Fixing Soccer Matches

How international soccer matches are fixed.

Right now, Dan Tan's programmers are busy reverse-engineering the safeguards of online betting houses. About $3 billion is wagered on sports every day, most of it on soccer, most of it in Asia. That's a lot of noise on the big exchanges. We can exploit the fluctuations, rig the bets in a way that won't trip the houses' alarms. And there are so many moments in a soccer game that could swing either way. All you have to do is see an Ilves tackle in the box where maybe the Viikingit forward took a dive. It happens all the time. It would happen anyway. So while you're running around the pitch in Finland, the syndicate will have computers placing high-volume max bets on whatever outcome the bosses decided on, using markets in Manila that take bets during games, timing the surges so the security bots don't spot anything suspicious. The exchanges don't care, not really. They get a cut of all the action anyway. The system is stacked so it's gamblers further down the chain who bear all the risks.

Posted on February 20, 2013 at 7:29 AM • 38 Comments

Comments

Mike BFebruary 20, 2013 7:45 AM

If so many soccer matches were fixed why did we continue to see all those 0-0 and 1-0 scores? Oh wait, you mean rigged.

anonFebruary 20, 2013 7:53 AM

Sentence with the most punch:
No legal system was set up to handle this kind of global intricacy

JohnFebruary 20, 2013 8:01 AM

Seems the only way to fix sport fixing would be to take away the incentive i.e. ban betting on it.

derpFebruary 20, 2013 8:22 AM

Betting is banned in a lot of those countries but not like underground mafioso/triad bookies care about the law.

Captain ObviousFebruary 20, 2013 8:56 AM

I think you could fix it by not letting the keeper use his hands. Then there'd be more scoring and possibly an interesting game.

RoxanneFebruary 20, 2013 9:09 AM

Go look up what got Pete Rose banned. People - including and maybe especially the athletes involved - will bet on any aspect of anything. Go look at the lawsuits around Strava, where amateur cyclists can compete to be the fastest at certain loops or segments; they are cutthroat in competition. And we're supposed to think they stop when they turn pro?

The same is true of drug use during said competition, sad to say. If drugs can help, they'll be used.

The big question is: Do we care enough to take the draconian steps that would be necessary to stop it?

DifferentMikeBFebruary 20, 2013 9:35 AM

@John - it seems the incentive would be reduced if bettors were more aware that they were betting against a stacked deck. Maybe articles like this should be more widely publicized by people who want to reduce the profits of cheaters.

ChelloveckFebruary 20, 2013 10:05 AM

Wow. The quoted paragraph makes a *lot* more sense if you read the preceding (and not quoted) one. Context is everything.

paulFebruary 20, 2013 10:21 AM

Maybe soccer will become like professional wrestling, where everyone watches it for the entertainment value rather than the outcome.

(I do have to think that given the habits of some of the fan base, anyone even suspected of game-fixing may be taking their lives in their hands.)

TanukiFebruary 20, 2013 11:04 AM

Betting-exchanges that allow bets to be placed part-way through a game are lining themselves up to be suckered.

The casinos learned this centuries ago - that's why your roulette croupier calls "Rien ne va plus" shortly after the ball is dropped into the spinning wheel.

PeterFebruary 20, 2013 11:59 AM

The cops recently found evidence of this rigging occurring in Canada. Except for high school girls' team, soccer barely exists here. The idea that these minorest of minor-league games actually attracts bettors, let alone Asian riggers, is mind-blowing to me. I'd think the outcome of the games are determined more by the slope of the pitch than the skill of the players or the antics of the refs.

It seems to me the best solution is to publicize the problem, so anyone with any sense will stop betting.

Nick PFebruary 20, 2013 12:28 PM

@ Peter

"It seems to me the best solution is to publicize the problem, so anyone with any sense will stop betting."

That's how the casino industry in the United States disappeared. Oh wait, it's thriving and advertising itself on the airwaves non-stop.

XYZZYFebruary 20, 2013 12:47 PM

The casinos learned this centuries ago - that's why your roulette croupier calls "Rien ne va plus" shortly after the ball is dropped into the spinning wheel.

Roulette is "interesting". On the old wheels, with a little basic knowledge of physics, once the ball was dropped you could predict (compute) the outcome quite accurately. Newer wheels have obstacles in the ball path to increase the randomness to prevent that. But for a while there, the guy dropping the ball could fairly accurately determine the outcome.

canaderpFebruary 20, 2013 12:58 PM

FIFA is second in corruption only to world cycling. Refs waving away good goals and red cards because the guy a foot away from you dived is pretty much the norm in all soccer leagues. NBA refs were betting on outcomes until they caught I wouldnt be surprised if they are doing it again, especially now that there are anonymous bitcoin sportsbetting sites popping up everywhere

Nick PFebruary 20, 2013 7:44 PM

@ Peter

"Yes. And all that publicity has stopped anyone with any sense from betting."

A pointless achievement, then. The danger here is that it's profitable for betting if the game is rigged. And there are players willing to rig the game. The senseless people are just the funding source. The game gets ruined for people with sense (not betting) just as well as those betting.

@ Bob T

That's a nice start. Instant replay from several different directions and a ref override in ambiguous circumstances might help. Maybe also penalize players for very subpar performance or something to deter those that take falls for money.

Nick PFebruary 20, 2013 8:22 PM

I like this part of the article.

"Think about the complexity of our operation. We are organized in Singapore, I flew from Budapest, the match is in Finland, we're wagering in the Philippines using masked computer clusters from Bangkok to Jakarta. Our communications are refracted across so many cell networks and satellites that they're almost impossible to unravel. The money will move electronically, incomprehensibly, through a hundred different nowheres. No legal system was set up to handle this kind of global intricacy. The number of intersecting jurisdictions alone is dizzying. "

I'd love to see how their system works. Particularly, the number and types of misdirection, the operational costs, and failure modes they've identified. They'd have to be making tons of money on these bets b/c covert networks' costs get huge very fast, esp international. Also, traceability of electronic money is a double edged sword: using more of it can sometimes make it easier to trace and correlate everything.

That they successfully killed the investigation supports my old "use as many jurisdictions as possible" approach to hampering investigations. They also combined that approach with bribery. It was interesting that Dan and I got started around similar times. I was a baby in hacking, security and anonymity then. Later, I was doing semi-real-time, anonymous international messaging. I decided against real-time b/c I figured the anonymity would turn out to be false. *cough* Tor, Anonymizer, offshore *cough*

I think today's services and tech might make it easier, though. There's free calling systems they can employ. The prevalence of SSL and real-time web apps can make covert comms of all sorts easier. Good relays often require host computers in different countries. Virtual private servers are a 10th of what my dedicated servers would have been. The many email providers' forwarding feature can be used for mass automated relays. Open WiFi and P2P can make IP tracing difficult.

(I've not mentioned how many ways covert channels might be used for a covert organization. Boggles the mind.)

Personally, I think Mr X's successor keeps his methods old school. He uses new tech where it makes sense. I think he doesn't try to rely on fancy protocols, gizmo's, etc. Different numbers, different places, trustworthy people, relays, jurisdictions, bribes, death of key opponents.

Wisdom beats knowledge, I guess. ;)

FigureitoutFebruary 20, 2013 9:13 PM

@Bob T/Nick P Re: Instant Replay
--Maybe sounds good, but would ruin the game. Plus the "rigger" possibility now goes to who calls for the review. Just like the chess problem; you may as well give the game a new name then.

Jonathan WilsonFebruary 20, 2013 9:37 PM

The answer is to ban betting on a sporting event of any kind (whether its a horse race, soccer match, cycling event or a darts game) once the match has begun and take away betting licenses from any betting shop that allows such bets.

Nick PFebruary 20, 2013 11:03 PM

@ Jonathan Wilson

It's a nice idea but can it be implemented? You can't ban betting on an event. You can only ban public betting. Betting can continue in illegal gambling halls and online ventures outside of regulatory jurisdiction. So long as bets are made somewhere and rigging turns a big profit, then rigging is a possibility. The numbers have to be pretty low before organized crime has no interest in it.

Then, there's still the risk of local corruption within the teams, associations or event locations. There's plenty of money flowing around those groups. Where there is money, esp. cash, there's people who will seek to inventively divert it. Still, I'd say any measure that reduces the potential gains to very low amounts might curtail it.

Criminalizing stuff, on the other hand, increases the money to be made off of the activity while reducing the number of players. If the demand is very low, then criminalizing helps. If demand is high (and gambling certainly is), then it doesn't eliminate the problem. Additional measures would be needed.

WinterFebruary 21, 2013 1:01 AM

I already knew "Lotteries are a tax on stupidity". We can now add betting.

There is only so much you can do to protect the dense.

Clive RobinsonFebruary 21, 2013 1:41 AM

@ Winter,

I already knew "Lotteries are a tax on stupidity" We can now add betting

And playing the stockmarket for your pension...

The simple fact is where ever there is a "Market" people will try to exploit it for advantage. And as seen with the likes of the various finance markets, when the current market does not provide sufficient advantage you simply create a new market and so on.

The simplest market to fix for advantage is a zero sum market for the "players" with suitably pegged fees for the "operators" on each players transaction. Some players win some players lose but the operators always get their fees upfront from both players in any given transaction...

Clive RobinsonFebruary 21, 2013 2:05 AM

@ Nick P,

Wisdom beats knowledge, I guess. ;)

Depends on your definition of "wisdom"...

For many wisdom is 'The sound application of knowledge to the world around them'. Where "sound" is a mixture of experiance and knowledge, and a little luck where the knowledge is imperfect.

The way to true (guru) wisdom is by eliminating "luck", as knowledge will always be imperfect you always make sure "you cover your bets" by not realy making them, instead you charge others for your (supposed) wisdom and let them place a bet, win or lose you get the fee.

This works because all potential customers see are the results of your fees not your (supposed) wisdom.

Thus as has been observed about "Consultants" the more expensive they are, the more options and analysis you get, and the less direction they give. What you get is not clarity but a methodology by which you might get lucky...

Likewise Gurus don't give answers they get you to ask questions and provide your own answers.

This sort of behaviour has been seen in horse racing for longer than there have been "handicapers".

Clive RobinsonFebruary 21, 2013 2:59 AM

@ Figureitout,

--Maybe [it] sounds good, but would ruin the game

Have you ever asked yourself why you think this is?

And if it's correct or not?

Which for quite a few it is not.

Many studies have shown that sports fans are in effect addicts (why do you think team strip is so expensive and changed so often?).

In many cases they show more loyalty by way of emotional response "to their team" than they do to their spouse, family, friends, aquaintances and work.

Thus most "punters" who bet on football (soccer for those in the US ;-) are not placing money on a game due to sound judgment, but to "loyalty to their team" actualy as a sign of loyalty to their team. Thus they are "Mug betters" who get "fleeced" by the bookies and in most cases the clubs who use the team strip as a major source of revenue and sell season and match tickets for eye watering amounts of money.

As I've said to people before (and they still don"t believe me) I only make a bet when I know the outcome. I only say "Do you want to put a bet on that?" when I know they are wrong, thus I know I am going to take their money. Those with any sense don't take the bet, what surprises me is the number who do, not just once but repeatedly, which is why I only bet a "pound" or a "pint" and only up it to "ten pounds" for people who need to learn a lesson or I don't particularly like.

If you look back far enough on this blog you will see I know (and have told) how to always win or fix a "coin toss". My son would not believe me when I said I could do it (but not how) so I told him to get a coin from his money box so he could see there was nothing wrong with the coin and I told him if I won the toss I'd keep the coin, if I lost I'd give him the coin back pluss the same value as well. After a few tosses he stoped to go away and think about it. Eventualy he was convinced and started to ask how I was doing it and I told him if he watched carefully he would see... He worked out one bit, but did not work the other bit out. I showed him that bit and gave him his coins back. I later showed him the "three cup game" and how you fix that to win, likewise the three card game and one or two other "street hustler" games and how to rig them I also explained about the faux punter who appears to win, just to get the "Mugs to bet".

The simple fact is, not only is supporting a team addictive so is gambling even if you lose everything. One of the reason you have these "big money" lottos and lotery tickets is they know they can take much more than 50% of the money placed and people will still bet even when the odds of wining are minuscule. The mind set of such people is best sumed up by the unreasoned argument of "somebodies got to win it". They still say it even when nobody wins it and you have a "roll over" repeatedly...

WinterFebruary 21, 2013 3:46 AM

@Clive Robinson
"And playing the stockmarket for your pension..."

Stockmarkets are not zero-sum. So, even with gaming going on, it is not difficult to get small, but better than even, odds in your favor.

I admit is is very easy to get scammed in rigged ploys on the stock market. It is even easier to get fleeced in the derivatives market. But even there you can use it at better than even odds (eg, use it for buying "competitive" insurance).

As for betting your pension or fortune on the stock market. That is, indeed, betting or a lottery.

Clive RobinsonFebruary 21, 2013 3:50 AM

@ XYZZY,

Newer wheels have obstacles in the ball path to increase the randomness to prevent that.

Only it does not prevent it quite, it just puts it beyond normal human speed.

It has been demonstrated that you can build a small computer with "toe buttons" that will predict the position of the ball even on newer wheels to better than 1/20th of the wheel arc with practice.

If you take the operator or "house" fee earning "green(s)" out of the wheel, unlike many other casino games roulette is in effect a zero sum game for the players with the payout being based on the probability of the number(s) coming up.

However the bets are almost never placed in a way that has a zero sum result on an individual spin. Which means that for unscrupulous operators there were various tricks to "tilt the wheel" to the house advantage (hence people placing late bets against the table).

Because there was at one time so many unscrupulous operators, gambling had to became licensed and regulated by various "commisions" which were set up to go around and amongst other things inspect the wheels for honesty.

Some of the tricks were quite ingenious and a kind of warfare ensued where some operators would use new versions of old tricks and even compleatly new tricks to keep ahead of the inspectors.

There have been several books over the years describing the "fixes" and they make interesting reading for those with a curious mind.

At the end of the day Newton's laws win every time the wheel is spun and if you can harness them to your advantage be you house or player then you will over time win as well.

Clive RobinsonFebruary 21, 2013 4:49 AM

@ Nick P,

Good relays often require host computers in different countries

And Pirate Radio got there quite some time ago...

There are many places in Europe where you can do apparently strange but nether the less interesting and honestly profitable things.

For instance have a look at what countries and islands look at Albania?

You can actually be sitting in certain parts of Corfu and you get "beep beep" of an incoming text welcoming you to the AMC mobile phone network in Albania...

Then there is Turkish North Cyprus and Greek South Cyprus with the green line inbetween.

What many people don't realise is that most mobile phones have a built in modem that if you know how to use it you can do phone to phone connections to or from mobiles and land lines.

Also in Ireland the North (NI) is under UK Governance and legislation and the South (Eire) under it's own governance and legislation. It is well known that "Pirate Radio" took advantages in the difference in legislation, likewise in Spain and Portugal and many other places. All they needed was "cross border links" in the early days they would use cables, MF carriers on telephone lines, Low band VHF (taxi) radios and evenn ex WWII equipment.

With the advent of automatic traffic sensing traffic lights using doppler microwave moduals these were converted to X-Band links some of which worked point to point at well over twenty miles. Likewise as Amature Radio microwave equipment became more reliable and easily modifiable that was used. There were even optical links used in one or two places. Then when WiFi came along with P2P mode it was almost "custom made" for the job...

You can now go out and buy "gum stick" PC's that can have a WiFi USB connection and provide sufficient high quality audio to drive a 20-40W FM transmitter (I'm currently looking at the Raspberry Pi because of the "multimedia chip" it has in it which you can buy for less tan 50USD). All of which can be put in shoebox sized weather proof box that gets mounted at the top of the antenna mast with just a power lead comming down to ground. With the addition of a large memory card or USB thumb drive you can have many hours of MP3's connected to the gum stick including "DJ voice" so you can have an almost fully automatic "station in a box" with uploads of revenue generating adverts, program schedules and latest tracks happening quite slowly in the background from almost anywhere else in the world (It's been done experimentaly with the "studio" in Germany to South Cyprus by internet, then Wifi across the green line to an FM transmitter in North Cyprus, that points back towards popular holiday destinations in the South). Similar has been done else where in Europe...

A quick hunt on the internet with "community wifi" or similar search will bring up many pages and links to more technical information and designs that you would need including one I participated in that uses microwave ovens for real long distance (ie experimental troposcatter and EME) data comms.

For those to lazy to search you could start with,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_community_network

Erik V. OlsonFebruary 21, 2013 5:47 AM

FIFA is second in corruption only to world cycling

Cycling is not even close. It deals with millions. FIFA is well into the billions. It is hard to express both how much money FIFA has influence on and how corrupt it really is.

Remember: The single largest annual sporting event, in terms of audience, isn't the Super Bowl in the US (that's #2), it's the UFEA Champions League final.

If so many soccer matches were fixed why did we continue to see all those 0-0 and 1-0 scores? Oh wait, you mean rigged.

The problem isn't betting on match outcomes, although that happens. Spot fixing, where there's a bet on when or how many of a given event will happen -- say, time until first corner, number of strikeouts over/under, no-balls thrown in the first five overs for a given bowler -- that sort of thing is vastly more fixable and more fixed than entire matches. Most of the entire match fixing in soccer ended up with the referee and mangers being bribed, rather than the players. See the 2006 scandal in Serie A (Italy) and 2005 in the Bundesliga (Germany). Whole match fixing via players does happen, 2011 in Turkey is an example there.

But these guys are dealing with spot fixes, which is much easier to do and much harder to spot. Basically, you have to get the bribe on tape, see how News of the World managed to get members of the Pakistani national cricket team on tape accepting money for deliberately bowling no balls at specific points in an over.

AutolykosFebruary 21, 2013 7:35 AM

@Captain Obvious: While opinions on that point differ, higher scores do not automatically make a game more interesting. In low-scoring games like soccer, the outcome can possibly be decided on whether a single move succeeds or not - and a relative outsider still has a chance to win. This increases tension at critical points in the game a lot. In high-scoring games like Basketball otoh, a single point rarely matters for the final result, even a slightly stronger team will win most of the time and small mistakes don't matter. In short, you don't even need to watch the game to know the result.
At least, that's what I heard - I don't watch either of those games.
Also, I don't think most people who bet do it because they expect to win (no matter what they tell you). They do it because it increases their tension during the game (making it even more interesting). This means that:
a) They won't stop because betting is illegal (only makes it more interesting!)
b) They will probably not prefer a more predictable (high-scoring) game
c) They don't care too much whether the game is fixed, as long as it isn't obvious enough that they notice it

Bob TFebruary 21, 2013 8:50 AM

@ Figureitout
Maybe sounds good, but would ruin the game.

You mean like professional wrestling would be ruined if it weren't rigged?

You just get a good feeling from watching what you think is a real competition, and think that would be ruined. The Finnish ref can't call a foul in the box, when the Polish reviewer and everybody else who's watching can clearly see that there is no foul. It would raise the professionalism of the game and make it a real game.

Bob TFebruary 21, 2013 8:54 AM

It would also be a deterrent to those trying to rig the games in the first place by not being a sure thing. Crooks don't hang around long when they don't have a sure thing.

FigureitoutFebruary 21, 2013 1:22 PM

@Clive Robinson
--I was coming from more of a player perspective and a fan of "the" game, not whatever team (I don't watch much soccer/football and have never bet on a game; only have done "fantasy football" for fun). I did go to a casino for the first time fairly recently (just curious) and played the penny slots a couple times and that was it. Every single card game/roulette/etc. was electronic so I just watched people lose money. Except one of my friends won $160 while another one lost $200 so the casino won $40 still. All in all, a pretty disgusting sight, so now I know.

I was also talking about adding stoppages to the game with reviews and possibly looking at penalizing players if they have a bad game; not betting and having refs w/ motive to make false calls. I don't know how to stop that. I do wonder why some people are moved to tears when their team loses (unless you're a player who just lost in the final minute to a header that bounced off the goal post as I have); as well as how you rig a coin toss. I normally agree w/ (or change my opinion :) what you say, but here I stand.

@Bob T
--I agree w/ your crook-statement, but comparing soccer to WWF is a bit of a slap in the face. Soccer has more intelligence (spatial, timing, teamwork), strategy, and finesse than some meatheads putting on a theater show.

Do you think every single game is rigged? Lots of the calls I see professional refs make are spot on. Practically, do we need opposing refs for each game? I don't see how it would work and do you stop the game if the call is really close? The review needs to take place after the game.

I've had many mis-calls in my games (field player punches ball in the goal); but generally the really good teams make the refs not very relevant or they would have to be so bad the team should just walk out of the game.

JeffFebruary 24, 2013 11:53 AM

I still don't understand the attraction of all this betting in Asia on relatively unimportant European soccer matches. Who are these guys betting on these second league Swedish outcomes and why is this an attractive pastime? Can someone explain this?

Clive RobinsonFebruary 25, 2013 3:22 AM

@ Jeff,

I still don't understand the attraction of all this betting in Asia on relatively unimportant European soccer matches

I guess you don't know many people from the Far East. Betting is in the blood of many of them have a look at the History of Hong Kong and gambling.

I often used to think that some of them would bet on how long it would take a dead dog to explosivly decompose if street cleaning did not take them away before it happened...

Clive RobinsonFebruary 25, 2013 5:01 AM

@ Figureitout,

The problem with being just a fan of "the game" puts you into the minority. The supposed majority of fans appear to be actually fans of "their country", "their team" and thus are in reality fans of "tribal behaviour".

In effect it means you take an aesthetic not a "tribal knuckle dragging neanderthal"[1] view of the game. And the thing you have to remember about "tribal behaviour" is all about peer-bonding not the actuall aesthetics of the activity in question.

You've probably heard the expression "My Country right or wrong" and thought "wait a moment thats..." but it's an essential politicians rely on that is they regard us not as people who think but "tribal neanderthals" who will vote for "the party" not "the policy", and sadly in the majority of cases they are correct..

As I warn my son when he says "Dad I was thinking..." thinking is a dangerous thing that's best avoided in social company.

When I was younger there was a very general rule about social gatherings of singles etc, "Women are like cats" who are only interested in looking better than the other cats who hiss and spit at each other and bear slights for years, and "Men are like dogs" they just pile up on the carpet infront of the fire and don't care a whit about who's better or not unless it's farting, drinking or telling of tales and jokes and insults are just an excuse for rough excercise and a few more drinks, farts and laughs [2][3].

Even at Uni this general social behaviour was prevelent, it was only at the "balls" that scrubing up and slightly more refined behaviour was expected of students whilst the faculty were present (who would leave at a sensible time so as to allow a return to the more normal social behaviour).

Thinking and aesthetics were even at Uni regarded as 'being a bit odd' unless wearing your gown at the time and definatly "geeky" if your thinking involved anything practical involving maths and engineering or anything involving power be it electrical or heat. And the mearest hint of politics made you some kind of social devient such as a socialist, anarchist or revolutionary or worse...

The apreciation for the fine points of sport was reserved for those old enough to have retired from active participation and who in all probability were firmly under the thumb of "she who must be obayed" or "the better half" or other middle class terminology spouted by the "hen pecked husband".

As for the apriciation for the fine points of art it was reserved for those old enough to have realised their limitations as artists and who had thus become critics and as such were usually not associated with being under the thumb of a "better half" or anyone else at all for that matter.

Thankfully times are changing but sadly not always for the better [3]. but the stereotypes are still doing "stirling service".

The question is then what makes this "tribal behaviour" one that gives rise to both gambling and the acceptance of match fixing as a consiquence.

As noted above by others placing a bet can partly be seen as vicarious thrill seeking through risk activity, which adds tenssion thus plays a similar part to the "fight" posturing seen prior to conflict. and it has been suggested is related to the amount of thyroid and other hormons with central nervous system activity that people have in them.

[1] I'm quite aware that neanderthals were not knuckle draggers and did have a quite refined aesthetic view on life if their remaining artifacts are anything to go by. However "pop culture" has them otherwise and as with the hacker -v- cracker debate sometimes you just have to give up and go with the flow...

[2] Yes I'm aware it's an over generalisation but seriously have a look around any pub/bar/club or similar place on a Fri/Sat night and tell me you cann't spot the generalisation ;-)

[3] Sadly in the race for "equality" it has become a race for the bottom with women wanting to be more like men hence the "laddet culture" becoming more prevalent.

FigureitoutFebruary 25, 2013 10:34 PM

@Clive Robinson
--I'm quite fine w/ being a minority. :) If you've played as long as I have, there's some pleasure in seeing a perfectly placed pass in stride to a teammate, that's all. Plus, you understand that to make such a pass you kind of see a flashing holographic image of the future and play the ball there. People are going to assume or group me w/ certain groups forever so I let them be.

As I warn my son...
--Ha, careful you may make him anti-social. :)
"Women are like cats"
--Absolutely, notice how they meow for your attention then you give it to them and they walk away. Or they rub their tail against your leg like girls w/ their hair in your face. And the instant I lay my hands on them they start purring and keep coming back. :) I would add that some people are like "cat-dogs" and some people are like "dog-cats".

Thankfully times are changing..
--Yeah, but there's still only like 3 girls in my engineering classes, and they're very smart. I still say we're becoming more like Eloi (thanks for the referral) and will be easily eaten by morlocks that have split the human race into 2 species.

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