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Schneier on SecurityA blog covering security and security technology. « Terrorist Attacks and Comparable Risks, Part 1 | Main | Externalities and Identity Theft » April 13, 2010Terrorist Attacks and Comparable Risks, Part 2John Adams argues that our irrationality about comparative risks depends on the type of risk: With "pure" voluntary risks, the risk itself, with its associated challenge and rush of adrenaline, is the reward. Most climbers on Mount Everest know that it is dangerous and willingly take the risk. With a voluntary, self-controlled, applied risk, such as driving, the reward is getting expeditiously from A to B. But the sense of control that drivers have over their fates appears to encourage a high level of tolerance of the risks involved. This isn't a new result, but it's vital to understand how people react to different risks. Posted on April 13, 2010 at 1:18 PM • 12 Comments To receive these entries once a month by e-mail, sign up for the Crypto-Gram Newsletter. @"In most countries in the world the number of deaths on the road far exceeds the numbers of murders, but far more people are sent to jail for murder than for causing death by dangerous driving." Seems that's how it should be. There is a huge difference between someone who murders another and one who takes someone's life in an accident (with varying degrees of culpability based on the level of negligence or carelessness or wrecklessness involved). Posted by: HJohn at April 13, 2010 1:59 PM Don't forget about the need to stop future events. I'm not sure exactly where this idea falls on the "rational" scale, but we cannot forget that in many of these classifications of risk, beyond our feeling of control over that risk, there is also the feeling of needing to prevent further occurrences. Although deaths from murder and rape occur less often than road deaths, it is viewed as easier to punish murder to prevent people from deciding murder is acceptable in the future (thus increasing its rate) than it is to prevent random car accidents. Terrorism also falls into this category. Because some of these attacks are so large, people feel that we need to react strongly, even though (statistically) our risk is small, b/c if we don't, then more will occur in the future, and all of a sudden the risk won't be small any more. But by then, it might be too late to effectively stop. Posted by: Nick at April 13, 2010 2:01 PM Bruce, Look at this video: Is not directly security related but does discuss people's acceptance of anecdotes about vaccinacions where evidence tells a different story. Interesting how humans are good at applying stupidity to everything. Posted by: James at April 13, 2010 2:27 PM I'm still not convinced that it makes sense to compare terrorist attacks to, say, cycling deaths. Cycling, driving, flying, etc. fatalities are all accidents. Even if the vehicle manufacturers and transit operators are willing to entertain "acceptable" risk limits, the purpose is to provide service, not danger. On the other hand, the terrorists' purpose is to kill/hurt/scare. Posted by: anon at April 13, 2010 3:00 PM James. But I think that's the point. The problem with articles like Adams's is that they skip over the really important thing. Namely, that we as human beings do a terrible job of understanding what risk actually is. Risk is not only absolute and relative; it's always and inherently comparative. People are not being stupid when they listen to stories; they are simply reducing the risk of looking stupid by being out of touch with their peers. Objective risk can't be dissociated from subjective values. Academics do it all the time but it's a fools errand. Telling the public that bicycling is less risky when it takes into account the health benefits from regular cycling is wasted breath on a populace that (a) doesn't like cycling and (b) isn't obsessed by longevity.
Posted by: Daniel at April 13, 2010 4:17 PM "Seems that's how it should be. There is a huge difference between someone who murders another and one who takes someone's life in an accident (with varying degrees of culpability based on the level of negligence or carelessness or wrecklessness involved). " if 2000 people are murdered and 2000 people die in car crashes then if we are punishing purely based on harm done then if the murderers spend 20,000 days in prison then the dangerous drivers should also be spending 20,000 days in prison (or equivalent). the problem is the people who are causing deaths from dangerous driving aren't getting equivalent punishment to murders because dangerous driving has a lower probability of causing death than murdering. this would be ok if we were also punishing people who were dangerous driving that weren't causing deaths enough to make up the difference. it is possible that fines+other punishments are already making up this difference but i'm not sure. also, there is the case that some 'dangerous driving' is actually an efficient breach and is socially optimal. by using punishments like prison we lower social utility. however, since most benefits of 'dangerous driving' accrue to the dangerous driver punishments like fines can push us towards the optimal level of 'dangerous driving'. Posted by: drscroogemcduck at April 14, 2010 5:53 AM cars and cyclist. it depends on how you drive. like an idiot, normal, or careful (on two, on four, or with no wheels). you are not the only one to make a failure. maybe you have the control over your vehicle, but the person in the slow car in front of you has problems with your speed or with his car. life is interaction. so you have to find a level to interact with people around you. Posted by: hwKeitel at April 14, 2010 9:18 AM i've a problem comparing (car) accidents with murder or terror. the first are accidents (besides suicides etc.) and the other not. in Germany there was a news about a guy having 1800 points in Flensburg. if you make i big driving mistake (driving drunk, speeding, etc.), you get a point in Flensburg, a fine, etc.. as soon as you have to many, they take your driving licence for a while (or you have to make the idiot test). i don't know exactly where the limit is (somthing around 15 points). this guy was driving without a driving licence (you get 6 points) and got caught 300 times! now he moves to prision. is the radio a believable source? Posted by: hwKeitel at April 14, 2010 9:47 AM @HJohn The reason we don't punish dangerous drivers is that we punish people in direct relation to how far they are from us. The same reasoning is behind the huge payouts awarded against large corporations and why minorities get convicted. Posted by: Nobody at April 14, 2010 4:56 PM I'm a climber, and I've taken a few rather high risks. One thing that once amazed me was that after I had climbed Norway's third highest mountain, a mountain of considerable difficulty, so that only good climbers go there, I was the only one who would use the seat belts on the bus home... I was the one who by most are thought to take silly risks, yet, I was the only one who would use a security measure that had near-zero costs... Posted by: Kjetil Kjernsmo at April 19, 2010 2:18 PM Subscribe to comments on this entry Post a comment
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