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who cares if he's dead, vote bill hicks for president! • January 31, 2008 3:28 PM

“They don’t want the voice of reason spoken, folks, ’cause otherwise we’d be free. Otherwise, we wouldn’t believe their fucking horseshit lies, nor the fucking propaganda machine of the mainstream media and buy their horseshit products that we don’t fucking need and become a third world consumer fucking plantation which is what we’re becoming. Fuck them! They are liars and murderers. All governments are liars and murderers, and I am now Jesus, and this is MY compound.” – Bill Hicks, Rant in E-Minor

Grateful Brit • January 31, 2008 4:08 PM

Bruce,

Thank you very much for publishing this! Publicity on your blog will help exposing the weasel ways that our government wants to trick us into accepting an expensive invasion of our dignity and privacy.

Luis • January 31, 2008 6:28 PM

I really don’t see the problem with N-Id cards. When you go (Americans and brits) to a bank to open an account don’t you have to show some kind of trackable id (social security number, drivers licence)? Or when you go to a hospital? Or get arrested? If so Whats the difference between showing the social security number or a N-Id number? I don’t get it.
I would say most EU countrys have N-ID cards.

Anonymous • January 31, 2008 7:23 PM

@Luis

You’re already living under a bad system, so why not make it worse? You’ve already given up some rights, so why not give up more? Other countries have questionable institutions, so why not copy them? You have to submit to some abuse when you’re arrested, so why not submit to it when you’re not arrested too? Not being able to prove your identity can be an inconvenience in some cases, so why not make it a criminal offense? Having your papers in order is neccessary when you get a big loan from a bank, so why not make it neccessary when you buy a loaf of bread?

I understand that you don’t see what’s so bad about these ID schemes, but even before considering the details, you should be able to see that your argument is not strong.

Alistair • January 31, 2008 8:12 PM

@Luis. The problem is not specifically N-Id cards. In the UK we do not have a unique number to identify an individual. So the Government has great problems matching databases from different systems because there isn’t a consistent, reliable key that can be used. The N-Id cards solve that problem by creating an N-Id No which then makes matching data from diverse databases very easy. Good for government, good for enterprise, VERY bad for the British public.

BTW. We do have an NI number which is issued at birth, but this can only be used for Tax issues. Most systems are not allowed to record your NI number.

I wasn’t surprised by this document as the governments actions said as much. At least now when people call me cynical for explaining to them what’s going on around them I can point them to this document to prove I’m not a cynic!

bzelbob • January 31, 2008 9:27 PM

I’d like to point out that the issue seems, to me, to have little to do with the concept of IDs as a whole and more with the fact that governments of UK (and the US too for that matter) think that it is ok to trick and lie to their bosses i.e. “We The People”.

It is NOT ok. Now that we are finding out we’ve been lied to we are hopping mad. We are going to start taking away the powers of the government until it learns to do it’s job honestly.

Nomen Publicus • February 1, 2008 12:42 AM

The UK government has consistently lied about the purposes of their proposed ID card. At first it was all about access to heath services, then it was about terrorism, then identity theft and fraud and now it seems all they want is a world modeled on 1984. At each change of emphasis the flaws in their announced plans have been pointed out by many, including IT and security experts.

Just recently it was leaked that there were plans to force people getting their first driving license to get an ID card first. Just last week it was leaked that teachers and other people who have access to young children will be required to get an ID card.

The UK government now seem to be in full panic mode to get ID cards introduced as soon as possible. I wish they would explain why.

Beta • February 1, 2008 1:24 AM

@bzelbob, Nomen Publicus

Maybe the people of the UK (and the world) will eventually realize that it_doesn’t_matter if the government lies about its reasons for this kind of thing, because the reasons don’t_matter.

A reason (in this sense) is an idea in someone’s head. The argument is “I want ID cards because they will bring X, so if you like X too then you should be in favor of ID cards”. X can be safety, or justice, or chocolate. The person making the argument can be sincere, or lying, or more likely in a mental state where true and false aren’t cleanly divided. But once the ID system is in place, none of that matters.

An ID system brings many things, and fails to bring others; that’s what’s important. Which thing was foremost in someones mind really isn’t. A lie is a transient insult; an ID system, once in place, can outlast a nation.

Luis • February 1, 2008 9:11 AM

@anonymous:
What rights have I given up?
Presenting an foto-Id-Card When I’m arrested doesn’t sound like abuse to me. I would say that it is very reasonable. And it avoids things like the murder who escapted prison by saying he was someone else, its somewhere in this blog.
The only people that can ask for your ID are the authorities, no one else. And even them can only ask you for it in special cases. when you commit a fellony for example, or have your car pulled over. I don’t even recall when was the last time I had to show my ID.

Video cameras on each corner, the Patriot act, The Protect America Act, thats abuse. positively Identifying your self when you commit a fellony, its not.

@Alistar
We also have diferent numbers for diferent things, for exemple: IRS number for taxes, Social security for pensions, Health services Id number and so on.
The N-ID number identifys me as citizen of that country. IRS databases are not connected to SS databases, corporations (with few exceptions) cannot store your N-ID number and so on.

BoBO • February 1, 2008 10:40 AM

Isn’t this the same country that just lost the personal data of 25 millions Brits?! You cannot trust the government to protect your personal id!

Anonymous • February 1, 2008 10:55 AM

@Luis

“The only people that can ask for your ID are the authorities, no one else.”

A lot of people from other EU nations say this in discussions on the topic. However, that’s just plain not the case here if you read the documents. They aren’t just used for dealing with the government. Private commercial entities can reserve the right to refuse business if you don’t provide your National ID (in the proposal, of course).

Beta • February 1, 2008 1:34 PM

@Luis: “What rights have I given up?”

(Sorry, I was “Anonymous” above — I left the Name field blank by mistake.)

Are you referring to my paraphrasing of your argument? Your logic is unclear, but if you want to discuss rights we could start with privacy, travel, and walking down the street without papers.

Anonymous • February 2, 2008 2:22 AM

Is nobody going to question if this “Leaked” document is real or not. No headers, footers, logos, the photocopy lines and smudge in the top corner, just added for effect? (Sure I don’t know internal government document control procedures, so perhaps they don’t put headers & footers on controversial documents). In all reality though I could write a document like this and then put a coffee cup on it, photocopy it, mark it up and then ask the world to “mirror it”, because it’s hot stuff. It would be good publicity for an anti-ID card group. Does anyone know of any news papers that have reported on this yet, I just searched and didn’t find any or any grounds to imply that this isn’t fake?

mikey • February 2, 2008 11:17 PM

This is all in preparation for the coming World Government. Every human in the industrialized world will have a number and a chip implant. If you can make it to the last quarter of zeitgeistmovie.com you will see the scheme.

enigma • February 7, 2008 7:50 AM

@anonymous (2.22)

On the question of authenticity, does it really matter?

It’s so close to their ridiculous insistance on forcing the UK population to carry them that even if it were a fake, the government would probably take credit for it and adopt its ideas as their own.

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