Schneier on Security

Clive Robinson • July 7, 2011 8:07 AM

There is a lot of real difference between the IRA and OBL and AQ.

Firstly the IRA were effectivly an “invaded people” trying to rid themselves of “their oppressors”.

That is they had a simple and importanty direct objective that was fully understandable to both their fellow countrymen and their opressors.

OBL did not have a simple or direct objective and failed to get a rational message across to either the “oppressed” or the “oppressors” and thus did not actually have much support.

Now if you were to compare the IRA with the Taliban or Hezbollah you will see why they are succeding in home territory where AQ and OBL failed.

Clive Robinson • July 8, 2011 6:00 AM

@ BF Skinner,

“First – Clive is this a new you”

Err no, though I did post the aboves from a hospital bed.

Though I still have hopes of being a “new me running around” with appropriate surgical intervention it is yet to be 😉

Clive Robinson • July 8, 2011 9:41 AM

@ Valerie P.,

“This statement goes to prove that the IRA propaganda campaign worked…”

How far back in time do you want to go Homo erectus?

Seriously how many generations does it take to make somebody a native of the land?

If you go have a look at what various people did in Ireland from Cromwell through to Churchill it might make your eyes open very wide even if you can try setting it in the context of the time.

And no not IRA propaganda unless they have the contract for printing most of the history books used in English schools.

As Greensquirrel mentioned the Scots have a lot to do with the mess that is Ireland the island and the people who live there. Many Protestants are of Scottish descent and how they got there is another part of the brutal history of the British Isles and Ireland.

As an interesting counter point have a look at the Irish Potato famine and how the tenant farmers were treated then compare to the Scottish Potato famine just a few years later.

Clive Robinson • July 8, 2011 2:32 PM

@ Jacob;

“@clive The Scots are actually Irish. ;)”

Yup long ago they were and in more recent times some became Irish again (but “for god’s sake don’t tell them that” look up “Ulster-Scots” and “The Plantation of Ulster” to see why).

The important difference for the last few hundred years was the religion and it goes back to Tudor times England and Scottland are Protestent countries (by laws in the case of England, and Catholics were band from political office in Ireland untill the “catholic emancipation” of 1829 not that it made much difference as the Orange Order held all but a tiny number of political posts in N.I. untill recently).

In the much maligned Ireland the non landowning (because it had been stolen from them by Oliver Cromwell by the “Act of Settlement”) people were mainly catholic dirt poor and had less worth than the livestock they tended for the benifit of the Scottish and English Landowners.

The Landowners where protestant and in later times did not even live in Ireland. They got the land by the usuall “Royal Favours” etc and passed it down through the generations and ensured it was not available to catholics (a practice that was still evident in the six counties that make N.I. less than 20years ago and catholics still come up against it today when trying to get planning permission).

Now if you are an “absentee landlord” living it up in London off of the profits of the land, how do you ensure that the money keeps flowing in?

Easy you apoint people to do it for you and you pay them a percentage of the proffits etc. It also helps proffits if these middle men are happy to exploit the tennets as hard as possible.

Now one way to ensure that outlook is to employ people who belive that the tenent farmers “are beyond the pale” and religious and racial discrimination are as we still see today a good way to do this. Thus “good protestant Scotts” and their decendents (Ulster-Scots) were employeed…

As I said earlier have a good look at the differences between the two potato famines and see especialy why land reform started with the Scottish potato famine.

Oh and “beyond the pale” is a statment about catholic tenant farmers, in that they where never alowed inside the fence (palings are a sharpend stick driven into the ground around which other split wood would be interwoven etc). Even today you will hear the expressions “he’s a left footer”, “he’s a right footer” or “he’s a two be four”. And you can often tell if you are in a catholic or protestant area simply by looking at what colour the curb stones are.

Oh and as it’s comming up to their marching season (12th of July) have a look at the history of the “orange men”.

A few years ago there was a great deal of problems in the two weeks following the Orange Order Matches that went on for several years, the solution was rumored to be a quiet word in employers ears not to allow Orange Men annual holiday in July 😉

Clive Robinson • July 9, 2011 12:20 AM

@ Z.Lozinski,

“No it’s not. I believe that’s a later usage”

Your explanation sounds more plausable than the one I was given some (more than 30) years ago because there are other similar expressions (for “the enemy beyond”) in many languages for similar encampments / fortresses. And is also similar to the use of other words to indicate ‘indigenous’ or ‘native’ people, and even today for those living in the areas inside or surounding a city such as ‘urbanite’ or that have developed later connotations such as ‘bourgeois’ (derived from the French for town dweller).

@ Greensquirrel,

“Why do either of these acts provide any justification for any actions now?”

They shouldn’t (out of a historical context), but for many they do.

When I was much younger than I am today I used to help teach young people to sail, and we used to get groups of kids from N.I. over. You would hear them talk about things that happened half a millennium ago as though it had happened only the day before.

I found in later life that this “racial memory” existed in many many cultures and was offten associated with those of religious conviction. And more importantly through the ages people had with law or religious edicts tried and failed to stop it’s effects.

It often occurs when people are persecuted and I suspect is the result of those trying to protect their culture and pass it on as a gift to their children. But over the years all that remains is the hurt that eventialy becomes demonisation.

And I see this as a real problem because we lose the historical context which stops us learning the correct lessons to stop similar persecutions occuring in the present and future.

For instance take something that is just on the edge of passing out of living human experiance, the build up of Nazi Germany in the 1930’s and what happened subsequently.

It is important to understand how the Nazi party gained power, and even more importantly how it maintained the power. That is we have to acknowledge that for the average German life had been very bad after WWI due to reparations and the economic decline that follows a war. The Nazi party made the majority of Germans lives better, food became available factories got reopened roads were built and affordable personal transportation became available. And many many more “good things” with apparently little bad initialy.

However the economic improvment was unsustainable and effectivly based on credit and Germany was bankrupt.

It’s what happened next we need to study carefully because if we look at present day Southern Europe we see a very very similar situation of countries over reaching themselves economicaly for some political ideal (being in the Euro Zone) and becoming bankrupt in all but name.

As has often been observed he who pays the piper calls the tune, but when the music stops the piper has to be paid. And as always after a party in your home you have a lot of mess and you only have three choices, live in it, clear it up yourself or have others clear it up for you. In the latter case the cleaners are going to have to be paid one way or another.

The question simply boils down to how…

And as history shows us those who can not keep their house in order will often opt for what seems like a soft option instead of actually getting on with the hard task. However at each step down the soft option route, less options become available and the real solution just becomes harder and harder. And this is where people can often turn to crime.

In the case of Governments their first crimes are usually to steal from those within by the use of punative taxation usually of a minority so as not to upset the majority. However that only goes so far and in the past they have turned to stealing from those “out side the home” by invasion or war.

To Governments war is seductive because in the past almost the first thing that happens is the home economy improves dramaticaly as production of weapons etc means factories open people have money in their pocket from making armaments and they then spend it creating strong economic churn. But it’s not real economic growth only faux, and either the music stops or you move onto the next dance or start a fight.

In Germany the way the Nazi Government stole from it’s citizens was to put in place methods by which certain select German citizens where stripped of first their rights and then their ability to work and then their property and lives. Thus they had no right of complaint as the Government handed their jobs to others, then their property to others and eventually even their bodies where appropriated and used to make payment to others.

But the important point is not that it was done that is now past and we can not undo it, but how it was done so we can stop it happening again.

As almost always it started with and was maintained with popular support and what appeared to be innocuous laws and rules that only applied to other people… That is by pandering to peoples self interest at the expense of others.

In Europe and America we are once again at a point where the economies due to self interest and political stupidity have collapsed due to lack of sustainable growth. The question is thus do we take the soft seductive path, or the harder but sensible path, so far the signs are not good.

America and the UK have entered into a faux war that due to “out sourcing” did not kick start the home economies, and the Southern European countries are holding out their hands to the Northern European countries on the threat of pay us or we demolish the Euro house…

What we need is to understand the proper lessons of history and not allow ourselves to be seduced down the wrong roads. Robbing Peter to pay Paul is not the way to go, living within our means and working hard for Peter to earn the money to pay Paul is but it’s going to be hard not soft.

The continuing problems in N.I., the middle east, far eastern european and many many other areas are based on the false perception of history for self interested reasons both by individuals and governments. The only way to stop it is to correctly learn from historical facts not tales that grow further from the truth on each telling.

Clive Robinson • July 9, 2011 4:47 AM

@ wkwillis,

“… the Germans borrowed more money from the US than they paid to the Brits French, Belgians, etc…”

I was aware from looking into it some years ago the German State and some other German entities were borowing money but how much was comming in from where and to whom was unclear at the time. Likewise what was going out in reparations and purchases (for food raw material etc) has been a murky area.

Back when I looked the figures from the various historians varied wildly and the few sources available to me back then suggested that various people were cooking the books.

One such cooking was re casting of gold held by the Germans for reserve purposes, it appears that they were adding other metals to the mix etc.

I guess more information has become available more readily since then do you have any upto date refrences?