Schneier on Security

Clive Robinson • November 7, 2008 10:21 AM

Just to point a few things out.

1, RIPA was not brought into being to give authority to "Investigate", it supposadly put in place a legal framework by which Investigation was regulated (and in theory) put in place limitations of what could and could not be done and by whom.

2, The current central UK government has no money to bribe people for the next election. And having already raided pension funds etc cannot raise more by direct taxation or indirect taxation for that matter. Their solution give less to local governments and give them the ability to raise extra funding by fines etc. However they are not supposed to profit by the fines...

The result is that RIPA told local government what is permissable so where as before they did not do it due to the "fear of unknown consiquences" some now do.

Having gone to the lengths of aquiring the equipment and people they now have to justify them etc.

Now although they are only supposed to use the fines as punishment not for profit it realy does not work that way.

The fines for putting out to early or not putting it in exactly the right place are around 150USD per offence.

However the local government can do all sorts of shady fund shifting to apparently not show a profit...

Actual reported cases are people being fined for putting the wheelie bin the wrong way around, having a tea bag in a recycling box (not in landfill box), using the wrong colour bag for the refuse it contains, having wet paper (not dry) in a recycling box, using a plastic shopping bag to seperate glass from plastic in a recycling box, to name but a few.

Yes it appears to be madness unless you realise it's true purpose which is to alow backdoor "taxation".

Other areas are having to get planning permission to replace a broken window, to install or change an electricity socket in a kitchen or other fitting in a bathroom.

Soon to come to a home in Northan Ireland is property tax based on the view from your window, if you have central heating or have painted your house recently. The local government people who's job it is to assess your property have draconian powers backed up by criminal prosecution for not complying with their whims and whishes...

Yes the world is going mad and it's started in parts of the UK near you and is comming to the rest of the world soon.

Clive Robinson • November 7, 2008 10:43 AM

Oh I forgot to mention the best one of them all,

A man was fined for putting rubish in a street litter bin...

Now I don't know about you folks but I thought the purpose of a litter bin was to put rubish in.

Apparently the rubish he put in "two items of junk mail" should not be put in a street litter bin but in a house hold bin...

Now I don't know about you folks but I have to ask myself either what medication or what incentive scheam the council worker was on. Or how it was ever alowed to be processed through the system, the council concerned mut have realised just how embarising it was going to be for them.

Clive Robinson • November 7, 2008 11:00 AM

@ papa zita,

"The only thing I remember about newspapers in the UK is the joke in Yes, Prime Minister about them (and even that's hazy except the punch line)."

You mean,

Sir Hump : Minister, the Times is read by those that rule the country, the Telegraph by those that think they run the country,

PPS : and the Sun is read by those who don't care about who runs the country as long as they have big t1t5.

Clive Robinson • November 7, 2008 11:44 AM

@ Davi Ottenheimer,

"Has anyone considered mischievous neighbors who would pull bins into the street early or mix waste to get others in trouble with the council?"

Yes and one journo actually asked a concil official who was extolling the virtues of a 2000USD fine, the response was to pt it mildly deogatory of those that pay his wages. And summed up was basicaly "that's not our problem, and you will be fined".

It is unfortunatly the little "tin pot dictator" attitude the current encumbrents in Downing St encorage as it takes the heat off of them and their gross mismanagment of just about every part of the UK they have responsability for.

Clive Robinson • November 7, 2008 2:15 PM

The sad fact in the UK is the only plastic that gets any real attention for recycling is milk bottles.

Most card stiff/ paper etc gets contaminated by TetraPaks or waxed cardboard cartons so is of very low grade for recycling. And as for newspapers it's worth more as a fuel than recycling as paper (due to modern "safe" print inks etc). The same problem exists for glossy papers and inks used in magazines hand outs and flyers etc.

The realy stupid thing is that most of the UK Governments requirments on recycling are based on weight nothing else. So wet newspaper is King when it comes to paying lip service to being "eco friendly" as it weighs more than crushed cans etc...

It's the system that needs changing, East Germany used to recycle 80% of it's packaging etc prior to the wall comming down.

Clive Robinson • November 8, 2008 3:36 AM

@ Jef Poskanzer,

"Now I'm thinking about deploying a garbagecam to figure out which of my neighbors is adding their trash to my bin."

If you are in the UK make sure you comply with all the Data Protection Regs.

It is noticable that Authorities are increasingly hiding behind RIPA to get away with installing (potentialy) intrusive survalence technology in areas that significantly overlook private property (and in some cases right through bedroom windows). A number use non visable light technology (ie IR and heat) which can see through curtains and blinds considerably more effectivly than visable light cameras...

If however (as I found out) you install equipment on your private property to record the comings and goings (or lack there of) of council refuse men you get some serious threats from both the council neardowells and from representatives of the company that the council has outsourced to...

It's one law for them (blanket immunity) and it's another (do it and be fined) for the rest of us...

On another note it is interesting to see where some of these council neardowells come from. Some councils (Chelse and Westminster) are employing retired police constables, who are getting effectivly paid twice.

A number of these ex-police constables time served their way through the police and where never promoted or advanced in any way but took early / medical retirment on a final salary pension as soon as they could.

They then sort and found relativly well paid employment with local councils where they draw full pay and get back into another final salary pension, whilst drawing their full benifit from their police pension...

Not that this behaviour is restricted to the lower ranks, the press reported a case of a deputy commissioner retiring from one police force and then reappearing in another police force whilst still drawing their full pension and other benifits from their previous force.

And it is unfortunatly the hard pressed council tax payer that is directly funding these peoples double pensions as well as their new salary...

Clive Robinson • November 9, 2008 8:51 AM

@ Iain Coleman,

I'm calling you a liar, your argument,

"Reducing the frequency of general waste collections, thus reducing the quantity of waste that a houseold can send to landfill"

Is a very very silly argument that is without logic.

What you are actually saying is,

"We will charge you as much as we can get awaywith to take as little as possible away as infrequently as posible. Therefor any surpluss is for you to worry about and us to fine you over to make more money to waste on other stupid ideas".

Sorry it that gets your blood up but when you try to pressent a rarional for greed as an environmental good you realy should expect people to rain on your political clap trap.

I'm old enough to remember the problems when bin men went on strike. The fly tipping the stench the pests and the health risks that followed.

Saying we are only going to pick up once every two weeks is plainly and unarguably a cost saving excersise nothing more and is seriously engendering public health.

If you want to try the environmental argument keep the weekly collections but halve the size of the wheelie bins.

Your false arguments are way to easy to see and point out.

And I as a council tax payer am very very sick of being held to ransom by a bunch of lackluster out moded neardowells who waste not only my money but my time as well.

Further, unfortunatly due to the failings of the representational democracy model we cannot get rid of the lot of you and replace it with something more appropriate to the modern age.

Clive Robinson • November 9, 2008 4:21 PM

@ Iain Coleman,

You asked at the bottom of your post,

"I hope you find this information useful."

Yes I did, and I will take your points one at a time,

" Firstly, the savings obtained in Cambridge by moving to fortnightly general waste collections"

Thank you for confirming my basic point switching from weekly to fortnightly collections was a cost reduction excercise.

The fact that the savings,

"were used to provide a new plastics recycling service"

Does not change the fact that it was a cost savings excersice, as far as refuse collection was concerned.

"The word "greed" is rather a daft one to use: neither councillors nor council officers benefit financially from this kind of change."

I will not argue the point for the borough you were a councilor for, however for berevity I will suggest you have a gander at Private Eye's "Rotten Boroughs" for you to assess just how many elected and unelected council officials are receving excessive renumeration via expenses, accociated work, and down right fraud and deception. The simple fact is that the fortnightly artical mentions on average five different serious fiddles that it is aware of from across the UK. So your statment is at best one of "the way it should be" as opposed to an actuality in many boroughs.

"Secondly, I can absolutely assure you that my motivation for doing this was entirely environmental: increasing the recycling rate and reducing the quantity of waste going to landfill. I know this, because I know what was in my mind when I made the decision."

I cannot answer for what was or was not in your mind at the time so it is a mute point. However being quit famillier with a number of Lib Dems both at council and commons level I have little reason to question your statment. However you have to also ask if you were doing the right thing environmentaly (see my comments further down about shopping bags).

"Thirdly, anyone with two brain cells to scratch together should realise that making this change for any reason other than its direct environmental benefits would be insane."

Actually no there are quite a few councils around (mainly inner city) where I have seen information that actually shows that they regard it as being for costing purposes and their figures do to a limited extent make sense (also see my comments further down about expenditure justification).

"Doing this involved a great deal of work by myself and my officers in order to overcome formidable political difficulties."

This is a matter of changing opinions in those with possibly vested interests the cost of your and your officers time was probably negligable in comparison to the cost of your plastics recycling facility.

"If it had just been about saving revenue, we would never have gone down that route. There are far easier ways to save money."

In your council this may well have been true at the time, in others maybe not.

You have to ask the question of why the current commons incumbrants through the office of the Dept PM thought it was worth while allowing the changes to be made if the could not meet the primary requirment of "All expenditure has to be justified by an associated cost savings" which has been the primary mantra since before Maggie Thatcher was PM and is thoroughly engrained in civil servant thinking.

"Fouthly, there was no public health hazard. Wheeled bins contain waste perfectly well."

Yes and in Several London boroughs a simple visual inspection will show rodent teeth marks where they have chewed their way into the bins. Likewise there is considerable eye wittness reports often supported by CCTV footage of foxes cats and other quadrapeds draging food and other waste out. Then ther is the issue of over fill lifting the lid and allowing blow flies etc to lay eggs and have them reach maturity (it avarages between 6 and 12 days in the UK... hence the benifit of 7 day collection over 14day).

You confirm my point with,

"Under the fortnightly system, this collection alternated with the general waste collection, so residents could put their kitchen and other organic waste out to be collected every week if they so wished."

Why would this be of concern and the associated expenditure if there was no percieved or actual health hazzard?

Oh and what about human waste such as nappies, sanitry products and surgical dressings etc?

"Fifth: we never made a profit on environmental enforcement, far from it. Enforcement officers are relatively expensive, and fines were always a last resort at the end of a series of warnings."

This is as it should be well done, however it appears not to be the case with other boroughs. I could go on at length about some of the tricks that have been deployed by some councils but unfortunatly there are reasons that I'm sure you will realise as to why I will not.

"Sixth: halving the size of the bins was considered, but it was a more expensive solution (the best part of a million pounds in capital just to change all the bins) that delivered no significant benefits and would have precluded introducing the new plastics recycling system."

This is actually a reasonable view point when a system of council supplied wheelie bins is already in place.

However there are quite a few councils that I and others (speak to a few of your Lib Dem colleagues) are aware of that are only just getting around to supplying wheelie bins and most are doing it conjunction with a change from weekly to fortnightly collections. These bins appear to actually be bigger in many cases than those issued as little as five years ago, so the logic for them appears to be as I indicated.

"Seventh: the voters had the opportunity to vote out the ruling group following the introduction of the new system."

Oh dear this is the age old problem with a representational democracy. When you vote for a "monkey in a suit" you have to make a decission on many many many areas of policy they espouse. Claiming to be voted back in after the system was introduced with an increased majority is not indicative of people agreing or disagreing with any particular policy. Firstly only a vote on the issue it's self (real democracy) would determine if that, and if you have such proof I would be very interested to see it. Secondly and importantly the time period between full implementation of the policy and voting may have been (and probably was) sufficiently short that the disadvantages where not generaly apparent to the electorate, time as they say will tell...

"Part of the reason for this is that the new system was a success: the inevitable teething troubles were dealt with quickly"

This is as it should be with reasonable project goals and managment.

"the environmental benefits were soon realised"

Which where?

"and residents now seem broadly happy with the service."

Your point 5 of favoring carrot -v- stick (which is most definatly not the case for other councils) may well account for this. Also as well as the fact that quite a large part of Cambridge is urban or rural not pre 1930's high density inner city housing.

Again though one has to ask how has this "broadly happy" has actually been measured and at what point in time? there is amongst other things the well known "Honeymoon effect". And other effects as seen with crime and the introduction of CCTV.

I could go on at considerable length about this however you need to ask yourself how were your "environmental success criteria" selected and calculated. Few if any councils get the environmental impact assessment correct (this is mainly due to over simplistic regulatory compliance issues).

A simple example of this problem is "plastic shopping bags" all we usually hear is they are either non biodegradable or will take X (fill in your own guestimate) hundred years to break down in land fill.

However two things rarely make it into the calculations, firstly what do the bags (possibly) degrade to, and importantly what raw material are they made from.

The latter is of serious interest, as the bags are usually made from an oil industry waste product that has no other use than to be flared off at the well head. So actually sticking the bags in a hole in the ground is very possibly more environmentaly friendly...

Clive Robinson • November 10, 2008 11:53 AM

@ Jon Sowden,

"However, the evidence all points the other way."

You are correct but only up to a point. It is another case of "plastic shopping bag" syndrome.

Whilst household waste has gone up considerably in the past few years the size of the wheelie bin is "in response to" not "as a cause of" this.

If you look a little further at the increase in packaging materials on goods, the pre-wrapping of food, and the needless shortening of expire by dates, all have occured before an associated increase in household waste.

The solution to cutting house hold waste and improving it's environmental effects both of food and other items is to start from the point at which it is supplied (ie where it originates from).

Unfortunatly the persons responsable (the marketing and manufacturing concernces) are also some of the most powerfull lobbying interests on the planet.

If the politicians where to actually stand back from the issue and stop taking paid for junkets and other freebies off of the lobbying groups then rest of us would be better off.

To some extent the EU has started to wake up to this with RoHS / WEEE and other directives but a lot more needs to be done.

Unfortunatly it has to be done by the EU as the UK Gov pays at best lip service to EU waste directives when it comes to busniess and manufacturing intrests (look at UK SI's on WEEE and on things like batteries...) and makes little or no usefull legislation it's self.

However when the directives can be used to extract more money from the happless and defensless individual then bang you get some of the most draconian implementaitons of EU directives and legislation anywhere in Europe.

But hey that's all part and parcel of "New xxx" (select Labour or Conservative at your own choice as in this world of Purple Politics it makes little or no difference).

There appears to be a fundemental difference to the view of the environment between "us" in the UK and our nearest European neighbours, perhaps we should stop and think exactly why it is they call us "the dirty man of Europe" and blaim us for acid rain, Mad Cow and a whole host of other things?