Comments for Experimental Results: Liars and Outliers Trust Offer

Comment from Wael on 2013-02-23

2013-02-23T18:37:57Z

@ Bruce,

My review:
http://www.amazon.com/review/R209HQJ2W8QNEM

Thanks for your patience.
I have fulfilled my end of the deal.

Comment from wael on 2013-02-14

2013-02-14T06:35:45Z

I am sorry Bruce. Still working on it -- but almost done. In the beginning it seemed like an easy read, but it turned out to be not so.

Comment from iulian on 2013-02-07

2013-02-07T17:58:38Z

The issue with the book delivery was finaly sorted out. Thanks to everyone involved.

Comment from Gary P on 2013-02-02

2013-02-02T19:08:41Z

I wanted (and still do) a copy of the book, but realized that I had no time to read it. My choice was not to ask for the copy... I guess I should have since there is no time limit, but I would feel a "self imposed" commitment until I did the review. I am an outlier!

Comment from lo-t on 2013-01-29

2013-01-29T12:11:09Z

Finally managed to read it. Here is my take:

http://www.amazon.de/review/RUXPDWEIPVDLY/...

Comment from notmyopinion on 2013-01-21

2013-01-21T10:54:16Z

@ Freiheit, @bob, @Andrew J. Caines: I completely agree about the note style (and the notes on notes) - it's really difficult to follow, and requires huge amounts of page flipping, multiple bookmarks, etc.

@Bruce - "it's the style" in [some?] US Universities, but not necessarily elsewhere. Maybe you should, as a service to your readers, defect and improve the way footnotes are done. We really need more defectors from this insane group norm :)

And thanks for the book - a thought-provoking read.

Comment from jacob on 2013-01-18

2013-01-18T19:29:35Z

Sorry Bruce I was too busy at the time to even take you up on your offer. I do intend to buy it soon. BTW I have read your cryptography tome about a dozen times cover to cover and countless lookups. classic :) kind of like the old rainbow books and now the newer guidelines. Almost makes me cringe when a new hack/crack comes out. You then have to decipher or translate application language per government requirements for customers. Your books and articles are something that I WILL look at, among others, in application situations.

Just like the TWIC thing caught my eye. PKI, credentialling paperwork... What does it mean for people kind of thing.
sigh.

I may send you for outliers a writeup then. Intending to take a couple of days off soon. (very rare for me) When your hobby is your work......

Comment from John G on 2013-01-18

2013-01-18T11:28:12Z

I bought the book and its themes became one of the main lines of argument in a lecture I gave at a law school and will be a serious influence in the law review article I am going to turn that into. So not a book review but a serious (if anyone reads it) use of your ideas, attributed, in the discussion of the limits of legislation in creating trust for legal purposes. Very interesting.

Those who got the book intending to read and review it but .... not yet, have my sympathy. The book sat on my table for some months, and without the deadline of the lecture, it might still be there. I have some excellent books in my bedside pile...

I may be at RSA this year, and though I have the book, I'd be happy to get another to give to my host in San Francisco!

Thanks for exploring this line of thought.

Comment from Orontes on 2013-01-18

2013-01-18T06:55:41Z

It is already midnight when I read the "complaints" of the friendly and generous - because he is, in truth - Bruce Schneier ...I laugh at the story!

And more I laughing with the "apologies" of his mischievous readers!

A cybersecurity expert cheated on the Web ... And a crowd of shameless disciples did not hesitate to take advantage of the nobility of his teacher: It is a beautiful picture of our times so marked by commercial transactions via the Internet.

PS / I thought do the same thing what these readers did, but I refrained because I intuited that would not be meaningful ... XD

Comment from David Leppik on 2013-01-16

2013-01-16T20:53:48Z

I was wondering if this was some sort of psychological experiment (and yes, I did write a review.) The main effect of requiring a review was that I actually sat down and read the whole thing in a timely manner... rather than just letting it gather dust for a few months or years on the assumption that I already knew everything from reading this blog.

I'm currently reading Dawkins' The Selfish Gene which has a lot in common, despite being a book on genetics from the 1970s. Many of the themes are the same, and like Liars and Outliers, the current edition has much of its material relegated to endnotes, thus requiring two bookmarks to read.

Comment from Craig Cox on 2013-01-16

2013-01-16T20:20:58Z

The review is forthcoming; I have read the book and view it favorably; the medium in which I intend to publish hasn't become available as fast as I'd like.

Bruce, do you have any time to read fiction, just for pleasure? If yes, I'd recommend to your attention O'Brian's "Master and Commander" (first in a series). He offers an example of your thesis in the Dillon character, described at one point by another character as being "compelled to play Judas Iscariot with either his right hand or his left." Your themes are explored further later in the book, although of course it was not the main point of the story.

Comment from JohnP on 2013-01-15

2013-01-15T21:41:31Z

I don't read paper books anymore. Give me epub or nothing.

Comment from Iulian on 2013-01-15

2013-01-15T16:14:43Z

While it's very easy to pinpoint others when they do not keep they're promises I would like to bring to your attention that you are falling, in my case, in the category you mention.
My wife bought the book but the book never got delivered. We wrote several emails without any success in getting the information of what happened and it has been around 6 months.
Wish it could be fixed. I can provide the specifics (date of purchase, etc.) if needed privately.

Comment from Kim on 2013-01-15

2013-01-15T14:57:46Z

I have read part of the book but haven't finished it yet. I am also one of those people who have been extremely busy and I have felt very guilty about taking so long to get it done and write the review. I do intend to if it's not too late. Currently I am in a grad school class on terrorism which is eating up most of my time outside of work.

Comment from Geoff on 2013-01-15

2013-01-15T14:41:26Z

OK, it worked, whether you're aiming at shaming (sorry...) or not. I'm about a third of the way through reading it, and there will be a review, on my blog, but probably not for another couple of weeks. But I'll admit I never noticed the promise to write a review in the first place. Of course, that's because I didn't read carefully enough.
Now back to crafting GLBA policy. Sigh...

Comment from Kris on 2013-01-14

2013-01-14T23:13:56Z

My apologies Bruce. I have been one of the procrastinators, although I never had the intention to betray your trust. I am still committed to writing a review, but probably it would not be very soon.

Comment from Bruce Clement on 2013-01-14

2013-01-14T23:05:23Z

@Robert R
"I think it's one of the most important books to be published in the 21st century so far. Liars and Outliers should be required reading by our policy makers."

If you are a social media user tweet this, put it on your facebook or Linked In status etc ...

Comment from Robert R. on 2013-01-14

2013-01-14T22:12:53Z

There are 130 comments here, and I haven't read them all, so as one of the defectors here's my reason for not writing a review (yet, or maybe ever) :

I'm not sure I have anything to say
about Bruce's awesome book that
hasn't been said already.

That, and I was always lousy at writing book reports. And the "busy" thing; I'm writing my own book at the moment, and looking for work. There's a lot of things I haven't gotten around to.

It was never my intent to cheat Bruce out of an extra $14. If I had anything original to add, I would have gladly done so, because I think it's one of the most important books to be published in the 21st century so far. Liars and Outliers should be required reading by our policy makers.

Comment from RSaunders on 2013-01-14

2013-01-14T22:01:02Z

Wow, I don't always read all the comments on a post. I only read this one after the update. I took the 9% figure as "pretty good". OK, the security world is smaller than some of the other folks that have done this experiment, but I thought 9% was a good turnout. In shareware programs without crippling or nagware reminders, 3-5% of users will send you $10 electronically. Writing a thoughtful review and reading a book is asking for a much larger commitment from the recipient, and Bruce got 2-3 times the going rate of return.

What's interesting, in terms of the book, is that faced with lower than should reasonable expected level of cheating, a little "nudge" comment caused a huge reputation pressure response. At least that's how I took the "don't call me out for not writing a review" comments. I guess that officially scores our community as "Small", per figure 7. I had a different notion of small in my head before this experiment.

Comment from JRD on 2013-01-14

2013-01-14T20:42:22Z

I avoided the offer precisely because I knew I wouldn't get around to writing the review. Opps.

Comment from Z.Lozinski on 2013-01-14

2013-01-14T19:46:24Z

Interesting. Bruce's post has got me feeling guilty too. But not for the obvious reason.

I was in the fortunate position of being able to afford the book at Amazon's base price, rather than needing Bruce's discount as an incentive to buy it. While I would have liked a signed copy, I felt that reducing the number of copies available to people who might not otherwise read it, or to poor grad students, was unfair.

So why am I feeling guilty? Well, the book contains an important set of ideas. Some I agree with, some I don't. But I haven't posted a review in some public forum (Amazon / Goodreads) to make this point publicly. And that is the part of a bargain with a good writer (discounted or not) where I have failed.

Comment from RH on 2013-01-14

2013-01-14T19:17:30Z

9% eh?

Would that make those who complied the outliers?

I didn't take the offer, but some feedback: I'm actually struggling a bit through the early parts of the book. The early chapters offered me no new information (I'm a long-time follower, so most of the overarching arguments one makes in early chapters of a book are old news), but was speckled with terms that I knew I had to learn to be comfortable in the rest of the book. The net result was that I felt like I was studying a textbook, cramming for a quiz next morning. Reading has gotten more comfortable as the analysis became more detailed, in a strange sort of way.

Comment from Random832 on 2013-01-14

2013-01-14T17:32:15Z

> One person wrote to tell me that he didn't like the book, and offered not to publish a review despite the agreement.

I think this is the most interesting thing in this post, because it suggests the offer was interpreted - even if it was not intended that way - as a discount in exchange for a _positive_ review. It makes me wonder how many other people interpreted it that way.

There's a possible parallel to this in laws which make it illegal to offer to pay someone _to vote_, even without specifying which way to vote.

Comment from DF on 2013-01-14

2013-01-14T17:00:14Z

I am also one of the slow/busier with other things readers and just haven't finished the book yet but I will post a review as soon as I finish it.

Comment from Brian on 2013-01-14

2013-01-14T14:06:25Z

I'm another of the unintentional defectors that failed to provide a review. I could sob story about all that's come up in the meantime, but please know I'm still intending to do so. I'm about 40% of the way through and also reading the notes inline (and I strongly second - or third - the requests to publishers to not do this!)

Comment from Stanislav GE on 2013-01-14

2013-01-14T12:12:55Z

Here's an interesting question for you Bruce. How do you feel about your books being available as pirated epub and pdfs on the internet? A quick search on a site I frequently use for downloading books (link to said site not posted because I don't want anyone to think this is spam and I'm not trying to aid and abet more people to "steal" books) and I was able to locate your latest work. Does the simple fact that it's out there for free and people are downloading it offend you ? Are you more just happy to see that people want to read the book, whether or not they can afford it? Are you in the "downloading X work steals from me" camp? Or are you in the "people who downloaded X work probably wren't going to drop the money anyways and at least people are interested in reading it, despite me not being paid" camp?

I have downloaded this book too. I never buy "copies" on Amazon or wherever. But this book is realy good! I would like say "thank you" and to pay, but, as I already said, not for Amazon or whatever. Any way to proceed?

Comment from Jackie on 2013-01-14

2013-01-14T07:54:22Z

Reviews are often confused with book reports.

Given that there are several comprehensive reviews already available people need not write long, involved essays.

I didn't buy a book direct, I missed the offer. I read it first at my online library (paid subscription). And then ordered a hard copy elsewhere. Great book.

Comment from John on 2013-01-13

2013-01-14T02:15:22Z

You may have intended to perform an experiment in trust, but I reckon you inadvertently performed one in our inability to predict in advance how motivated we will be to perform some task in the future.

You've found the same thing that gets found when people are asked which of a highbrow versus a fun movie people will watch some time in the future. And so on.

Comment from Chris on 2013-01-13

2013-01-14T01:18:58Z

I paid full price because I knew I wouldn't get round to writing a review.
If I had still been a poor student I probably would have taken the offer and felt the tiniest pang of remorse.

Comment from Vles on 2013-01-13

2013-01-13T13:52:14Z

Wow, look at the amount of comments in such a short time period... ;)

Comment from Jeff Day on 2013-01-13

2013-01-13T06:30:40Z

I got the book through this offer and haven't finished it yet. I'm about 1/3 of the way in, but other technical books keep cropping up that take precedence because of prior commitments.

Comment from trapspam.honeypot on 2013-01-12

2013-01-13T02:32:07Z

I feel bad that I did not take up your offer on your latest book. Since reading Secrets and Lies I have developed macular degeneration in both eyes and have difficulty reading print copy. I have had about five years of Avastin injections that have prevented permanent blindness. No complaints there.

Comment from bob on 2013-01-12

2013-01-12T20:05:00Z

Heavy books can take a while to get through, especially if one reads a lot.

I've been reading "Godel, Escher, Bach" for over a year now...

Comment from bob on 2013-01-12

2013-01-12T20:02:34Z

Freiheit said "I also found the notes format ... extremely annoying .. Publishers - stop doing this!"

Plus 1.

Comment from -B on 2013-01-12

2013-01-12T19:04:08Z

I also got an initial release (autographed) copy for myself. The crypto code had me scratching my head for a bit.

Comment from Miguel Farah on 2013-01-12

2013-01-12T16:16:49Z

Well, I considered taking up the offer, but chose not to, because I knew I'd probably end up not doing the review. I wonder how many others were in the same position?

Comment from Dylan on 2013-01-12

2013-01-12T11:00:10Z

I've actually got two copies, a review copy, and an e-book version. I prefer the e-book for physical reasons, and find the notes work well with it (despite what was mentioned above.)

Despite having two copies, I haven't finished the book yet, which is why I haven't reviewed it.

Comment from VO on 2013-01-12

2013-01-12T09:54:09Z

Isn't it ironic that shipping (some of) the books was massively delayed? I am sure there were valid reasons - same as with everyone who was late with their reviews.

Comment from Erica on 2013-01-12

2013-01-12T09:49:51Z

I didn't take advantage of the offer because I knew I would not have the time to write a review.

Do people like myself outnumber the 700 or so who (so far) have done the opposite?

To get accurate trust statistics, it'd help to know.

Comment from Secure on 2013-01-12

2013-01-12T08:40:16Z

@Bruce:

"I said in the e-mail."

Was it the very first task in the mail, better yet the very first sentence? You know, most people don't do the tasks (or even read) beyond this. If you want them to do multiple tasks, write separate mails for each. ;)

Comment from Stateless on 2013-01-12

2013-01-12T07:56:43Z

Next time offer an option where I can pay a premium to get the book but not be required to write a review and I'll go with that, I'm happy to pay more and if I could pay by bitcoin that would be even better.

Comment from mcb on 2013-01-12

2013-01-12T06:33:54Z

Bruce,

I am unrepentant and remain committed to the bargain. I planned to read 40 books in 2012 (I managed 39).

Liars and Outliers was added to my the list as a result of your generous promotion. You got close one night, as I dithered between it or Bultmann's

Kerygma and Myth, but I defaulted to NetFlix and watched Battleship Potempkin for the first time instead of starting either.

Liars and Outliers will be the first non-fiction I start in 2013. There are a finite number of books we will have time to read; get started.

Details here http://eclecticbreakfast.blogspot.com/2013/01/...

Comment from Framework4 on 2013-01-11

2013-01-12T05:56:57Z

I did not take you up on this offer because I find your writing on these type of topics requires me to read a little, think about it and come back and read some more.

It is not like a novel that one reads over a couple of days, your writing requires us to stop and use our brains.

That said a 9% response rate is huge in publishing terms.

Comment from -B on 2013-01-11

2013-01-12T05:37:13Z

>From what I can see $11 for "ANY" book is too much .. considering 90%+ of the "value" of your technology is being generated by the work of FSF .. open source etc. etc.

I don't think most people who bought the book for $11 saw it anything but a technique to sell more books .. (which it actually was .. getting more reviews .. more sales etc. . you want it to be exponential function .. but it just is a normal linear .. oye wei)

Regardless of your rationalizations, it was bought at the discount knowing the expectation. Buying without any intent of of letting others know about it seems (at least) disingenuous. My "pay it forward" meets the intent (IMO) and more since the 3-letter agency deals with the traveling public and the management of my business line could (possibly) affect security practices within IT.

Comment from -B on 2013-01-11

2013-01-12T02:28:43Z

As one who received this "gift", I chose not to write a review in some venue that would have marginal impact on either potential new readers. Instead, I donated it to the Management of a major federal 3-letter Administration with the agreement from the Manager I gave it to, to read it, consider it's material, and pass it on to another Manager with the same agreement.

My hope is that it will end up with a much more significant impact than a review by an unknown (me) in a venue of questionable significance (web forum, etc.).

A "pay it forward" viral effort.

Comment from ben on 2013-01-11

2013-01-12T01:55:03Z

I am one of the people who took the offer and has yet to review the book, and I don't see this as a shaming attempt at all. I just hope that once I do finish the book and write my review you won't think I only did it because of this post. :-)

Comment from sms on 2013-01-11

2013-01-12T01:29:53Z

From what I can see $11 for "ANY" book is too much .. considering 90%+ of the "value" of your technology is being generated by the work of FSF .. open source etc. etc.

Comment from Nick P on 2013-01-11

2013-01-12T01:02:37Z

Maybe I'll finally buy it and do a review. It's getting pretty cheap on Amazon at $8.

Comment from Bruce Clement on 2013-01-11

2013-01-12T00:49:11Z

@Carl 'SAI' Mitchell

I'm in a similar position. I decided not to take Bruce Schneier up on the offer because I know my book reading habits well enough to know in advance that while I might read the book quickly, I was more likely to finish reading the book some time after the copies that didn't sell as "remainers" were pulped.

Although it wouldn't be as objective a measure as counting those who received the book and haven't done a review yet, it would be interesting to know how many others declined the offer because they knew or strongly suspected they wouldn't publish a review in a reasonably short time.

Comment from Bob Foster on 2013-01-11

2013-01-12T00:43:31Z

Contrast your approach with what happens when you agree to do a technical review of a book for an actual publisher. First, they will try to make you sign a contract in return for some minuscule stipend they may or may not pay at some far future time. Second, they will establish a regular schedule for chapter reviews. Third, they will constantly (and cheerfully) nag you with schedule reminders, etc. for the life of the project.

I think the old management adage has an application here: Trust, but verify.