Schneier on Security

Clive Robinson • September 5, 2018 7:20 PM

@ echo,

I have no idea what the resolution would be. I just wondered if this technique could be used like FaceID or Kinect to grab a 3D image of what is near the phone.

Whilst you could get a reasonable range estimate the problem is getting direction. Using two speakers and a single mike, you could build up some information but it would have a cardoid type error response (squashed figure of eight).

To get something acceptable you would need a third source or second detector.

Clive Robinson • September 6, 2018 5:09 AM

@ Alyer Babtu,

I’m thinking a double walled glass chamber with the inner wall acoustically (vacuum ?) and vibrationally isolated from the outer wall and so the larger exterior; put hand and mobile device inside, seal it up, and swipe away

I think what you are trying to describe is a very wide necked thermosflask for taking hot meals or cold deserts to work in.

There is a problem with the idea,

Speakers are used to emit human inaudible acoustic signals and the echo is recorded via microphones, turning the acoustic system of a smart phone into a sonar system.

You need to read it backwards to realise what the actually mean aboit the speakers and microphones.

The point is it’s the phones speakers and mics that are being used so they would all be in the thermos with your hand…

Also it’s not exactly a drop in your pocket item, nor hand/man bag, which is why such items usually come with a fairly large handle attached to the screw top lid or side. Also they are quite fragile at the best of times, aand you would not want your hand in there when it implodes and then shards effectively explode all over the place…

Clive Robinson • September 9, 2018 5:12 PM

@ echo,

… Just in case I also bought disposable plastic ankle high shoe covers.

OK that will get you through an average British Summer, but what have you got for after the biblical fourty days and forty nights, we had a few yrars ago?

Somebody I know has an inflatable canoe in the back of their car, that they actually use quite a bit.

But the point is that technology it’s self is a problem. If you have a watch you can use it as a compass almost anywhere away from the equator and you can use a compass to make a sundial clock. So in a day you have the basis for working out your position on the earths surface and thus be able to navigate your way home. Whilst a mobile phone has a clock and GPS it’s battery is to short lived to be of any real use.

The greed of phone manufactures is such that you can not change the battery on most smart phones these days and those external chargers are very inefficient. Worse some do not function as smart phones without a SIM and working network due to “Cloud Must be Present” issues of the software[1].

Because of this “every things a phone now” idiocy carrying anything other than a wallet and phone is deemed suspicious.

The thing is when I was a youngster carrying a pen knife string and other usefull bits was not a reason to be held by the Police on suspicion of “going equiped to commit a crime” as it is these days in the UK… Under the EU Treaty the right of free trade actually covers you to carry a toolkit, but UK Police especially in the Met will still fight you all the way to court having taken your tools away. And they will conveniently loose or break them just so you get the message.

[1] I won’t name names but some phones have “online predictive spell checkers” that are I suspect an excuse to send every key press you make “Back to the Mother Ship” in China etc. The native applications do not work unless network connected because of this, and you actually have to change the software keyboard to stop the ET Phone Home behaviour even with non native apps…

Clive Robinson • September 10, 2018 7:37 AM

@ echo,

Apart from me i seems nobody noticed the cop, who tazered the old lady for carrying a knife she used to gather dandelion, was carrying a pocket knife.

As I mentioned a few days ago there are loop holes that go back to the early 1800’s where by all that is required for you to be arrested is a police officers suspicions.

The Met Police for instance think this is OK to delegate this to civilians with no training at those moronic “bag check” security points.

A few years ago I happened to be carrying a small tool kit which contained a pocket knife with a blade well within the supposed legal limit. An idiot on a security check point who could barely speak two words of english grabbed my tool kit and as far as I’m concerned stole it. His boss called the police when I tried to retrieve my property and some jumped up Community Police officer turned up. Who had at that time no powers of arrest or for that matter right to collect and hold evidence. This idiot did not know the difference between inches and centimeters and new little or nothing about the law. Unfortunatly instead of doing what I should have done which was retrieve my property and leave I made the mistake of waiting for a police officer with appropriate lawfull authority. From which point it all went down hill.

So no it does not supprise me in the slightest. It is all driven by political incompetence that derives very specifically from the curent UK PM when she was Home office minister.

I know I will probably upset you when I say that she and the previous female prime minister are examples of the certain sorts of people who should never ever be given any kind of power. But worse than that the pair of them have made life incredibly difficult for other female politicians who in effect just get tarred with the same brush, due to the pairs prominence and obvious failings writ large by the media world wide (thus giving impetus to prejudice).

As for your own issues whilst I sympathise a lot having been through a little of what you have been. Other than offering sympathy and very general advice there is little that I or others can do. As you yourself have noted for legal reasons you can not talk about specifics or in some cases even generalities. This sort of gaging as you might have noticed is one way that the authorities have a significant advantage, in that they are given way way greater lee way on public commenting than those actually personally involved in cases.

Unfortunatly there are one or two commenters hear that take advantage of their effective anonymity to make at best unhelpfull if not down right derogatory remarks. You can fairly easily spot them because either they are hiding behind a new “nom de plume”, or have been warned in the past by @Moderator for their behaviour. I see that one has poped up already in the past few hours on another thread, that you have probably seen.

The one thing I have learnt in life is that those who abuse their position, are generally venal in nature and quick to take punitive action to protect not just their possition but their rice bowl. As a general rule they have a vengfull and thugish nature only occasionaly not expressed physically when pushed beyond their immediate cognative limits. That and an inflated feeling of self worth, few if any of these people when in authority, get the censure not only they deserve, but that also acts as a cautionary tale or deterent to others that are likewise minded.

Unfortunatly as you have seen “guard labour” in the UK is a job that few who can find alternative employment would even remotely consider doing. Especially as the current UK PM over sat the defenestration of nearly all police officers that had acted as a balance against the “canteen mentality” types. Another of her cronies and their predecessors over saw a similar scytheing of the armed forces. Thus ripping out needed experience and replacing them with “rent a thug” types that are effectively unemployable in society. Which in effect is a return of the “Black and Tans” and “Auxies”[1] which history shows is an incredibly bad idea. As it could easily become another tie up between guard labour and terrorist organisations again or much much worse corporate thuggery. There is mounting evidence against the Met Police for the latter activities, where they have handed over what is in all probability illegal surveilance to corporations. Like Sony and various construction companies where it ends up in quite illegal databases and some very unplesant organisations like Kroll Ascociates. Thus having dire consequences on many quite peacfull and moderate people who have minimally excercised their right to legitimate peacefull political process. I know that I’ve ended up in more than one of these data bases because the Met Officers realy are not that bright or cautious in their behaviours.

You are far from the only person who wants to leave the UK and take up EU member state citizenship, due to seeing what you are seeing. However the EU does not want UK citizens judging by the barriers they are putting up due to the stupidity of Brexit[2] and UK Government Departments[3].

But the fact that some of what you post does apparently get ignored is that this blog started out as a highly technical blog that developed into one on a slightly more general security blog. However in the past few years various political interests have used the very open nature of this blog to try and push certain agendas that the older blog members know from sometimes bitter experience turn into battle zones. Whilst our host is more permissive than many he has had to clamp down sometimes quite hard. An unwanted but necessary consequence has been a “chilling effect”, the number of posters has considerably diminished some to other invitation only or heavily moderated technical blogs others to just lurking and I assume some have left altogether. Thus many are cautious or sensitive about subjects that are contentious or to far off topic.

[1] The behaviour of the Auxies was absolutly deplorable and the Black and Tans whilst not exactly innocent did get blaimed for many of the Auxies violent criminal actions. Whilst both were suppodadly disolved the Auxies behavioir and tactics got subsumed into the Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC). In the 90’s under Ronnie Flanagan due to politicians the RUC effectively “arms lengthed” the Auxies style behaviour to the Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF) that was a known terrorist organisation, with not unrxpected results. Ronnie in effect got rewarded for his sedition activities. Other members of the RUC close to him got simillarly rewarded for their sedition activities. One went on to the Met Police where he totally mismanaged Operation Ore, and sickeningly is still proud of all the harms he caused not just to adults but the child protection services and the children they were trying to protect. At best they were not just pridefull and sinfull but also seditious and dangerous criminals in all but name.

[2] Way to many UK MP’s are secretly glad about Brexit you can see it in their voting record and lack of support for the EU. Worse many deliberatly conflate the EU with ECHR in the publics eye to thus get anti-EU sentiment, likewise UK Government departments have for many years quite deliberatly implemented EU legislation in the worst possible ways[3]. That’s not to say I’m all for the EU, there are parts such as the Council of Ministers that need to be cut out like the cancer they truly are, likewise those that are growing fat off of the extrodinary rates of corruption in the EU much of which has lead directly to the Euro Crisis. But hidden away behind this is a master economic plan that is little different to that formulated by Nazi Economists, who continued to have significant influance long after WWII ended.

[3] Just one example was DEFRA implementing the worst “slaughter house” rules they could, thus decimating the UK independent slauter houses. The results of which were not just BSE, but Foot and Mouth, and the Horse Meat scandals as a directly linkable result. Oh and the effective decimation of British Farming that is not controled by Agro-Corp.