech… but that is just part of it.

Really? What did people expect anyway.

Not much.

Goodbye.