Bruce Schneier | |||||||||||
Schneier on SecurityA blog covering security and security technology. « Mossad Hacked Syrian Official's Computer | Main | Interview with Me » November 6, 2009The Doghouse: ADE 651A divining rod to find explosives in Iraq: ATSC’s promotional material claims that its device can find guns, ammunition, drugs, truffles, human bodies and even contraband ivory at distances up to a kilometer, underground, through walls, underwater or even from airplanes three miles high. The device works on “electrostatic magnetic ion attraction,” ATSC says. Complete quackery, sold by Cumberland Industries: Still, the Iraqi government has purchased more than 1,500 of the devices, known as the ADE 651, at costs from $16,500 to $60,000 each. Nearly every police checkpoint, and many Iraqi military checkpoints, have one of the devices, which are now normally used in place of physical inspections of vehicles. James Randi says: This Foundation will give you our million-dollar prize upon the successful testing of the ADE651® device. Such test can be performed by anyone, anywhere, under your conditions, by you or by any appointed person or persons, in direct satisfaction of any or all of the provisions laid out above by you. And he quotes from the Cumberland Industries literature (not online, unfortunately): Ignores All Known Concealment Methods. By programming the detection cards to specifically target a particular substance, (through the proprietary process of electro-static matching of the ionic charge and structure of the substance), the ADE651® will “by-pass” all known attempts to conceal the target substance. It has been shown to penetrate Lead, other metals, concrete, and other matter (including hiding in the body) used in attempts to block the attraction. One interesting point is that the effectiveness of this device depends strongly on what the bad guys think about its effectiveness. If the bad guys think it works, they have to find someone who is 1) willing to kill himself, and 2) rational enough to keep his cool while being tested by one of these things. I'll bet that the ADE651 makes it harder to recruit suicide bombers. But what happened to the days when you could buy a divining rod for $100? EDITED TO ADD (11/11): In case the company pulls the spec sheet, it's archived here. Posted on November 6, 2009 at 6:55 AM • 129 Comments To receive these entries once a month by e-mail, sign up for the Crypto-Gram Newsletter. Joshua • November 6, 2009 7:26 AM Seems like when people go looking for cheap and effective, they often forget the effective part. No doubt this device is much cheaper than maintaining a sufficient number of sniffing dogs. But there's the pesky little fact that sniffing dogs actually find bombs, while these can't except by pure luck. Mike W • November 6, 2009 7:30 AM According to this (http://www.prosec.com/docs/ADE651.pdf) it works up to 5000 meters on aircraft, and can detect everything from THC to people. lol what a joke It's all fun and games until someone loses a life ... plenty of blogs about this type of device, and this wonderful video of what I guess the manufacturers would call 'operator error' (warning, pretty graphic): http://video.mthai.com/player.php?... What a joke (except that it's not a funny joke) indeed *sigh* Arno • November 6, 2009 7:52 AM I wonder why these people do not go to prison for an extended time and have their ill-gotten gains conficscated and returned to the victims... sooth sayer • November 6, 2009 7:57 AM 2 Weeks ago on an International TV Channel I heard a Pakistani expert claiming that technology to detect a bomber (in a car) 300-400 meters away was cheaply available. He quoted a price of $15K - He also said that their government was buying it and was only concerned that they didn't have enough trained operators! Now I know what he was basing his expertise one! Your tax $'s at work -- BHO just signed a $7.5B Bill for Pakistan. Romeo Vitelli • November 6, 2009 8:07 AM "What happened to the days when you can buy a divining rod for $100?" Buy? The old-style diviners used to whittle the rods from wood that they took from the trees themselves. The idea that the wood was freshly-cut was supposed to have been part of what made dowsing work. AlanS • November 6, 2009 8:11 AM @Bruce "What happened to the days when you can buy a divining rod for $100?" You can make them yourself. My dad used to use two "L" shaped wire rods made from fencing wire when he was digging out drains. He was a complete skeptic when it came to religion and all sorts of quackery (which the ADE 651 clearly is). What I remember as a child watching him is that it seemed to work although I now read that experiments haven't shown much evidence for it. Anyway, I don't remember him digging out many holes and not finding a drain. Who knows how or why. Most of the people we knew who dowsed were farmers and others whose families had lived on the land for generations (this was in the UK). They were a very pragmatic lot. I guess the question is whether the rods were detecting water or just reflecting their own acute sense of judgment in such matters and local knowledge of where the drains would be located. Another Kevin • November 6, 2009 8:13 AM This device might not be effective at detecting explosives, but I cynically suspect that it's a Fourth Amendment defeating device. Have the divining rod alert the cop on the scene, and presto, he has probable cause to conduct an exigent search. It's like a bomb-and-drug-sniffing dog delivering a false alert, only without the dog. Any bets that the US judiciary is scientifically illiterate enough (or biased enough in favour of cops, however corrupt) to go for it? Mailman • November 6, 2009 8:22 AM This scam reminds me of the "sniffing planes" political scandal that happened in France in the early 1980s. TFBW • November 6, 2009 8:26 AM "What happened to the days when you can buy a divining rod for $100?" Bear in mind that these are _military grade_ divining rods which detect _any substance_. You pay a premium for that. Clive Robinson • November 6, 2009 8:30 AM @ AlanS, "I guess the question is whether the rods were detecting water or just reflecting their own acute sense of judgment in such matters and local knowledge of where the drains would be located." It's the latter. You could regard them as being "gut feeling" magnifiers. The way you are supposed to use them makes them fairly sensitive to small shoulder muscle movments. The thing about "looking across the tips" is a way to make your brain's sub concious free ascociate on the info coming in from your eyes, whilst occupying the concious mind with an unrelated task. So the devices would possibly work as a "sensing hinky" amplifier as well. But they cannot actually detect a thing, they only alow you to get at your subconcious thinking. fraudbuster • November 6, 2009 8:50 AM Here is Cumberland's write up. They'll pull it down soon, I'm sure. http://www.cumberlandindustries.com/content/... Darkness gathers. The demons begin to stir. shadowfirebird • November 6, 2009 8:53 AM You would think that the "international community" (whatever that is) would demand that each country vet their security companies for just such a scam and punish the wrongdoers -- given that security products are usually life-threatening if they go wrong, and "caveat emptor" vary rarely helps the victim in these cases. It seems to me that there is no downside to this, nothing that a given country would have to lose. So much for sanity. db Cooper • November 6, 2009 8:57 AM Why would the company take up James Randi on his offer of a $1M prize? The reporting says they have already made over $85M in sales. First I miss out on inventing pet rocks, now this. spaceman spiff • November 6, 2009 9:02 AM I think someone is laughing all the way to the bank. With luck, they'll get blown up by a suicide bomber because of their perfidy... Vincent • November 6, 2009 9:06 AM This reflects a cultural aversion to dogs as much as anything. It's just as expensive and not remotely as effective, but at least you can find people willing to use the thing and actually sit to be searched. I've been putting a bunch of money into drug sniffing snake research... sooner or later that big oil state Iraqi defense contract is going to come my way. nick • November 6, 2009 9:17 AM @alanS: "I guess the question is whether the rods were detecting water or just reflecting their own acute sense of judgment in such matters and local knowledge of where the drains would be located." Actually, that's not the question. There isn't really a question there at all. The obvious fact is that divining rods really work thanks to having 48% more magic than regular rods. PS: Your dad was deluded. yet_another_coward • November 6, 2009 9:19 AM > It comes with a hardware three year warranty. So... how do you tell if it requires maintenance or replacement under the warranty? Grande Mocha • November 6, 2009 9:37 AM I grew up on a small family farm. I remember being amazed when I watched my grandfather use a dowsing rod to locate a site for a new well. They drilled and found water just like he had predicted. When I got older, and learned about aquifers, I realized that they could have drilled anywhere in the vicinity and found water. Maybe when you live in a war ravaged country, you can search any random person and have good odds of finding some sort of contraband... nick • November 6, 2009 9:48 AM Remember not to be overly hard on the Iraqi government without also saving some criticism for the West. Some US police forces use lie detectors of various varieties, which are just divining rods at worst, or anxiety tests at best. The French even use handwriting analysts to screen job applicants. How insane is that? pegr • November 6, 2009 9:50 AM It's just as effective as the polygraph, and for the same reasons, too! Xyz • November 6, 2009 10:38 AM I would like to sell them some of these metal detectors: http://www.fisher-price.com/us/products/... Ed Hurst • November 6, 2009 10:45 AM Please don't confuse all this hokum with the detection of very real magnetic fields generated by buried pipes and cables made from various metals. Depending on the type of detection you use, they can be sensed at surprising depths using fairly inexpensive equipment. Dom De Vitto • November 6, 2009 10:47 AM Bruce, Next thing you'll be telling me that my ADE650 (which is fantastic and keeps crocodiles from approaching up to a mile from my house) doesn't work either !!! Dom De Vitto kog999 • November 6, 2009 11:07 AM this reminds me of a simpsons quote Homer: Not a bear in sight. The Bear Patrol must be working like a charm! Lisa: That’s specious reasoning, Dad. Homer: Why thank you, honey. Emiliano Zapata • November 6, 2009 11:13 AM Hi, the army in Mexico has some of this kind of devices, in some towns in the southern part of Mexico this has detectec ammunitions and weapons, the person walks in the street with the device, and this thing alerts when there is a house or place with traces of explosive substances. Some times it can detect non-hazardous materials, as this has erroneous detected explosives in a dairy products transport truck that was confiscated by error. Leo Tohill • November 6, 2009 11:23 AM We'll probably find that the company is owned by the people who are placing the orders, billing their government. How else could you sell a $16,000 divining rod? A Nony Mouse • November 6, 2009 11:53 AM I think Another Kevin has hit the nail on the head. The device is a "scientific" excuse to conduct searchs where they wouldn't otherwise have cause. TimH • November 6, 2009 12:03 PM I think its also targetting LA police and African regimes for customers. At least it says it will detect "Black Power" in the 2-page brochure http://www.prosec.com/docs/ADE651.pdf referred to mt Mike. Magnus Redin • November 6, 2009 12:06 PM Why do people living in a country that believe in lie detectors laugh about an electrostatic divining rod? BF Skinner • November 6, 2009 12:06 PM Of course this is the kind of thing that govt can controll (where they ARE our tax dollars) by putting a clause stating no monies will be used to buy the ADE...of course as soon as you do this the free market freebooters begin beating their chests about unfair constraints. The market only delivers what the people want right? People WANT shoddy merchandise sold by unethical firms. TimH • November 6, 2009 12:08 PM Another thought: If an LEO used this to work around warrantless search to fake probable cause, the LEO had better be prepared to plant the evidence too. If speed detectors can be challenged for accuracy, the PC detector can be challenged too. Love to see it proved working in court! Lars Vargas • November 6, 2009 12:10 PM One has to wonder how they managed to design 650 BAD iterations of this wodnerful product. At least the 651 is good for one thing. Reading about it caused my bullsh!t detector to go off. Which begs the question, if you're searching for bullsh!t, will the ADE 651 find itself? Kevin G. Austin • November 6, 2009 12:18 PM I don't know what your problem with this is. It almost certainly uses the same technology that the Acme Homing Missile does. It probably even has a large dial on it with settings like "rabbit" and "roadrunner". EdT. • November 6, 2009 1:06 PM I wonder if they have been selling a similar device to LE agencies in Louisiana and east Texas for use in locating "drug money" in the cars of African-Americans. ~EdT. D0R • November 6, 2009 1:24 PM "Proponents of the wand often argue that errors stem from the human operator, who they say must be rested, with a steady pulse and body temperature, before using the device." That's exactly what people with self-proclaimed ESP powers say when they fail. They say they failed due to "wrong mind waves" from skeptic observers, or whatever. Shane • November 6, 2009 1:43 PM Well, I know *my* ESP works much better when everyone in the vicinity already believes it does... *explodes* bob • November 6, 2009 2:25 PM Reminds me of the WOM (Write Only Memory) we had waaaaay back. Huge quantity of storage, it could store >1GB back when 4kB was alot. Of course, it was just a block of wood with 2 wires attached, and since it was WRITE only there was no way read anything back to prove it was or was not storing anything... db Cooper • November 6, 2009 3:17 PM I also remember WOM chips from back in the 70's. The ones I designed with were not a block of wood though, they were a DIP and we sourced them from Signetics. Ye ol' data sheet can be found here: http://www.national.com/rap/files/datasheet.pdf Arno • November 6, 2009 3:36 PM @db Cooper: Very nice! I especially like to all-too-realistic plot on "ramaining pins vs. number of insertions". David • November 6, 2009 4:01 PM @TimH: I'm not a lawyer, but there's a difference between evidence sufficient to convict and evidence sufficient to conduct a search. Under some circumstances, a LEO can conduct a search given reasonable suspicion and articulable cause. "My drug detector went off" is an articulate statement, and grounds for suspicion. The fact that it's functionally equivalent to a used paper towel may or may not be relevant. This is in contrast to the speed detector, which provides direct evidence of an illegal act, and which will be used in court. The results of the detector placebo won't be brought up by the prosecution. Its reliability would be brought up by the defense, arguing that the search was illegal, so any evidence gained from it is "fruit of the poisoned tree". So, the question is whether a LEO is justified in searching based on entirely unreliable evidence. There may be laws or precedents dealing with this anyway, but as I said I'm not a lawyer and I don't know. Anonymous coward • November 6, 2009 4:09 PM I'd love to see the owner of the company manufacturing that product personally clean out a minefield. Clive Robinson • November 6, 2009 4:52 PM @ nick, "The obvious fact is that divining rods really work thanks to having 48% more magic than regular rods." It has been shown that some farmers can tell were things are buried several feet or more under their fields just by looking at the way the crops grow above them. When the same fields are looked at using photos taken from an aircraft it is usually apparent to most peoples eyes. Put simply the crop grows differently to that in other areas, and although the difference is not that noticable at ground level to an inexperianced eye a more experianced eye will spot the difference. Likewise leaking pipes and broken drains can be spotted simply by the difference in a crop, as can sub surface natural drainage. Some metal ores can be found by simple chemical analysis of plants that grow above depositis and in the case of some metals this produces differences in the foliage that can be detected. Some native people can just look at what appears to be arid land and spot small differences that tell them where there are pockets of water often upto 6 feet under the surface. There is no magic involved just a life time of experiance. Mauro S • November 6, 2009 5:38 PM Let me make a correction to the text above. This is not “a useless, quack, device which cannot perform any other function than separating naïve persons from their money”. Nothing could be further from the truth. The device was carefully crafted so as to separate one’s *government* from its money, with benefit not only for the seller but to the not so naïve person doing the buying as well. As such, it’s not all that different the useless puffers that TSA bought (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=7649241) or even the financial “rescues” of recent times. Of course, Iraq is a war torn country and now the scams there are not as subtle and sophisticated as the ones in more advanced countries. Asking the Iraq people to come up with sophisticated cons at this time in history is really not fair. Preston L. Bannister • November 6, 2009 7:51 PM My son (an MP in the Marines) was part of a public-service operation on Halloween, using a wand to screen for metal in bags of candy. Not a bad idea (putting aside whether this is systematically effective), except for the constant false positives. Seems there is a surprising amount of metal in the air. jack • November 6, 2009 11:23 PM Money aside, I'm sure the makers of the device are rolling on the floor laughing when they think of the users "walking in place" to charge the device. It's just too precious. It's actually better than watching Bill Murray in "Stripes". Shachar Shemesh • November 7, 2009 12:47 AM I object to comparing this to lie detectors. Don't get me wrong. Lie detectors are a useless piece of crap as far as detecting spies/thieves etc. Their false positive rate, in combination with the low density of actual thieves and spies, means that even at the 90% accuracy that the Polygraph association claims the devices are all but useless. Worse, 90% is a huge over-statement of the actual device's accuracy. BUT It does measure something. Even at 51% accuracy, one can think of some (hypothetical, useless) cases where it would come in useful (for some definition of "useful"). The polygraph's accuracy is, probably, much higher than that (at a guess, I'll put it at 60%-65%). The ADE 651 is totally useless, with no better than chance accuracy. Don't confuse polygraph (bad science coupled with marketing) with the ADE 651 (simple fraud). Shachar PackagedBlue • November 7, 2009 5:32 AM A rod that cuts through the USA-Iraq governments red tape, and saves lives by solving people process problems? Paying off the right people for access to info and help is the system, it just often is masked by flaky stuff. Maybe not a bad payoff device. vanilla • November 7, 2009 7:37 AM There are so many possibilities here. 1. Practical application of Thieves' Belief System Tenet #2: "If you were stupid enough to believe me, you deserve what you got." 2. If the buyer is truly naive, see #1. 3. If the buyer is in on it: a) quid pro quo; b) money laundering; c) gaming strategy. If 3(c), be on the look out for the owner of the problem to ride in with the solution. Every human is infected with some level / form of moral corruption but cheats and thieves make me sick. Book 'em, Danno ... Kelvin Washington • November 7, 2009 12:27 PM In case the company gets embarrassed and pulls the spec sheet, it's cached at http://www.webcitation.org/5l74dFZBl Lollardfish • November 7, 2009 3:25 PM This segment should be called "Snake Oil," rather than "The Doghouse." Charles • November 7, 2009 9:11 PM Indeed dog houses are usually reserved for much more sophisticated and reliable detection systems. NobodySpecal • November 8, 2009 3:02 PM It's a great British Traditional industry. For many years they had detector vans - black vans with scary looking antennae that could detect your unlicensed TV. Everybody who knew anything about RF knew that these contained an intern to rotate the antennae and his sandwiches, but people were convinced and paid for their license. Clive Robinson • November 8, 2009 7:10 PM @ NobodySpecal, "In the UK you have to pay a tax ($200/year) for your TV to pay for the BBC." Err it might be nearer $150 now whereas it was nearer $300 last year. Such is the down turn in the value of the GB pound (£). Oh and with regards too, "Everybody who knew anything about RF knew that these contained an intern to rotate the antennae and his sandwiches" Originaly the detector vans (actualy run by the Post Office on behalf of the Post Master General) could and did detect televisions. Those large black antennas where actually used to detect radiation from the LOPT driver valve. The same valve used to be used by amature radio operators to get between 50-150 watts in the HF bands befor the KT66 (audio amp) or 807 (driver for 813) valves became more widely available. As the interferance problems caused by early valve TV'S became unacceptable due to more use of broadcast radio the manufactures took a little more care to stop the LF signal being radiated from the VHF (Band I & III 405 line BW in those days) antenna coax outer. The Post Office then had to redesign their kit and started to pick up the local oscilator signal from the VHF/UHF tunner as the country moved over to 625 line PAL Colour. Or a multiple of the TV IF signal which could easily be picked up at the bottom end of Band II (88-108MHz). In the 1970's I used to do just that myself with a portable VHF radio to find out what the neighbours where watching. Again interferance problems forced the TV set manufactures to clean up their act which co-incided with the first transistor UHF tunners, which did not need high level local oscilators to drive the mixer and also used a higher IF frequency so further reducing the LO radiation. After the detection of licence fee avoiders effectivly became "privatised" (one of the "Milk Snatchers" ideas in the 1980's) it was discovered that a small portable battery television and an ear to the house letter box worked better than the "detector vans" ever had at catching people. Today the process is to send out "scary letters" to people without licences as sending "expensive" minimum wage manpower around to addressess without licences is just not cost effective. However they are sent to addressess where the licence has stopped being paid. Or that are known to have bought Tv's from ordinary retailers or repairers (they had a legal duty to inform the post office of all sales of TVs, but only had to pay 5 GBP for a five year "retail licence" ;). Apparently the best way to deal with these minimum wage "snoopers" if they knocked on your door and you made the mistake of answering was to have "religious mania" and scream such things as "Television is the work of the Devil" and "All worshipers of Satan should be burned at the stake" and "The demon preists working for Satan should be eviserated" whilst waving your arms around and with a wild eyed look was guarented to get the off the property fairly sharpish, and filling their paper work in as "no receiver on premises". I've been told by somebody who worked for the licence fee agency that most people who get caught deliberatly not paying it are usually quite stupid (ie have the TV visable from the front of the property, have it on so loud it can be heard at the front door, and answer the door to compleate strangers...). Jay • November 8, 2009 7:54 PM @NobodySpecal: You never heard of radar detectors, or IF leakage? Or TEMPEST, even - detecting the TV scan frequency would be enough; you wouldn't have to prove they were watching broadcast TV before making nasty accusations... NobodySpecial • November 8, 2009 8:09 PM Yes in theory you could detect RF leakage from a heterodyne tuner in an old TV - although good luck picking up a digital-tv card inside a laptop with an LCD from a street away. The point is that the detector vans have been fake for at least 20years (pretty much since the GPO/BT split) the bomb detector is just continuing this technology. McCoy Pauley • November 8, 2009 8:51 PM I'm detecting a LOT of leakage here. Mostly from between the ears. AlanS • November 9, 2009 8:48 AM @Clive Robinson "There is no magic involved just a life time of experience." Agreed. But local knowledge and experience of this sort are often dismissed. It reminds me of a wonderful essay by Brian Wynne on government scientists and sheep farmers at odds over the source of nuclear fallout in Cumberland, England (see first chapter in "Misunderstanding science?: the public reconstruction of science and technology" Cambridge UP, 1996.). Which brings us back to $16K security gizmos. Even if such gizmos do what their makers claim, so what? They are selling you a mindless substitute for experience and the ability to make good judgments and there is no substitute.
False Data • November 9, 2009 11:38 AM "But what happened to the days when you could buy a divining rod for $100?" Best guess is they fell victim to the heuristic that estimates the quality of the acquisition by what the acquirer sacrificed to obtain it. antibozo • November 9, 2009 6:37 PM Wasn't this same device (marketed under the name "Sniffex") previously covered here: tOM Trottier • November 11, 2009 5:01 PM re:You can make them yourself. My dad used to use two "L" shaped wire rods made from fencing wire when he was digging out drains. He was a complete skeptic when it came to religion and all sorts of quackery (which the ADE 651 clearly is). What I remember as a child watching him is that it seemed to work although I now read that experiments haven't shown much evidence for it. Anyway, I don't remember him digging out many holes and not finding a drain. Who knows how or why. Most of the people we knew who dowsed were farmers and others whose families had lived on the land for generations (this was in the UK). They were a very pragmatic lot. I guess the question is whether the rods were detecting water or just reflecting their own acute sense of judgment in such matters and local knowledge of where the drains would be located. -Posted by: AlanS at November 6, 2009 8:11 AM Astounding Science Fact and Fiction magazine (now Analog) published an article in the 50s about this, and did some tests. I used it as the basis for a highschool science project, using two coathangar wires bent in an L held loosely in two thin hard plastic tubes. The article indicated they were useful in detecting wires and pipes, with a certain degree of skepticism. You held them in front of you and the wires would line up, both pointing outwards, when walking over pipes or wires. While I did not confirm underlying pipes or wires, they did seem to line up consistently at the same places when I walked with them, indoors or out. I did not win a prize. tOM jasmine • November 15, 2009 10:43 AM The following document has been written in an attempt to avert a number of controversial papers and unwarranted advice over ‘warnings not to buy “Bogus” detection equipment.’ Although I would agree that in principal, advice of this nature should be given, I do disagree by which the methods used to discourage potential users in the effectiveness of ‘alternative’ methods of detection.
Clive Robinson • November 15, 2009 2:44 PM @ Bruce, The above posting by "jasmine" alluds to be scientific but is nothing more than mumbo jumbo as far as I can tell (I could be wrong but...). And no I would not object in any way to you removing both jasmine's post and my post about it. @ jasmine, I have never heard of anyone in a technical or scientific field use expressions such as "pure volts", "electrostatic magnetism". Would you care to define them in some way? And to make the following statment shows a compleat lack of understanding of physics, "On average, each of us produces approximately 2000 ~ 3000+ volts…….there is no (or very little) amperage, but pure volts." A voltage or Electro Motive Force (EMF A.K.A "a Potential Difference or PD) is as the name suggests a force. The current or amperage is a flow of charge (coulombs/sec). The rate of flow is usualy moderated by "resistance" and there is a formula often called "Ohms Law" to give the steddy state current I = V / R. Thus if the resistance is infinite then the charge does not flow, if the resistance is zero the current is by the formula infinite irrespective of the EMF providing it is not zero (in theory and practice there are other limitations such as the speed of light which all forces are constrained by). Now for a classic bit of "arm waving" rhetoric, "However, depending on our state of mind, our anxiety, our levels of testosterone, our wellbeing, etc; the amount of voltage we can produce can raise and in some instances, exceed over 20,000 or 30,000 volts!" You forgot to mention the effects of which direction the wind is blowing (which can effect static build up). I would be interested if anyone can cite a peer reviewed publication of a link between static electricity and testosterone? Further this delightfull little snippet from your section 11, "It is reckoned that substances such as Narcotics or Explosives, ‘emit’ a radio-wave-signal in the frequency band 1~8 Hertz and it is this ELF that makes the basis of our product being able to detect these very low frequencies." All substances do emit EM radiation (heat) but to make a claim that "Narcotics or Explosives, ‘emit’" "1~8 Hertz" is at best a little fancifull (compare the size of a chemical molecule to the wavelength...). And where would the cohearant energy source to power such radiation come from? Just for fun lets explore your notion that an individual chemical molecule could radiate ELF using some unknown everlasting internal energy source, What about all the molecules around it emitting their own ELF signals? Well without a method for the molecules to oscillate synchronously they would all add together incoherantly and the output would be indestinquishable from thermal noise (or as once put "The square root of bugger all")... So by what method do they become syncronised to be able to emit coherant radiation at ELF? Also having worked with ELF for secure communications systems I'm well aware of the limitations of any kind of detector in this and lower frequency bands, and belive me a short metal rod (say a foot) is not going to be efficient in any way. "jasmine" as you so nicely puts it, "Now this is hardly ‘rocket-science’ but it is an import part of the principal behind which the equipments, ... do function." Shortly after saying, "Well Sandia [National Labs], you may have a valid point but, let me try to explain, (in my limited experience)" Jasmine a little chalenge for you, cite peer reviewed articals from reputable journals for you notions (and no patents / applications are not reputable). Oh and also how about your qualifications to make your statments (as would be required by a judge of any supposed "expert witness"). M Yasin • November 16, 2009 3:22 AM
sam • November 16, 2009 4:01 AM Let me start by this ihave used the ADE 651 over and over again and it work Waddah • November 16, 2009 4:04 AM I have use the ADE 651 is sudia Arabia User • November 16, 2009 4:08 AM This article will aim to provide a satisfied customer’s point of view on ATSC’s ADE651, and also gives the other side to the argument from the current one sided blogs and disussion forums on the internet. Many people will ask why i bothered myself to write such an article? Being head of security for a large organisation in Spain and after these so called anti skeptic websites were brought to my attention by a colleague and after reading quite a few articles, i noticed that these people were making quite childish and unfounded accusations about the product and its manufacturer without ever having used the product. This article aims to set the record straight from a customers point of view, who is neutral, but found that all current websites on the subject of the ADE 651 to be biased, one sided and frankly quite aggressive. Before even buying an ADE651 unit you are provided with a full demonstration under which you would set the conditions for the test. Certain people however, seem to believe that governments and large organizations such as the one I work for would actually go ahead and purchase such a piece of equipment without strenuously testing and re-testing the unit under their terms and conditions. This of course does not happen. If an end user such as myself would not be happy with the results why would people go ahead and purchase it. I do not claim to know the scientific reasoning behind the product and as the end user I frankly don’t care. All that matters to me is that the product actually works and that me and my team are currently using the ADE651 and every time we have demonstrated or tested the products it has worked. I have a staff of about 40 security officers working for me and every month or so I do so called spot checks and when used properly the device has never failed me. This is why I really am finding it difficult to understand why people who have never used the device will be so against it. I am one of many customers, of whom most I have spoken to who have been amazed and astounded at the accuracy and effectiveness of the ADE651 when its being used by well trained staff. Paul • November 16, 2009 4:16 AM The only thing i can understand from this blog, is that Only the American technologies work and any thing else does not.......... ahmed • November 16, 2009 4:54 AM why the blog is taking one side and the side of the people who never tested the device sameer • November 16, 2009 5:35 AM If the end user is satified with the result of the equipment why all this noise..... mohammed • November 16, 2009 5:38 AM let me ask one question? Ahmed • November 16, 2009 5:41 AM I don't understand the blog mohammed • November 16, 2009 5:45 AM ADE 651, at costs from $16,500 to $60,000 each Where did you get this price? salem • November 16, 2009 5:55 AM To date, there are over 5000 ADE’s world-wide and although it is not the answer to everyone’s requirements, it does fit into the current market we pose today. Used correctly, it will effectively prove a valuable, first-line, detection tool. saleem • November 16, 2009 7:19 AM Iraq (Baghdad): 80 units of ADE651™ were sold to the Iraqi Ministry of Interior. To face regional problems the Ministry of Interior in Kurdistan (North of Iraq) is today equiped with ADE651™. Jordania (Aman): the terrorists' wave which directly attacked international hotels gave increase importance to detect explosives and firearms. After a long time searching and testing solutions to avoid similar problems, the King only allowed Hotels equipped with (and only a genuine) ADE651™ detectors, to use their underground parking again. It appears in this case that ADE651™ grew as a national guaranty of security and safety Ahmed/Sameer/Mohammed/Saleem: limit yourself to a single identity when posting to this blog from now on. Changing names to create the impression that you have a crowd of supporters is a cheap trick, and you're not doing it convincingly anyway. Techowiz • November 16, 2009 1:14 PM Well spotted MOD. They tried it on the Ministry of Truth blog as well, see the below link: Thanks for the link. Our logs show that at least 3 computers are involved: User (in Spain), Paul, and Sami are one, M Yasin in Cairo is another, and most if not all of the rest are the same computer. All come from the same IP address in Jordan. I'm not surprised that people would resort to sockpuppetry to defend this product, but I am a bit surprised that they're doing it so ineptly. Nobody could be convinced by this. Clive Robinson • November 16, 2009 3:43 PM @ Moderator, "I am a bit surprised that they're doing it so ineptly." Probably from their view point "any port in a storm" when "you are trying to defend the indefensable". Or more aptly "a drowning man will clutch any straw", I hope they sink without trace... However I suspect they will crawl under a rock somewhere and wait untill the sun shines on them again and they will slither out on the make. A thought occures perhaps the IP addresses corespond to "sales agents" in those geo areas. I just hope that nobody is hurt or killed due to the use of this device. I just cannot see how they can not be guilty of taking money under false representation. Techowiz • November 16, 2009 3:58 PM Hi MOD, Gets even better, poster (User) above could he/she be the same person/s as, people who have posted as John and then Frank as heads of security companies in France and Dubai, check out the following and play spot the difference: http://www.ministryoftruth.me.uk/2009/11/05/... http://www.armybase.us/2009/11/... regards Clive, They're all at the same IP address in Jordan. Spain and Egypt are just where they're claiming to be. The odd one out is Jasmine, who comes from a different IP address in Jordan, but entered a fake e-mail address that's only one character different from User's fake e-mail address. Techowiz • November 19, 2009 11:27 AM Jasmine is in effect Jim McCormick the actual maker and seller of these frauds. Bruce Hood • November 24, 2009 11:23 AM I have M Yasin commenting on my blog with exactly the same bogus comment emailing from ... you guessed it Jordan... Heh maybe we should bombard his email myasin050@gmail.com Bruce... can you use your connections to get these guys closed down? Techowiz • November 30, 2009 8:51 AM Ok for all you doubters, The ADE651 is going to change to keep you all happy and convince you it works, it is now going to be fitted with 'flashing lights'. Yes you read that right flashing lights, read the story below: Techowiz • December 2, 2009 5:09 PM McCormick (ATSC ADE651) has invited Bruce Hood to a demonstration, Should be interesting. "Buy" a divining rod? Why? A guy I used to work with used a pair of welding rods from our kit, with the bare ends bent in an "L". I would have liked to see a formal test, since he seemed to be able to repeatedly find voids in the ground (we were installing city water lines). Never took it very serioiusly, but it seemed to work better than random chance (or the ADE651). Techowiz • December 9, 2009 9:34 AM I see the ADE651 fails AGAIN in the latest series of explosions to roick Baghdad. An EOD gremlin • December 16, 2009 8:17 AM Just spotted what looks like another incarnation of this device appearing in the recent issue of (respected?) defence trade magazine 'Defence & Security Systems International' (www.defence-and-security.com). The article can be seen at Techowiz • December 20, 2009 11:35 AM Well spotted EOD Gremlin, These are the clowns that originally marketed the scam device know as, 'sniffex plus', that has been ridiculed. Xue • January 8, 2010 5:51 AM Hi, All coments on 6th of November it-'s incredible . How much money do they pay you to post so many times in the smae day . You are the most corrupt i see. Kr, Techowiz • January 19, 2010 2:47 PM XUE, Don't you mean the comments posted on the 16th alleging to be multiple supporters, but found to be all form the same ip address? Techowiz • January 22, 2010 10:56 AM GREAT NEWS, the scammer-in-chief of the ADE651 has been arrested for the fraud that is the ADE651, see the link for the story; http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/... regards phil • January 22, 2010 4:45 PM interesting argument, and the ppl on both sides are very sure of the rightness of their point of view. In about 1973 I helped a subcontractor lay a mile long water main down the side of a wood to a remote farm. The farmer thought there was a stoptap somewhere in a stackyard covered in mud and crushed chalk, but had no idea where it was. When it came to finding it, the guy driving the trenching machine went to a hedge and came back with two peices of rusty fence wire and proceeded to form a couple of L shapes, and began dowsing. I was fascinated, He did it every day. He found the stoptap in the third hole. 1and 2 were a clay land drain and a pipe going to a long forgotten field tank. I questioned him, it's easy, he replied,most people can do it, bit of practice, and he showed me. You hold a clear picture in your mind of what you want to find, and when the wands cross, you have found..... something. I have found sewers, long lost wells buried cables etc etc, very often in places where the local worthies, who were around when they were buried insisted they werent! In short, it is no good looking for mysterious emmations from cables, pipes and the like, and equally it is no use to attach a pair of rods to a robot and expect a result. the sensing device is the human being holding the rods, the rods are merely the indicators, like the needle on a voltmeter. From that analogy you could guess that I am an electrical engineer by training, and I dont take no bullsh*t or no prisoners. As for James Randi, go to his website and read the rules to his million dollar offer. You will then realise what an empty promise it really is. He has made absolutely sure his money is safe. All I can say is that for me, most of the time, it works, and when its the only tool you got (and we note that all these supposed technophiles are not coming up with an alternative solution) it is a lot better than nothing. If all the dowsing detectors in the world only ever detected one bomb, it is one more than the competion! phil • January 22, 2010 5:06 PM Forgot to mention one of the best references. During the Vietnam war dowsing equipment was used to detect undergound tunnels and hideouts used by the vietcong. The guys were trained in America at a specially prepared training area and those who showed exceptional aptitude were badged as engineer dowsers (if I remember correctly) Google it!!! also check out De Re Mettallica, a manuscript from 1430 by the minerologist Agricola, which details how minerals and ore deposits can be found by dowsing. would it really still be in use nearly 600 years later if it didn't work? I doubt it. Techowiz • January 22, 2010 5:48 PM Phil, Can you point me in the direction of any credible scientific tests that support your statement that dowsing works, apart from your own experience? Werner • January 23, 2010 7:52 PM @phil: "we note that all these supposed technophiles are not coming up with an alternative solution" Some of them are. E.g., google for "Bosch wall scanner". No too long ago, everybody you'd ask would have happily agreed that anyone having the kind of insights this sort of device conveys must be in league with satan and ought to be burnt at the earliest convenience. I wouldn't dismiss divining rods either. The human body is still full of surprises, and the example above shows that there are a lot of subtle clues to pick up. However, I would put a strong emphasis on whether the tool in question can actually produce a result under real-life conditions. If it works great for one properly trained shaman but for nobody else you can find or hire, then there's little point for you to equip all your security staff with it. - Werner sniper • January 24, 2010 3:04 AM
Alex • January 24, 2010 9:26 AM These appear to be common L-shaped dowsing rods, as portrayed in It is really funny: just offer a "high-tech version", add some pseudo-scientific mumbojumbo and -most of all- a "reset button"(!) and you have a bona fide hightech bomb detector. If I were the manufacturer, I'd offer a PRO version with USB connector and a CD-based explosives database which gets updated on a subscription base. This might look like this litle most efficient program: :-)) Clive Robinson • January 24, 2010 10:22 AM @ Werner, "I wouldn't dismiss divining rods either. The human body is still full of surprises, and the example above shows that there are a lot of subtle clues to pick up." Yes it does offer better than tossing a coin for certain things (as tests have shown). However it is also a "pup" in that it does not work for most other things. It's like a number of bio-metric feedback systems. The best explanation I have seen is it occupies the concious mind whilst the subconcious pattern recognition/matching part gets to work. For instance a farmer can use it to find objects like pipes etc buried under a field with the same corelation as photographing the area from a thousand feet up and looking for crop markings. The argument appears to be that the subconcious mind sees differences in crop height colour etc etc and puts the match together. The concious mind however does not see the subtal patterns. So far nobody who has carried out limited investigation has put pen to paper for many reasons. However it is clear that people do learn to "dows" for certain things so there definatly appears to be a learning/training element in it. However I would not use it as a "Hinky" detector in the hands of people who don't even know what hinky is. It would be interesting to see the results of more "scientific studies" even if they say no the effect was not seen in a random group etc. phil • January 24, 2010 12:46 PM OK, techowiz, as far as I know the only Techowiz • January 24, 2010 1:30 PM Phil, On a BBC programme on Friday 22nd January an investigative reporter had a computer laboratory take apart one of the detection cards, that the 'inventor' Jim McCormick said was the key to the whole device detecting various explosive and drugs. After opening the card do you know what electrical circuit they found? http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00q9hx6/... regards Alex • January 24, 2010 1:45 PM @clive robinson: There have quite a number of well-documented investigations in Germany. All turned out disastrous for the dowsers ... @phil: Sorry the tests are documented in German language only ... here's one link to the GWUP society's test: phil • January 24, 2010 2:34 PM techowiz, you make a basic error, I was defending dowsing, NOT the ADE651. If the question is "can you detect bombs by dowsing"? my answer would be "sometimes yes, depending on how well practiced a dowser you are" Clive Robinson • January 25, 2010 5:29 AM @ Alex, "There have quite a number of well-documented investigations in Germany. All turned out disastrous for the dowsers ..." I'm curious what type of tests where they? I know of one test where dowsers produced way way off the bell curve norm results (the wrong way for them). Where as the control group initialy showed what you would expect then started to move marginaly towards the working side. What was not explained was why the dowsers where so far away from the norm (all be it in totaly the wrong direction). One explination was "learning a new environmet". I also know of several other tests where the dowsers produced repeatable "home" and "away" results that again sugests it's a "local knowledge" issue. However all that being said the results have always been marginal with the occasional outliers well within the usual variance. Which gives rise to the questions, 1, Do we know what we are testing. And "people" is one of the problems. For instance there are quite a few examples of "folk knowledge" that science has dismissed only to come back to at a later stage (a large chunk of modern medicine comes from Hedge Medicine etc. The clasic example being stomach ulcers, and the view that "bacteria cannot live in the stomach". Oh by the way I'm neither pro nor anti on dowsing, in the same way I'm not pro or anti "gut feelings". All I will say on the later they make me more cautious or more ambitious and oddly in neither case have they been missplaced. An example being when I was chatting to a friend on the phone about his cottage and how dowing up the kitchen had shown evidence of "death watch beetle". I jokingly sugest he ought to microwave the wooden beams as dry wood is fairly transparent to microwaves whilst grubs are nice and juciy and broil easily. No sooner had I said it than I got a gut reaction also my friend got the same feeling. After another few minutes discussing it we rang off I did some experiments with mince meat and some 2x1 I had around and got very very positive results. The following morning my friend phoned to say he'd done a search on an IP DB or two and unfortunatly there was a company in the US that had had the same idea only recently. Like all good ideas it is obvious with hindsight but the physical "gut reaction" came before the brain had thought it through... So yes I'm with the "lets investigate some more" camp... Provided we can work out "what it actualy is we are investigating"... (which currently appears to be in the "we've not got a clue" area). Mind you there was that other group that found that there where very real reasons for Curry and Larger to be consumed together (hey I might be interested in a repeat of that one 8) Techowiz • January 26, 2010 3:21 AM Phil, You make a basic error, I know that the ADE651 is not a functioning electronic instrument. My arugument all along is that it cannot detect anything, let alone explosives using the dowsing system. phil • January 28, 2010 5:40 AM well Techowiz, It appears to me that the ADE651 is indeed a type of grossly overpriced dowsing device, and I know from repeated personal experience that dowsing can detect things, But it is the dowser who does the detecting, the rod or device is merely an indicator. This definition, like science, is an interesting theory, and like science, it cannot explain everything, and is sometimes wrong. Have you ever been wrong? Techowiz • February 2, 2010 9:43 AM Phil, Techowiz • February 17, 2010 6:46 AM The ridiculous GT200 has had an exposure of the UK BBC newsnight programme, see the youtube of the prgramme on my blog at: http://explosivedetectorfrauds.blogspot.com/ regards to all Techowiz • June 9, 2010 11:04 AM Great news the UK cops have finally moved on the fraudster Gary Bolton maker of the ridiculous GT200, see the link for the story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/10269170.stm regards cristeadriana10 • June 24, 2010 7:48 AM There are no proves the device is not working and all this is a campaign against a product that stays in the way of other big business and all the mass media is intoxicated with lies about is. I didn’t see one real undeniable prove regarding miss function of this device. ernst.filibert • July 5, 2010 9:27 AM The technologies used by ADE are Nuclear Quadrupole Resonance which has been used to detect landmines and explosives concealed in luggage all over the world with great success. NQR is a radiofrequency (RF) technique in which the observed frequencies depend on the interaction between the electric quadrupole moment of the nucleus and the electric field gradient generated at the nuclear site by external charges. All common high explosives contain 14 N, a quadrupolar nucleus generating three sets of resonance frequencies, providing an unequivocal method of detecting and identifying an explosive, as well as estimating its quantity and depth. Because of its high specificity there is little or no interference from other nitrogen-containing material that may be present - such as the mine casing or fertilizer in the soil. Techowiz • July 5, 2010 11:01 AM @Cristeadriana10 For your one (and there are lots more) undeniable peice of evidence regarding the misfunction, as you call it, the rest of the world calls it the usual failure, Why did it fail to detect several tons of explosives that passed through, 3, yes 3, as stated by the Iraqi government, checkpoints where the scam device was in operation? A really hard question for you, where is the one credible report, from anywhere in the world that the scam device works? 33comtois • August 11, 2010 3:50 AM @techowiz My friend, we meet again. I'll try to get here the answers for the questions I have asked you on other blogs, on which you failed to answer. Who knows, maybe I'll get lucky on this one. Do you have any knowledge of a scientific test (double blind, triple blind etc) performed on this ade 651 device that proves without any doubt that the device does not work? Supplemental question: if the evidence you claim you have is overwhelmingly turning the scale in favor of an arrest, charge and conviction, then why is this man still free? Thank you. Don't think I'll be hearing from you soon with the answers to these questions, but with more smoke and mirrors. Techowiz • August 19, 2010 11:34 AM @33comtois, The ADE has only been tested by, 33comtois • August 20, 2010 3:58 AM @techowiz Dear mister, Had the NY times, BBC, uk, us performed a double blind, scientifically driven test? If so, the please point you finger in their directions. So, please, come back again when you have depleted your bag of ... smoke and mirrors, so to speak, and have something useful to say actually. Techowiz • August 20, 2010 12:57 PM @33Comtois Having read your post twice still can not find any evidence from you that the ADE works, now for the 101th time please provide your evidence that it works. 33comtois • August 24, 2010 2:35 AM @techowiz Dear sir, As I always said in all my posts, I am not defending a product that I do not know for sure that works or not. You, on the other hand, seem to know for sure that it doesn't. I won't keep count anymore to the times I've asked you for the evidence you have to support your claims, but keep asking you, instead, to provide such evidence. And once more, bbc making a biased report, nytimes publishing a cracker-article and so on, these are not evidence. Evidence is a double-blind test on the device, conducted by scientists. Do you have knowledge of any such test? If so, do tell. And I find it a step forward you actually reading my posts. Please continue to do so and, eventually, you'll realize that I never claimed that I know for sure that this gadget works, but rather challenged your claims that it doesn't. So far you've never stood up to these challenges. An "A" to you, for actually reading my posts and trying "to beat me at my own game". It might be a good exercise to you, but let's stick to the topic. So, in fewer words: please present your evidence for your claims! Techowiz • August 26, 2010 9:46 AM You claim not to be defending the ADE, yet you accept WITHOUT question the claims made by the manufacturer, indeed, you only decided to ask ONE question, and that was when prompted by me. Unlike me, you obviously DO NOT read the posts all the way through, or the fact that they are in English confuses you. 33comtois • August 30, 2010 6:54 AM Dear sir, I apologize if I made you so angry that you began to write with caps and yet started to make so little sense. I'll try to answer as much as I could understand from your previous, most tangled post. 1. I did not accept the claims made by the manufacturer of the ade device, as I do not accept yours. I think you could find more evidence of biased journalism in that broadcast as in other articles in the media, only if you would have watched this broadcast with a clear mind, not a twisted and a poisoned one. As for the fact that you chose to mock me for my English, I think that is says more about you than about me. Very young minds chose mocking in the favor of reason, and while I am able to argue with you in your native language, this can’t be said about you. I think this concludes my argumentation when I say you are not interested in the truth, but in making as many followers in your crusade of hate. I have shown you that I do not hide, and you showed me that you cannot even give a simple straight forward answer: "no, there is no test". Instead, you had to throw some dust along with your answer: "because McCormick has no faith...". There is no test simply because there has never been one performed on this device. If your government (aka UK government) have been tested it and found it not working, they wold have thrown McCormick in jail 50 times by now. Instead, they sufficed to ban it from being used by UK and US armed forces. Techowiz • August 30, 2010 12:24 PM @33 comtois, 33comtois • September 1, 2010 8:38 AM @techowiz I am glad that you mentioned chess in your last post. I am confused, though, that you think you are really playing such game. It takes more than moving your hands over the chess board, in a hocus pocus manner, to play chess, you actually have to move a piece. 33comtois • September 3, 2010 2:09 AM @techowiz Aah, you've finally realized what an embarrassment you are to the others like you and to the common people whom you've convinced with your junk-words? Junk words are just like junk food: tastes good at the beginning, but it eventually make one feel sick. That's goodbye to you then. Techowiz • September 3, 2010 10:25 AM @33comtois 33comtois • September 6, 2010 4:46 AM @techowiz Right! You do know your way with words. But that still does not make you a great "chess player". You write a lot in order to cover the lack of evidence for your statements. It is obvious that you do not have anything to say about this anymore, as you repeat the same proofless allegations over and over again. There is no double blind test performed on this device to prove you right. Period. So, until you have something serious to say, go dig some more chess books.
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